Massive use of foreign cards

[SteveP]

EDIT: Sorry if I upset some people with this topic. I do feel strongly that players should strive to use local language cards at local tournaments, but that's my personal opinion, and I should NOT have suggested that players/judges who don't share my opinion are somehow cheating or taking advantage of loop-holes. I still think that judges should scrutinize players who use excessive amounts of foreign language cards to verify that no advantage is being gained, big or small, intentional or not.

I have great respect for those who've dedicated vast amounts of time and money in Pokemon Organized Play. We'll always have our differences, but in the end, we all have one thing in common - our love of the game.


At a recent US premier tournament, we had one American player using a deck that had all Japanese cards except about a half-dozen English cards. As a judge, my initial reaction was that the player was doing this in order to try to gain an advantage. Obviously, this would be cheating (see POP Tourney Rules quote below).

If a judge determines that a player is using non-local language cards and/or misprinted cards to gain an advantage, that player will be subject to the Cheating section of the POP Penalty Guidelines.

I was very close to ruling against this player for using so many foreign language cards, but when I found out that one of the main judges had actually constructed this deck for this younger player, I refrained.

If I had to do it over again, and I were the Head Judge, I'd definately rule the deck was an attempt to gain an advantage. IMO, the majority of the cards in a player's deck should be local language, unless he just spent the last 10 years in Japan or something.

 

[Spirit Of Mew]

If I where a judge I would have ruled it illegal a few foreign cards are okay but almost a whole deck that's rediculous

 

[Magic_Umbreon]

Isn't the quantity of different cards more important than just the quantity?

So using 10% of your deck foreign might be considered unreasonable but if it's 4 of one card and 2 of another, your opponent only has 2 carddex entries to check. Which is hardly an advantage.

 

[Rainbowgym]

LOL , we use complete Japanese decks sometime.
Serious there is no rule forbidding this as long as you can provide translations/card ex prints.

There is NO advantage in playing foreign card, please come on what are we talking about.
Sometimes it's much cheaper to get the Japanese cards, which is the main reason a lot of people do use them.

 

[SteveP]

LOL , we use complete Japanese decks sometime.
Serious there is no rule forbidding this as long as you can provide translations/card ex prints.

There is NO advantage in playing foreign card, please come on what are we talking about.
Sometimes it's much cheaper to get the Japanese cards, which is the main reason a lot of people do use them.

You need to read the POP Tournament Rules. It IS considered cheating if there's a perceived advantage. It has nothing to do with what's cheaper. It's all about playing with readable and correct versions of cards.

I have no problem with using a few foreign language cards. But excessive use is suspicious.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

Isn't the quantity of different cards more important than just the quantity?

So using 10% of your deck foreign might be considered unreasonable but if it's 4 of one card and 2 of another, your opponent only has 2 carddex entries to check. Which is hardly an advantage.

This particular player had 20+ different cards.

 

[drmario]

You need to read the POP Tournament Rules. It IS considered cheating if there's a perceived advantage. It has nothing to do with what's cheaper. It's all about playing with readable and correct versions of cards.

I have no problem with using a few foreign language cards. But excessive use is suspicious.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:


This particular player had 20+ different cards.

If the POP tournament rules allows foreign language cards there should not be a limit. It can be easier to get foreign language cards since they usually are cheaper. It can cost a lot of money to make a good deck and if someone is using foreign language cards to save some money the so be it.

 

[Lawman]

SteveP: I was judging a State or Regional last year I believe. This player came in for deck check with 75-80% of the deck in japenese. It does make it hard for the staff and the other players to go thru multiple card dexs or outside ref's. He had outside english cards for all the japanese cards. I made him switch out all the japanese cards that were singletons. Why have 2 cards when you have the 1 ENGLISH one for your deck??!!?? On the cards that had multiples in the deck, I didnt make him go get english versions for all of those, so I left those in.

Keith

 

[SteveP]

If the POP tournament rules allows foreign language cards there should not be a limit. It can be easier to get foreign language cards since they usually are cheaper. It can cost a lot of money to make a good deck and if someone is using foreign language cards to save some money the so be it.

We need to be careful here. Excessive mis-use of this allowance could lead to YuGiOh-like practices where NO foreign cards are allowed.

The rules allow foreign cards WITH the caveat I quoted in my first post. Their use CANNOT cause any advantage. That's my argument here. I don't want to rule out the use of foreign language cards.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

SteveP: I was judging a State or Regional last year I believe. This player came in for deck check with 75-80% of the deck in japenese. It does make it hard for the staff and the other players to go thru multiple card dexs or outside ref's. He had outside english cards for all the japanese cards. I made him switch out all the japanese cards that were singletons. Why have 2 cards when you have the 1 ENGLISH one for your deck??!!?? On the cards that had multiples in the deck, I didnt make him go get english versions for all of those, so I left those in.

Keith

Good remedy Keith. I wish I had thought of that one.

 

[Dark Weedle]

i dont see why this is a problem at all as long as he has translations

 

[SteveP]

i dont see why this is a problem at all as long as he has translations

Let me elaborate a few the problems:
1. Where do you put all the translation cards? This player had about a dozen translations partially overing his stadiums, prizes, and other in-play cards. There was NOT enough table space.
2. How much extra time does it take to play? Retrieving and reading the translations takes away from game time.
3. While the opponent is spending time reading translations, his opponent might be taking actions, thereby distracting his opponent and gaining an advantage.

 

[ShadowGuard]

If a judge determines that a player is using non-local language cards
and/or misprinted cards to gain an advantage, that player will be subject to
the Cheating section of the POP Penalty Guidelines.

