Are donks good for the game?

[Chairman Kaga]

I believe the reason we run finals as best 2 out of 3 matches is to compensate for the variance of luck and T1 donks.

In an optimal world, Swiss would be match play as well. As I understand it, a lot of Europe plays it that way right now. Swiss is already up to 40-minute rounds, why not make it 45-minute best-of-3?

 

[Varna]

I believe the reason we run finals as best 2 out of 3 matches is to compensate for the variance of luck and T1 donks.

In an optimal world, Swiss would be match play as well. As I understand it, a lot of Europe plays it that way right now. Swiss is already up to 40-minute rounds, why not make it 45-minute best-of-3?

I couldn't agree more with that sentiment.

 

[renfield89]

If you guys all hate donk decks so much, why not play Shellos East Sea SW? For [C], you can search your deck for any combination of 2 Shellos, which obviously prevents you from being T1 benched, and it has 60 HP, so Sableye can't donk it either!
Problem solved =]

-Renfield

 

[Ignatious]

Let's not exagerate. Did 9 of the 10 opponents start with a singleton pokemon? Mine didn't. It was more like 6 of 10.

Ok let's say all 10 did...

Did you start with horsea 90% of the time because I didn't espepcially with 2 unown G (T1 2nd of T2 1st - I can't seem to get the Horsea, Candy, Kingdra and Warp/Switch more 50% of the time)

I wasn't playing best list but I can't imagine better than 25-30 donk % for Kindra and more like 15-20 once people saw it coming and adjusted their lists accordingly. If it donked 90% of the time it would have won 90% of the cities.

I'm not saying that it is not possible to get 9 out of 10 Kindra donks. But it is also possible to flip 25 heads in a row.

Ah, but my statement is not an exaggeration. When I refer to donk, I guess I identify it by a simple KO on the first turn, not necessarily winning the game on the first turn. It isn't too complicated to build a Kingdra list that effectively Dragon Pumps 90% of the times it goes second, and even more often times when it goes first (getting it out on the following turn, of course).

Why didn't Kingdra win 90% of cities? I would assume the sheer power of a turn one Kingdra is greatly under-estimated, along with the fact of not knowing a valid deck list to pull it off, and taking the correct risks on the first turn to have effective draw. These facts lead many to play other deck choices, letting other decks win. Besides, some decks can fight off a turn one Kingdra, the most effective of which would be Regigigas.

 

[NoPoke]

For those that argue that donks are a good feature of the game. I agree with you. The whole character of the game would change and become much more serious without donks. However there is a dark side to donks: tournaments with big prizes need to reduce the impact of the donk on selecting the winner, same for ratings derived invites.

The dark side of the donk can be reduced in many ways without changing the starting procedure. For example match play in the swiss, modification to the rating system to account for donk wins (I've posted about this before including the changes necessary to how the stake is calculated), change to how a winner is determined at the tables.

match play is well understood.
the bayesian modification to Elo has been covered elsewhere.
So what alternative ways of determining a winner might we use other than match play? Players could play continuously for the whole round setting up as many games as time allows. Accumulating one point for each prize they take and two points for a game win, at the end of the round (or three games whichever comes first???) count points to determine a winner.


Donks aren't bad, even the FTKO isn't bad, but there is a dark side to the donk. It is the latter aspect that needs to be addressed rather than removing donks wholesale. I believe that the game would suffer without donks. Suffer in its appeal to the majority of players, suffer by being less fun. There is a balance to be struck between the appeal and character of the game versus the quite reasonable request from the highly skilled that the best players should win.

 

[Rainbowgym]

I believe the reason we run finals as best 2 out of 3 matches is to compensate for the variance of luck and T1 donks.

In an optimal world, Swiss would be match play as well. As I understand it, a lot of Europe plays it that way right now. Swiss is already up to 40-minute rounds, why not make it 45-minute best-of-3?

And I think that's the reason Kingdra was not doing to well overhere, because of the best of 3 in swiss.

 

[Ardoptres]

Best of 3 made Kingdra being wiped away overhere already during BR, and Machamp is used but not much.
Players using those decks simply gamble on having over 50% a donk, but in extended games those decks mostly loose.

