empoleonperson
Active Member
Which one would be better next season with Leafeon Lvx? With no dres or holon castforms magmortars harder to play but it just works much better with leafeon lvx. So what do you think would work better?
Blissey Or Magmortar?
- Thread starter empoleonperson
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Blaziken 1111
Active Member
magmortar becasue you have spread and bench damage.
vanderbilt_grad
New Member
Mags will handle many Kingdra counter decks a lot better than Blissey will ... but will be useless against Kingdra itself which will be heavily played. Overall I say neither.
Magmortar is slightly better with Leafeon than Blissey. The healing, spread, and snipe along with scale damage from two different attackers outclasses Blissey.
Not to knock Blissey, though. I think it will see some play, it's just that the Leafeon variants won't be as good as the ones with Magmortar.
Not to knock Blissey, though. I think it will see some play, it's just that the Leafeon variants won't be as good as the ones with Magmortar.
ShinySwampert
New Member
Of those two, I'd choose Blissey.
But, mark my words, Grass will rule the next format. Sceptile is the man.
Forget Magmortar. Tangrowth+Energy Forcing+Wild Growth>>>>>Magmortar if you're trying to snipe. 80 to any one of your opponent's Pokemon for 4 with no drawbacks? 120 for 6? 160 for 8? It's all possible with Tangrowth, and Leafeon Lv. X make easy to stack those energies on Tangy, while attacking for ridiculous amounts of damage. Let leafeon die after it's scored 2-3 knockouts. Tangrowth just cleans up what's left. Add Dawn Stadium for the "Flame Body" effect, not that you'll need it much. On top of that, it resists Water, which will also be huge next format.
Add Shaymin Lv.X when IFDS comes out, and your opponent has little chance of stopping Tangrowth. Go Grass.
But, mark my words, Grass will rule the next format. Sceptile is the man.
Forget Magmortar. Tangrowth+Energy Forcing+Wild Growth>>>>>Magmortar if you're trying to snipe. 80 to any one of your opponent's Pokemon for 4 with no drawbacks? 120 for 6? 160 for 8? It's all possible with Tangrowth, and Leafeon Lv. X make easy to stack those energies on Tangy, while attacking for ridiculous amounts of damage. Let leafeon die after it's scored 2-3 knockouts. Tangrowth just cleans up what's left. Add Dawn Stadium for the "Flame Body" effect, not that you'll need it much. On top of that, it resists Water, which will also be huge next format.
Add Shaymin Lv.X when IFDS comes out, and your opponent has little chance of stopping Tangrowth. Go Grass.
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Blaziken 1111
Active Member
Weakness means nothing. For your water matchup you can just play bubble coat or just attack with leafeon. Leafeon beats kingdra. Blissey can barly kill anything. To do 100 damage it needs 8 energy for mag 5.
ShinySwampert
New Member
Bubble Coat will only save you for one turn. Not enough IMO. With Kingdra's Speed, if you manage to kill one, it will come back soon, and it will KO you when it does. Leafeon Lv. X could save it, but with Leaf Guard, not Verdant Dance, which IMO is a slower version of Happy Chance, unless you use Sceptile GE (in which case, it OHKOs all over the place.)
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Naki Feralkin
New Member
Mags is a ton better in this particular combo. I've tried Leafeon with Blissey and it just can't stay strong. Mags is a lot better with Leafeon than Blissey is.
When combo'd efficiently, Blissey can be a powerhouse. Who cares about 100 damage for how much energy? The issue is how consistent the damage output is while still being able to take damage, which Blissey does very well.
When combo'd efficiently, Blissey can be a powerhouse. Who cares about 100 damage for how much energy? The issue is how consistent the damage output is while still being able to take damage, which Blissey does very well.