This refers players who intentionally mistranslate the card text in order to cheat unexperienced players.
There also is an example in the penality guidelines about manipulated carddex references.


There are some other reasons for players to use Japanese cards even if they own the same card in English:
- they like Japanese cards because Pokémon comes from Japan (or any other reason)
- they feel cool to use them and want to show what great players they are (this is what I think when I see that many players in my country using Japanese Gallades etc)
- they have their English cards in other decks and don't want to change all the time


And, as already mentioned, Japanese cards are less expensive if you buy booster boxes, because each booster containes a holo card and there are 2-3 Lv.X per display. (PUI should increase the Lv.X and holo rate outside Japan to encourage using of local language cards.)

It also often happens that important tournaments are only short time after the release of a new set (German and Netherland Nationals!), so we are forced to import cards early if we want to play cards from the new set. Anyone who wants to play a deck with 2 Leafeon Lv.X or 2 Garchomp Lv.X for any reason doesn't want to have only 10 days to get these cards.

 

[Rainbowgym]

Let me elaborate a few the problems:
1. Where do you put all the translation cards? This player had about a dozen translations partially overing his stadiums, prizes, and other in-play cards. There was NOT enough table space.
Small binder, all cards in them should not take that much space.
2. How much extra time does it take to play? Retrieving and reading the translations takes away from game time.
Reading translations?? Tell my how many times does a English speaking person really reads an English language card during a tournament? So suddenly people need to read a XX translation while normally they never do??
Just curious about which cards we are talking anyway. If they are "not seen so much" I can understand a bit, but if they are Japanese cards like Gallade/Gardevoir/Banette/Magmortar I can only laugh.
3. While the opponent is spending time reading translations, his opponent might be taking actions, thereby distracting his opponent and gaining an advantage.
You can ask your opponent to wait until you have read the translations, I think this is legal to ask.

This is almost to funny for words, I attended an NA regionals, while I could have had a complete German/French LEGAL deck. Would my opponents have been in a disadvantage because of that?
I don't think so.

IN Europe cards are made in 4 different languages, people travel to different countries and NEVER I heard anybody complaining about "it takes to much time to read the translations".

 

[SteveP]

This refers players who intentionally mistranslate the card text in order to cheat unexperienced players.
There also is an example in the penality guidelines about manipulated carddex references.

How can you mistranslate a foreign card if you provide translations? Misrepresenting a card's text is a different form of cheating.

There are some other reasons for players to use Japanese cards even if they own the same card in English:
- they like Japanese cards because Pokémon comes from Japan (or any other reason
- they feel cool to use them and want to show what great players they are (this is what I think when I see that many players in my country using Japanese Gallades etc
- they have their English cards in other decks and don't want to change all the time

And, as already mentioned, Japanese cards are less expensive if you buy booster boxes, because each booster containes a holo card and there are 2-3 Lv.X per display. (PUI should increase the Lv.X and holo rate outside Japan to encourage using of local language cards

It also often happens that important tournaments are only short time after the release of a new set (German and Netherland Nationals!), so we are forced to import cards early if we want to play cards from the new set. Anyone who wants to play a deck with 2 Leafeon Lv.X or 2 Garchomp Lv.X for any reason doesn't want to have only 10 days to get these cards.

I don't rule out valid reasons to use the cards. However, if a judge feels someone is gaining an advantage by using them excessively, no reason is justified.

 

[drmario]

This is almost to funny for words, I attended an NA regionals, while I could have had a complete German/French LEGAL deck. Would my opponents have been in a disadvantage because of that?
I don't think so.

IN Europe cards are made in 4 different languages, people travel to different countries and NEVER I heard anybody complaining about "it takes to much time to read the translations".

I agree. How is picking up a translation to read it any different from picking up an English card to read it?

 

[SteveP]

This is almost to funny for words, I attended an NA regionals, while I could have had a complete German/French LEGAL deck. Would my opponents have been in a disadvantage because of that?
I don't think so.

I'm not talking about multi-lingual tournaments. Plus, if you played in NA, you MUST have all the English translations. And, if the foreign language is your native tongue, I see no problem.

I'm talking about players who choose to use foreign cards that are neither native to themselves nor to the tournament location.

 

[Muscovy Level X]

I agree with you. It's not fair to rely on your opponent to tell the truth, since that's probably the main reason people use all different languages. There's just too many excuses for incorrect actions. And you can't counter a card well if you don't even know what it does.

 

[SteveP]

I agree. How is picking up a translation to read it any different from picking up an English card to read it?

Don't lose focus of my topic about MASSIVE use of foreign cards. Having a dozen cards sitting off to the side of the playing field to look at rather than the cards in play IS different.

 

[Rainbowgym]

For me there are NO cards in my Native language at all (neither for all of those kids in my country).
None of them has problems with playing, even if they cannot read ANY card.
So why is this different elsewere.

The only advantage that document is refering to, was the mistranslation of some foreign cards in the past.
There were some cards really mistranslated which could give you an advantage if you didn't use any translation/cardex.

 

[evil psyduck]

Would be very easy for them to use the deck as a way stall.

 

[SteveP]

Also, this player originally had a small binder with all the translations. It took much time, was distracting, and had the potential for cheating, each time he laid down his hand, opened his binder, and retrieved a card.

With so many translation cards and actual-played cards in the play area, it was indeed very distracting and confusing for me as a judge. There is really no need for this massive use of foreign cards in serious competition.