Yeah, that's why Kingdra never won anything; it doesn't stand a chance when not donking.

.....

 

[ShadowGuard]

In an optimal world, Swiss would be match play as well. As I understand it, a lot of Europe plays it that way right now. Swiss is already up to 40-minute rounds, why not make it 45-minute best-of-3?

Unfortunally, our judges in Germany don't want to play b-o-3 here. Even our best judge who complained about having no real game in a CC he played because of donking on both sides wants to keep b-o-1 since it's the format the Nationals and Worlds will be run. But Nationals and Worlds have more rounds so the tournament isn't over after a 1st-round-donk (like at most CCs or States thanks to the new top cuts).

At my last tournament, I had an Unown G / 2 Night / 2 Moonlight / you know what else start two times, another game I also had a bad start (T8 Claydol ftw) but my opponent wasn't that good so I could win anyway, and the last game I started normally (like I started in most of the test matches) and won without problems against T1 Machamp.

After this tournament, I'm considering to play some of the States in Netherlands instead of Germany, and even if I have to pay more for the trip in addition so small entry fees, it's much better than going to a tournament and losing all chances of trophies after one minute (and there also would be better competition).


Optional mulligans would stop such terrible starts I mentioned above, but they wouldn't reduce donks. Keep in mind that players with donk-decks also can Mulligan, and that you don't neccessarily have two basics if you draw a new starting hand. Reducing the number of cards as penalitiy for taking a mulligan is also pointless with Uxie in the format. So the best option would be to allow only on mulligan.

That "Quick Ball"-recovery suggestion was exactly what I thought when I read the topic, and I don't know anything that speaks against it. You don't even need to give the donking player two prizes, it's still and adventage to have the first prize card before the opponent did anything (he starts with a completely new and random playfield).

 

[NoPoke]

A loss after 5 minutes leaves players kicking their heals for 40+ minutes before the next round begins. I never did understand how sitting out for 40+ minutes was playing pokemon. I know that even with best of three you can be sitting out after 10 minutes but it is much less likely.

There has been no announcement of the Worlds format. Though I do expect it to be 40 minute single game swiss rounds, POP could go for 45 minute matchplay in the swiss. Worlds is a different event to Nationals.

 

[Tagrineth]

For match play in Pokemon I wouldn't be happy with anything less than an hour.

 

[Lawman]

Let's not exagerate. Did 9 of the 10 opponents start with a singleton pokemon? Mine didn't. It was more like 6 of 10.

Ok let's say all 10 did...

Did you start with horsea 90% of the time because I didn't espepcially with 2 unown G (T1 2nd of T2 1st - I can't seem to get the Horsea, Candy, Kingdra and Warp/Switch more 50% of the time)

I wasn't playing best list but I can't imagine better than 25-30 donk % for Kindra and more like 15-20 once people saw it coming and adjusted their lists accordingly. If it donked 90% of the time it would have won 90% of the cities.

I'm not saying that it is not possible to get 9 out of 10 Kindra donks. But it is also possible to flip 25 heads in a row.

He didnt say he donked 90% of the time t1. He said, with the list he ran, he would get Kingdra t1 about 90% of the time. (Go look at Chris' decklist....4 candies, 3 lux ball, great balls, roseannes, switch/warp, SSU, etc.) Even if he didnt get the horsea start, he had lots of outs on getting the active poke moved and the horsea/candy/kingdra pretty consistently.

Keith

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

If you guys all hate donk decks so much, why not play Shellos East Sea SW? For [C], you can search your deck for any combination of 2 Shellos, which obviously prevents you from being T1 benched, and it has 60 HP, so Sableye can't donk it either!
Problem solved =]

-Renfield

A better starter than this is still the old reliable pachi from GE. 70 HP (no donk unless Kingdra drops a bucks or PP and none from sableye). Call for family for 3 pokes for 1 colorless. People seem to have forgotten about this golden nugget in today's meta. Of course, it turns into a wasted bench slot for decks facing dusknoir, but with the lost zone coming....get your basics out, then use the "Zone" to lose the pachi!

Keith

 

[Austino]

There's a LOT of hating on donk decks in here.