Blaziken 1111
Active Member
Your saying sceptile is better then your wrong. It's a stage 2. You need to play rare candy just so you can get extra attack power while magmortar already has that power. Whats wrong with using leaf guard. It hurts kingdra a lot. Also Verdant dance is not a slwoer happy chance becasue it already does an extra 10 damge plus leaf has it's power. If leaf does die then you can just bring up another leaf and the only loss is 2 or 3 energy in play . With espeon in play kingdra has to get 17 energy in the discard to kill a leafeon that just did leaf guard. Leafeon can 2 shot a kingdra with leaf guard and how many times does kingdra need to attack to kill a leafeon. True when 1 kingdra dies another one comes up but the same with leafeon and leafeon is harder to kill. Don't forget that kingdra needs a lot of support from claydol to win and mag can just kill a claydol. Good mag leaf players will be able to get a fast leaf up. Sceptile, tangowth is a slow deck especially with claydol. Also what makes you so sure that ever kingdra list will be consitent and fast. With GG anyone could play it or make it but it took a lot of skill to make a fast consistent list and be able to play it. Same with kingdra. It's even harder with kingdra because kingdra doesn't have as much support as gardy does.
You shouldn't not play mag just because of kingdra becasue it you do play kingdra just use leafeon to attack.
You shouldn't not play mag just because of kingdra becasue it you do play kingdra just use leafeon to attack.
ShinySwampert
New Member
It isn't THAT hard to get a Sceptile out. 4-2-4 Sceptile with 4 Rare Candy usually gets Sceptile out Turn 2, or 1 if you're lucky. Leafeon Lv. X cannot be played before Turn 2, and in MagLeaf it has to be active, then retreated. Claydol only slows Leaftile down.
Verdant Dance is slower version of Happy Chance because Leafeon Lv.X is a Lv. X. It can only be played T-2 with a Candy, and in decks that don't use Candy, it can't be played before T3. By then, Blissey has already KOed it.
If my memory serves me correctly, Kingdra has 130 HP. That means it's a 3HKO for Leaf Guard. I never said Leafeon wouldn't help against Kingra. However, because Leafeon it is a Lv. X, Kingdra can easily out-speed it. Like Sceptile, Kingdra can be out by T-1. Leafeon Lv. X is a minimum turn 2-3.
I'm not saying every Kingdra deck will be fast, but Kingdra itself is inherently faster than Gardevoir or Gallade. 4-2-4 Kingdra with Rare Candy and support (No Telepass necessary) will set up fast, and attack fast (faster than GG, even if Kingdra were in today's metagame.)
empoleonperson
Active Member
Okay kingdra does 20 a turn. WIth leaf guard and add in espeon and there pretty much dead. as long as they dont donk you. and who says i dont play pluspowers to 2hko kingdra? And 4-2-4 sceptile lol. dude and no claydol come on what are you going to do with 4 sceptiles 2 at most and at least.
ShinySwampert
New Member
That is, if they only play Kingdra/Water Types, which they most likely won't.
For Tangrowth to do good damage, fast, Sceptile has to be set up, fast. 4-2-4 with 3-3 Tang works. This isn't Torterrible. With the Omastar/Wager combo present, having a bunch of Sceptiles in your deck isn't a bad idea, not to mention the fact that with 100HP, it's easily sniped, and without it in play, the deck doesn't work. Claydol makes the deck run slower, and takes up bench space. I'd rather run more Supporters and risk getting Telepassed. They'll just Wager/Psychic Lock you anyway.
Be brave and try not running Claydol in a deck. It pays in this situation. Power Whipping your opponent's Claydol to death by T3 hurts them a lot, and it only gets worse from there. They won't be able to set up anything. Add Dawn Stadium and you've got the Flame Body effect.
The main reason MagLeaf was a lot better this year was because of Scramble/DRE. Without those, adding a max of 120-180 (Energy Forcing 2 DRE/Scramble and a DRE/Scramble for your turn) in one turn is no longer possible. It will max at 60 a turn now, which is still good. But in the next format, Leaf-growth-tile will be a lot better, especially with the addition of the new Sceptile, Tangrowth, and Shaymin.
Claydol is a target, hence the reason why people started playing GE Blaziken in their Magmortar decks. With Gengar coming out, people won't be able to resist putting 6 damage counters on it. Every time you use Cosmic Power, Tyranitar gets increasingly more powerful. There are ways in today's format to make Claydol a liability (PLOX/Cess) and in the next format there will be many more.
