Tricky vs. Deceptive Behavior (updated 2/12)

[Scipio]

I would suggest that there are three categories, explicit cheating (breaking the rules, obv), deception (an aggressive effort to manipulate an opponent's actions through untrue facts or blatant gestures) and bluffing (opening your opponent's imagination to possibilities that might or might not be true).

Cheating is never acceptable, we as a community agree on that ethic (I really hope).

Deception is not acceptable either, but I will be annoyed by it and remember it, harboring no grudge, mostly just keeping track to know what to expect from certain people.




PS Bluffing seems to be achievable through entirely legal game actions, and I'm curious how judges are expected to draw lines on this matter.

This post to me sums up what we're looking for. The line between Deception and Bluffing can be a fine one (See Power Spray), but can we really call out people on teching a single Duskull?

 

[Sunscorch]

This post to me sums up what we're looking for. The line between Deception and Bluffing can be a fine one (See Power Spray), but can we really call out people on teching a single Duskull?

My understanding is no, simply because it consists entirely of legal game actions. There's no "nudgenudge" body language going on, there's no verbal indications of intent, and there's no illegal gameplay.

 

[Rogue Archetype]

I appreciate everyone who has contributed to this discussion.

I truly believe it helped set the tone for States.

I didn't see much (if not any) suspiciousness throughout the entire day in VA states.

Anybody have an interesting story to tell about Satuday?

 

[ninetales1234]

Wow, I wish I had posted in here earlier. It feels bad to see DarthPika take a beating here without me. I agree with everything he's said so far.

I will say that lying about private information (like the contents of your hand) and making the opponent think things about your hand that arent' true (without lying) are two different things. The lying thing, I'm not so concerned about- if people want to retaliate against those people with penalties, I'm not gonna fight to the death over it. However, tricking the opponent about private information without lying- I'm going to have to defend that. Psychology is part of playing a game.

If DarthPika's example of holding a card higher than another to lead the opponent into thinking he has Power Spray is wrong and merits a penalty, then so should lots of things. If I had a nickel for every time a player said "thank you!" every time I played Team Galatic's Wager, I'd have a lot of nickels. Should we judges go after everyone who says "oh yeah" or "goshdarnit!" every time their opponent plays TGW? Just as with the Power Spray example, it is a player trying to lull the opponent into thinking something that may not be true. How far does the anti-bluffing mentality go? Are players to simply draw cards, and place them on the table and not talk at all? Should they be like computers? Should every player be a Pokemon-playing automaton? I do not come to tournaments to play against a computer.

What about players who say "oh crap!" or "dang, I needed that!" when the opponent plays TGW, not as part of strategy, but just as a natural reaction to the situation (I do this all the time)? What about players who simply have one card in their hand raised higher than another as a habit? Should we go after these guys? I'm not going after these bluffing people because I can't. It would be so hard to identify. Where do I draw the line? How do I know there's bluffing instead of just habit/natural reaction to the situation?
--------------

Sometimes, people playing against me will say "should I concede?". It is usually an attempt to measure my perception of my chances of winning, so we can just end the game and move on. But asking that question could also be used strategically. It could be used to lull the opponent into a false sense of security. If I allow my opponents to influence me with this tactic, I should learn from it. I should know better next time.

Evolve. Adapt. Advance. Become a better player. If your opponent misleads you or lulls you into a false sense of security, learn from it. Evolve. Counter it. Figure out a way to become resistant to it. Virtually every action can be countered or responded to somehow.

I think that bluffing should be in game, it's an card game. The reason why bluffing shouldn't be banned is that it's so hard to catch bluffers.

I, as a judge, have more important things to use my time and energy on, like looking for players stacking their decks, stalling, doing attacks they don't have enough energy to do, forgetting to lay out prizes... there's lots of stuff to look out for.

Trying to "psyche" your opponent out with the perceived threat of a power spray is just silly mind games. I don't see any harm in it. I've always found that it's easier to get a read on someone when they're actually doing or saying something, than when they're maintaining a calm expression and posture and keeping their hand to themselves.

Pay close attention to your opponent's turns. Keep a mental note of the cards that go into his hand (like the things he searches for with a search supporter or power), the things that leave his hand (stuff coming into play or going to the discard), and whatever is left remaining are your "unknown" cards. Probability and the plays your opponent makes will help you decide whether your opponent has the power spray, or the pluspower, or the warp point, or whatever card it is they need to beat your next play.