What's wrong with mixing up the game? Most donk decks rely on a lot of luck, but that doesn't mean that the player isn't skilled. I run a Machamp deck that is quite solid because I don't have to pray for the cards I need. There's a difference between luck and speed. A good deck builder can put together a T1/T2 donk deck that's actually consistent with things like Pokedex, Unown R, Prof. Rowan, Luxury Ball (playing 4 if necessary...but DON'T), max BeBe's, Uxie, Azelf, and even 4 pokeball.

I run:
4-3-4 Machamp
2-2 Claydol
1 Azelf
1 Uxie

3 pokedex
4 Bebe's
1 Luxury Ball
4 Poke Ball
4 Rare Candy
4 PokeDrawer+
3 Roseanne's

etc.

Just because people like to outspeed/donk their opponent doesn't reflect them as having low self esteem either (saw that in an earlier post).

Edit: However, I also agree with the opposing argument as well. My other main deck is Dusknoir/Bronzong/Cresselia, which is a meticulous deck that requires quite a bit of skill and timing.

 

[lolganium]

Why do I dislike donks:

1. Donk games do not give me chance to exert my hand at deckbuilding or playing to beat my opponent. A t1 or t2 loss allows no demonstration of my skills. It feels horrible to drive hours to a tournament, and in a close CC or states competition with lots of players, and going 4-2 with a donk loss and missing the cut. Or missing the T4 of a cities for the same reason, going 3-2 with a donk loss.
2. Donk games don't help the ratings much. I know right now they don't hurt, but they impact. Even donk wins in swiss hurt other players from participating in later rounds to reclaim points vs people with more points (who made it to top cut). They actually allow no skill to be involved. If Player A is contributing 20 points to a 32k match and his opponent only 10 because their ratings and "measures skills" are different, with A needing to contribute more- this entire process is just made unfair and arbitrary once a t1 or t2 donk is introduced. Why should I commit more points for winning more if my skill is not even made a factor lol. Getting T1d before you EVEN have a chance to draw a card is just DISGUSTING. Sableye donking, machamp donking, I personally like Kingdra lol, and stuff like that doesn't help what we're trying to do as competitive players- find the best through ratings.
3. It disrupts theory and testing. Getting donked doesn't help me playtest or play against a deck. It's great to know the numbers of donks, but besides your own odds- you'll never figure out your opponents. You can only hope to build the most consistent and fast list considered. If I get donked by Kingdra t1 in playtesting, I just wasted two minutes. If it happens that I just draw/pass vs it for 3 turns and lose, still wasted time. Donks greatly influence statistics, and can really hurt and make people mismanage, especially when they don't apply pure math and go on "gut instincts" about what they luckily draw into or set up. Donking doesn't help people get better.
4. I think donk decks change HOW the deck is played more than what is played. Anyone SHOULD try to make a list that sets up as early as possible, regardless of threats from a T1 kingdra- you need to set up to win, period. It's when playing against a donk deck that your strategy must change. The only thing to hinder getting donked are playing more basics (sacrificing consistency for slightly boosted odds of starting with multiple pokemon), but the trainers should already be consistent enough to get pokemon out asap. The only changes people make are where they attach energy early, who and when they lay, etc. People don't really alter their decks that much to counter donk decks or the donk factor. I think consistency has always been a fundamental, regardless of T1 factor.
5. Donks are fast and exciting? I haven't played Kingdra or Machamp at a tournament this season, so I never got that rush of donking someone. I got donked, not the other way around. I never felt anticipation and excitement. Just dread at another lesser skilled opponent beating me before I got any chance whatsoever of outplaying or outlisting them. When I T1 or T2 someone, it feels good to get it out of the way, but I feel bad because I beat someone on dumb luck and not any sort of skill.
6. I don't consider Rampardos or Kingdra to be that donkey of decks. They are just stage 2s with 1 energy attacks- OH GOD! This is nothing different than Queendom (4/3/4 stage 2 with DRE) or Speedrill or other quick decks that use 1-2 energy on a stage 2 that's easy to set up. 80 for 1, it'll likely do -40 too, and it evolves from a fossil, and has damage cap written all over it- problematic late game when Rampardos can never give OHKOs.