For Tangrowth to do good damage, fast, Sceptile has to be set up, fast. 4-2-4 with 3-3 Tang works. This isn't Torterrible. With the Omastar/Wager combo present, having a bunch of Sceptiles in your deck isn't a bad idea, not to mention the fact that with 100HP, it's easily sniped, and without it in play, the deck doesn't work. Claydol makes the deck run slower, and takes up bench space. I'd rather run more Supporters and risk getting Telepassed. They'll just Wager/Psychic Lock you anyway.
Be brave and try not running Claydol in a deck. It pays in this situation. Power Whipping your opponent's Claydol to death by T3 hurts them a lot, and it only gets worse from there. They won't be able to set up anything. Add Dawn Stadium and you've got the Flame Body effect.
The main reason MagLeaf was a lot better this year was because of Scramble/DRE. Without those, adding a max of 120-180 (Energy Forcing 2 DRE/Scramble and a DRE/Scramble for your turn) in one turn is no longer possible. It will max at 60 a turn now, which is still good. But in the next format, Leaf-growth-tile will be a lot better, especially with the addition of the new Sceptile, Tangrowth, and Shaymin.
Claydol is a target, hence the reason why people started playing GE Blaziken in their Magmortar decks. With Gengar coming out, people won't be able to resist putting 6 damage counters on it. Every time you use Cosmic Power, Tyranitar gets increasingly more powerful. There are ways in today's format to make Claydol a liability (PLOX/Cess) and in the next format there will be many more.
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DarthPika
New Member
If grass is big as I think it will be, then its safe to say that Mag will be the play.
ShinySwampert
New Member
Magmortar will be great, but I'd rather run it with Heatran Lv.X than Leafeon Lv. X. Tails for Torrid Wave every turn? You take 3 damage counters + an attack before you can even do anything about it. Any Active 130 HP Stage 2 is decimated by Flame Bluster. I know, Heat Wave doesn't activate Flame Body, and it doesn't let you use Flame Bluster again, but it prevents Flame Blast from losing power due to a Flame Bluster. And Heatran's a Basic Lv. X, which is great. Now that's a deck I'd like to play with Bubble Coat.
Stage 1 Lv. X's are slower than Stage 2's. Leafeon Lv. X ain't easy to get out, and I'd rather use a different non-Lv.X energy accelerator w/ Magmortar.
Edit: Didn't notice this at first.
Comboed with Felicity, (no more TVR) Blissey is a force to be reckoned with, and it's super-fast. doing 40 for one energy attachment, plus 20 per turn. Who cares how many energies it needs to do 100? It puts energies onto itself. If you played a Blissey deck that could barely KO anything, you played the wrong guy.
Blissey is a beast. It is only kept in check by Gallade's OHKOing power, and the fact that if it kills anything, it has to answer to Scramble Energy + Psychic Cut next turn. Next format, it will be great like it was when MT was released, before PLOX became the omni-deck. It loses Boost Energy, but Togekiss is still there, and with no more Scramble/DRE, it can out-speed everyone again, including Mag.
Look at it this way; barring external energy acceleration, Flame Blast does 20-40-60... ad infinitum with each passing turn, while removing 20 for Flame Body each turn..
In the same manner, Blissey does 40-60-80... and she has 20 more HP than Mag.
Edit: (forgot Flame Body.) After each has attacked twice, Blissey has 70 HP left while Mag has 50 HP left. Even if Mag attacked 3 times, and he attacked first, he can't KO Blissey without a PP. If Blissey attacked first. Mag is KO'd while Blissey has 70 remaining. Blissey is not weak by any means.
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Blaziken 1111
Active Member
But leafeon's a better attacker. Also what makes you so sure you need the lv.x. Heatran won't be out for a while. Magmortar doesn't need energy accel. It is useful but doesnt' need it. Magsol and T2 mag have all been succesful. Spread is more usesful and bench snipers like tangrowth becuase tangrowth can only hit one thing mag can hit multiple pokemon so when it dies you can bring up something else to kill the weak card. Togekiss is to luck reliant and typhlosion doesn't help that much anymore. Magmortar is still one of the best cards and leafeon is also very good and it goes with mag.