1. someone who can build a deck to hit turn 1 every game is a good deck builder are they not? there skill as a deckbuilder comes out in turn 1 (hopefully). just because they get a chance to show their skills as a deckbuilder before you doesnt make them a n00b donker, it just makes them a better builder builder than you for thinking about making their deck as quick as possible early game.

2. POKEMON IS NOT, AND NEVER WILL BE ABOUT GETTING GOOD RATINGS. ANYONE WHO GOES AND PLAYS IN CERTAIN PLACES AT CERTAIN TIMES FOR K-VALUE SHOULD BE HUNG, ITS COMPLETELY ANTI-SOTG AND IN MY EYES UNETHICAL TO A DEGREE. a complete breach of player morality to state this as a reason for not likeing a good turn 1 deck.

3. i would have thought this was quite simple; apply turn 1 donks to your theory. if you sit their and think of a deck and overlook a turn 1 donk then you arent a very good builder. besides... theory and percentages are in pokemon to be broken,thats what makes the game interesting imo.

4. consistancy is important in a setup deck (like dusknoir, i would say that requires some setup and time to get into full swing). you say no one alters their deck for the chance of running into a donk deck, why not you? surely if yu didnt complain and just sat down and worked out how to possibly get around it that would make you a respectible player

5. as ive said, if someone has built a kingdra designed so that it nearly never wiffs turn 2, then they are a good player. if they hope for the donk then ye i agree they are idiots.

6. who plays rampardos?

imo: i think if you wanna make a decent turn 1 or 2 deck, go stage one ... or basics. going turn 2 is very luck sack to a degree.

i hope i have thrown a decend argument and some food for thought for you turn 1 haters out there. remember: theres a difference between a donk deck and a turn 1 deck ... ill leave you to work out what.

 

[Austino]

1. someone who can build a deck to hit turn 1 every game is a good deck builder are they not?

2. POKEMON IS NOT, AND NEVER WILL BE ABOUT GETTING GOOD RATINGS. ANYONE WHO GOES AND PLAYS IN CERTAIN PLACES AT CERTAIN TIMES FOR K-VALUE SHOULD BE HUNG, ITS COMPLETELY ANTI-SOTG AND IN MY EYES UNETHICAL TO A DEGREE.

3. i would have thought this was quite simple; apply turn 1 donks to your theory. if you sit their and think of a deck and overlook a turn 1 donk then you arent a very good builder. besides... theory and percentages are in pokemon to be broken,thats what makes the game interesting imo.

4. consistancy is important in a setup deck

+1 Ditto :thumb:

If you don't want your basics being donked, then run cards that prevent it! Unown G is perfect for countering Machamp. "Skilled" players who hate donk decks can't complain about not getting to show their deck building and hard work when they overlook aspects of the game. At 2009 worlds, I guarantee that the winners will have a deck that covers T1 donks to the best of it's ability while still being able to run the drawn out game. When I run my Dusk/Zong/Cressy deck, I run 4 call energies and 2 Unown G....it hasn't been donked yet.

 

[Ignatious]

Yeah, that's why Kingdra never won anything; it doesn't stand a chance when not donking.

.....

Woah! I would have never expected this statement to come from you. Come on, now, every time a Dusknoir is KOed it takes three turns of energy to replace it, while it only takes one turn to replace a kingdra. Even late game, that factor is huge, and I would even go as far as saying Kingdra's damage output is definitely on par with Dusknoir's. I won't go as far as to say that Kingdra can win every match up without T1/T2 Kingdra, but for most of the competitive decks in the environment, Kingdra easily goes 50-50 against them, excluding Regigigas and Leafeon.

 

[Glumanda]

Unfortunally, our judges in Germany don't want to play b-o-3 here. Even our best judge who complained about having no real game in a CC he played because of donking on both sides wants to keep b-o-1 since it's the format the Nationals and Worlds will be run. But Nationals and Worlds have more rounds so the tournament isn't over after a 1st-round-donk (like at most CCs or States thanks to the new top cuts).

If you quote me, please quote me correctly.
Yes, I said that I had no real game in this CC but not because on donking. Actually, only one game has been won by the infamous T1 donk. In all the other games the game was more or less decided by the draw which can also easily happen if you are not playing a donk deck. E.g. in the first game I had to draw all my prizes, but my opponent had a so crappy start in contrast to mine that all I had to do was to preserve the early lead I had (which still is a skill. A player who plays worse than me, may have given my opponent the chance to come back).

And on the next point, I have more than one reason for not switching to b-o-3. One, is indeed, that I do not think that you should give a tournament which is lower in the hierarchy then Nationals and Worlds a structure which is perceived as higher in the skill hierarchy. The other has something to do with that players in Germany generally play very slowly. If I have a CC where in every round a Masters Game end 2-2 in remaining prizes after 40 minutes, I do not think that 3 games will be played in 45 minutes.

You might argue that this is not necessary because this should only prevent the donks. But: The strategy in b-o-3 45 minutes requires (if there has not been an early donk) that players are not too slow because of the breaking point you have after ca. 15 minutes. At this breaking point, you must decide if you want to throw this game away to have enough time for the second game or you think you have a shot at winning this game. Making the correct decision is definitely a skill, but a skill you will not need at Nationals or Worlds if the structure stays the same. So after 15 minutes the game has to have developed enough to correctly make this decision. Not possible if players are not able to finish one game in 40 minutes. And if you choose to scrap the first game, you still have to draw at least 4 prizes in the remaining 30 minutes. I do not see that both of these things are easily achievable with German players at the moment.

Another reason is a logistical one. Take a CC with 40-50 players. If I play b-o-1 40 minutes I have nearly no problems with stalling/slow play issues because after 30 minutes maybe four to five tables will be running and you can easily see in which games this could be an issue. Juniors and Seniors are often completely finished at this time, so you do not have to concentrate on those age groups playing after the rules.
Now we are playing b-o-3 45 minutes. You can expect that a lot more tables are still not finished and there will be more issues with stalling/slow play and there will be tables with inexperienced Juniors/Seniors still not finished you must have an eye on. There will more critical issues in such a setting and I am not positive that some players in Germany actually grasp the concept that if their first game lasts 38 minutes that it is fine if they do not finish the second one (because I think it is the main coneept behind that b-o-3 45 minutes thing that you have at least one "real" game). And as players in Germany are very outspoken when it comes to being "cheated"/"Slow played" etc. pp. I see the danger that there will rants about issues like that in the German message boards which could shed a negative light on the tournaments. I do not see at the moment that the positive effects of b-o-3 outweight the dangers and negative effects.

And we are not definitely talking about just five minutes more. In b-o-1, a sudden death game will be rather quick because the playing field is evolved. In b-o-3, however, if you end with 1-1 you start with a sudden death game where you have to build up the playing field from scratch. This can be fast, but it many cases it will not be.

That was very long, but I think about this issue in many more facets than the post above says (which actually more sounds like I´m a tyrant who always wants to push his own opinion no matter what). It is definitely nice that it works out so well in the Netherlands but what is good for someone is not necessarily good for another one.

 

[afstandopleren]

People started playing Leafeon during the so called 'reign' of Kingdra.
That is why Kingdra failed during BRs.

 

[the_sniper]

Yeah, that's why Kingdra never won anything; it doesn't stand a chance when not donking.

.....

Tell that to Fulop. Knowing his skill level( one of the best!! ) and what goes into his builds
( not to mention his current ranking) I bet he doesn't agree with your post.

I know I don't.


Even though Mr. Roll has 5 - that's right- FIVE t-1 wins against
me this year playing kingdra, I don't feel this deck is as donkey as champ, sableye or
gengar. It is a fast stage 2 that can swarm your opponent and can also have key
"tech" cards added to it for drawn out battles or bad match-ups. It's a t-1 deck more than
a donk deck, at least that is how I see it.



Even though I created "THE" donk deck ( but I never looked at that deck that
way, unlike most of you ), I don't like them at all in this format. At least my
bug deck gave you a turn or 2.

The biggest donk cards right now are champ, sableye and gengar imho.

Yeah, i played champ in Ga.
( as Keith said). But Ryan also stated why- meta-game. I didn't enjoy playing it and don't see
myself playing it again anytime soon.120 to the lv x from uxie for ONE colorless makes it
unplayable in my opinion.