ShinySwampert
New Member
You think it's worth it to play Leafeon without the Lv. X? :/
Or do you mean Magmortar Lv. X? If you meant Magmortar Lv.X, I never meant to imply that Mag Lv. X was necessary for the MagLeaf Combo. Heatran Lv. X will be here in November. That's not so far away. Energy acceleration was not as important in this format because of DRE and Scramble. In the next format, it will be essential. Magmortar may not particularly need energy acceleration, but it certainly won't hurt him.
That statement you made about Bench Sniping vs. Spreading isn't really true. If you KO your opponent's active with a "Wild Growth'd" Tangrowth (say it has 5-6 energies, and it's doing 100-120 damage, and keep in mind that Scramble is gone, 'cause that's the only way my Tangrowth goes down), and they don't have a benched Pokemon capable of OHKOing Tangrowth on their next turn, it's GG. Tangrowth will KO every other Pokemon they have in play with ease, and they won't be able to build up anything, lest it be KO'd. Nothing is safe. The only way to stop it is to kill Sceptile, and if you have 2 benched Sceptile, there really isn't much they can do. Magmortar wishes it could say the same. Speaking of spreading, the new Tangrowth has a more powerful version of Fireball Bazooka (60 + 20 to two benched Poke's for just 2 Double Grass Energy), and a better Poke-Body than Flame Body. Tangrowth+Sceptile is better in every way. Let's face it. Grass rules.
Togekiss is random and luck reliant, but such is the game of Pokemon. Draw seven random cards. Put six random cards down as prizes. Randomly decide who goes first with a randomizer. However you can increase the chances of getting what you want by smart deckbuilding. If you play around 18-20 energy in your deck (which people will start doing in the next format, unless they're using Sceptile GE) Togekiss gives you a slightly more/less than 1/3 chance of each card revealed by Serene Grace being an energy, meaning you'll usually get 3; if unlucky you get 1-2, or if lucky, 4-5. Got no energy? SSU (more randomness) and try again. Even one extra energy per turn can help, and it is faster than Leafeon Lv. X's Energy Forcing.
Typhlosion will be more useful than ever. With Plox losing it's attack speed, powers are viable (though still vulnerable to the cards I mentioned earlier) and energy accelerators are invaluable with the loss of Scramble and DRE.
Magmortar still is one of the best cards, but Heatran Lv. X goes with Mag Lv. X better than with Leafy Lv. X goes with Mag. I'll take the 3 damage counters per turn plus the fire recharge from Flame Bluster with a benched Basic Lv. X (while healing 20 for my R attachment) over adding 40 to my attack (if I have 2 R Energy) while healing 40 with a benched Stage 1 Lv. X.
Leafeon Lv. X doesn't even like being benched. It wants to be active and attack for tons of damage. :wink:
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Banette EX
New Member
If their playing Kingdra and Im playing MagLutions Im have bubble coat and snipe all your claydols and place some damage on your bench kingdras to setup Kos. Leafeon Lv.X basically just stops anything Kingdra couldve done,Im either Leaf Guard until I have another Leafy setup or Im OHKO you everytime you bring up a Kingdra.
Considering we are getting TM1 EvoT2-T3 Leafy X wont be hard to accomplish. Kingdra cant do anything without Claydols. If FF was still in then Mag would def have the advantage.Also Leafy X can heal itself with Dawn and with a Leafy from the starter. Kingdra is gonna be good,but people can play LeafGreen now and Leafy Variants to counter the Kingdra. Simple metagaming.
PS>Just be glad Meganuim d isnt gonna be around,cuz if it was,then Kingdra wouldnt even be played.
Considering we are getting TM1 EvoT2-T3 Leafy X wont be hard to accomplish. Kingdra cant do anything without Claydols. If FF was still in then Mag would def have the advantage.Also Leafy X can heal itself with Dawn and with a Leafy from the starter. Kingdra is gonna be good,but people can play LeafGreen now and Leafy Variants to counter the Kingdra. Simple metagaming.
PS>Just be glad Meganuim d isnt gonna be around,cuz if it was,then Kingdra wouldnt even be played.
Kabutops141
New Member
Even if Kingdra's HUGE, Magleaf can still win. Just send up Leafy X and KO left and Right. So, in this case, Mag>>Blissey. Bench dmg and burn is just too good to pass up.