Sableye is just stupid. Reminds me of those wins mario would pop off with your opponent
not even getting a turn. This is good for op?? I don't think it is, and my builds have more basics just
because of this card.I saw a guy win the last 2 rounds at the Sci-Fi City in Orlando by going
1st and his opponents not getting a turn because of sableye and a real dark. Both his opponents
had better decks and more skill, yet they never even got a turn to show it. I played the guy
in top 8 and Rick Rolled his t-tar deck. I also was running gigas and 70 hp pokes and because
he couldn't t-1 me, the flaws in his deck started to appear as the battle went on turn by turn.

Gengar is the clear winner here though imho. A g'ed gengar just sucks. Obv. uxie is the best option
to k.o. it, but that isn't always possible. Spiritomb helps some decks ( torterrible for sure) in dealing with this card, but sometimes you must k.o. it and hope for the best.
This card has cost me 3 games this year and every time I CLEARLY win were it not for his 2 heads
on death sentence( each game they hit at least 1). One cost me a t-tar , clean w/ a rooster tail.
Just stupid!

I'm 44-15 this year and over half of my losses were to some form of being donked. Take that
for what it is worth.

And to lolganium , you posted this:

2. POKEMON IS NOT, AND NEVER WILL BE ABOUT GETTING GOOD RATINGS. ANYONE WHO GOES AND PLAYS IN CERTAIN PLACES AT CERTAIN TIMES FOR K-VALUE SHOULD BE HUNG, ITS COMPLETELY ANTI-SOTG AND IN MY EYES UNETHICAL TO A DEGREE. a complete breach of player morality to state this as a reason for not likeing a good turn 1 deck.


So hang me then.

I bet you haven't played in many worlds have you? I didn't set up the invite system . But if you
hope to go to the dance this year you MUST play for the points wherever and whenever you
tee it up.And sorry, but losing several games without getting a turn IS a good reason for not liking
certain decks or certain cards if an invite to worlds is your goal.

I'd sure like to have the points back from the several loses I have this year SOLELY because i was
donked by the coin or sableye. And I don't see myself as anti- sotg or a player lacking morals for
feeling this way.

Besides, the main reason I dislike these decks is it takes skill out of the format and adds more
luck to a game that already requires a certain degree of luck to succeed and win games and win
events. Any good player will tell you this.

 

[HurricaneWarty]

2. POKEMON IS NOT, AND NEVER WILL BE ABOUT GETTING GOOD RATINGS. ANYONE WHO GOES AND PLAYS IN CERTAIN PLACES AT CERTAIN TIMES FOR K-VALUE SHOULD BE HUNG, ITS COMPLETELY ANTI-SOTG AND IN MY EYES UNETHICAL TO A DEGREE. a complete breach of player morality to state this as a reason for not likeing a good turn 1 deck.

You're right, it is crazy and unethical to want to compete in Worlds, where a majority of invites are given out through ranking. It's just as crazy for me to want to win a game. Hey, you know what, I think it is JUST as crazy to even have tournaments! After all, the goal there is to win as many games and take 1st as well. In fact, why keep track of who wins or loses a match at all? As long as we all had fun, who cares what the outcomes were, despite the fact we all have to find time to devote to this game outside of the important things (school, work, family, etc).

I'll make you a deal, I won't worry about giving myself the best opportunity to increase my ranking when A) We don't keep track of winners and losers in this game and B) 75% or so of the invites to Worlds aren't awarded through my ranking.

I also thought rankings and competing were one of the great things about Pokemon. It provides a fun, simple environment to teach kids a ton of things about the real world. It teaches them how to have passion for something and enjoy it. How putting hard work and effort into something allows you to increase your chance for success. It teaches them to have goals, and sub-goals which allow themselves something to measure their growth against. The best part is, it does this while also stressing getting along with fellow players, and having just as much class, dignity and integrity when you lose a close match and recognize your opponent's achievement in winning. It teaches them how to self-evaluate after a close loss or results you don't appreciate and make weaknesses your strengths.

 

[Rainbowgym]

States in the Netherlands will be game play (best of 1).
I don't like game play (never did) and I am sure a lot of players will complain about game play.
However the rule is game play for SPT's so no options. (as far as I understood)
And seeing that new Stadium card (Time Space Tear) I already know we are not going to have as much fun as we did during BR/CC's.