I love the concept of SOTG but I don't understand how the "bluffing" (actually really poor bluffing) that has been described in this thread detracts from the fun and sportsmanship of the game. I think bluffing is a fun and exciting dimension to any game where there are "unknowns" like face down cards or cards in hand. I always thought the "honesty" aspect of SOTG just meant not cheating. If someone wants to be "dishonest" about what's in their hand, I don't see how that's causing anyone harm. You don't have to believe them. You don't have to disbelieve them. You haven't actually -seen- their hand so to a decent player it doesn't matter what your opponent says. You're going to try and make the best possible play either way.

I'd much rather have my opponents try and tell me what they have (or don't really have) in their hand. It's so much easier to figure someone out that way. ;]

I agree. If you ask your opponent "do you have card X in your hand" and you don't like his answer, well you shouldn't have asked. I'm not gonna be dumb enough to ask my opponent if he has a certain card in his hand. I'm not gonna be dumb enough to think my opponent won't try to lead me into thinking something that isn't true.

Public knowledge is public knowledge is public knowledge. Private knowledge (like a player’s hand) is private knowledge. If you try to guess what’s in the opponent’s hand and you guess wrong, that’s your fault for trying to find out. That’s a risk you chose to take. If you mislead your opponent (or lie) about the contents of your hand, and it backfires, that’s your fault for thinking it would work. That’s a risk you chose to take.

In my experience playing this game, most of the times my opponents comment on their hand, they are telling the truth (usually in an attempt to make me think that the opposite is true). Whether he lies or tells the truth, the desired effect is the same: to get me to think the opposite of what he said. Therefore, if making an untrue statement about the contents of one's hand merits a penalty, shouldn't making a true statment about the content's of one's hand merit a penalty as well? In both instances they are trying to influence my actions.

question can i play duskul in my deck with no dusknoir, or is that illeagal now. If my noir is prized can i put duskul on my bench to bluf that i can
get a dusknoir

It's always nice to post examples like this to show the extremes. What will going after players who mislead their opponents lead to? ^I certainly hope this is not where it will go.

UNDERSTAND THIS PEOPLE:
POKEMON CANNOT BE COMPARED TO ANY OTHER GAME BECAUSE IT'S NOT INTENDED TO BE LIKE ANY OTHER GAME !!!

That's a bad attempt to invalidate other people's statements that involve comparing Pokemon to other games.

Pokemon Energy Cards ≈ Magic: the Gathering Land Cards
Pokemon Tool Cards ≈ Yu Gi Oh Equip Magic Cards
Pokemon Stadium Cards ≈ Yu Gi Oh Field Magic Cards
Tabletop games with private information (like your hand in Pokemon)- there are plenty of those!
Trading card games with shuffled decks (like Pokemon)- plenty of those as well!
I could go on, but I think that's enough examples- Pokemon is not a unique game.

Do something like this where I am judging and see how fast the penalty will fly. That is an action INTENDED to influence your oppo's move. There are multiple penalties I could consider. This is improper and should not continue. IF you have the powerspray and enough G pokes in play, simply sit there and be ready to play it to cancel a power. You dont NEED to rub a card in the oppo's face. IMO, this is no different than the player setting out a copy of Dusknoir Darkpalm power as an outside ref and they dont even have the card in their deck. You are influencing the way your oppo may play by the actions you are taking.

Simply play the game the proper way! There is no need for shenanigans in this game.

Unless I am misinterpreting this, DarthPika's talking about using his hands to make a card physically higher than another. It's not his fault if the opponent thinks there's a Power Spray in his hand, that's all in the opponent's head.

Did you get into this game for fun? Is this really how far you're gonna take things? You're going to regulate the motion of a player's body? You're going to walk down the tables of your tournament and stop people's hands from being in a position that you don't like?
I came into this game for fun, and I'd rather not see it be populated by a bunch of killjoys.

Meta-gaming. Strategy. The game outside the game. Wondering your opponent's next move. Preventing your opponent from predicting your next move. Making the best choice based on your opponent's previous choices. These things are part of what makes Pokemon (and plenty of other games) fun.

I think instead of arguing whether or not bluffing is cheating, I will instead argue about what sort of sad, pathetic player has to resort to bluffing in order to win games.

Do some research about strategy in other games. This is how almost every game works; in other games, you can lull your opponent into making decisions he wouldn't otherwise make (go play chess long enough and you'll see what I mean).

It´s allowed to show my oppenet my hand (for exampel i have a power spray on my hand)

this action can bring my oppenet in a situation where he made a mistake, or does it not?

hold a card in a special way that my oppenet think is a power spray ( for example i have no power spray in my hand) is bluffing and against the rules..


somthing is wrong about this.... thats a paradox oO

Yeah, really, what's the difference?

I think 'Pop answered your Q a few posts above. It is wrong. It doesn't matter if the card IS Spray or not. You are TRYING to INFLUENCE the play of your oppo. IF you have the spray,

Do you know what the Law of Sensitive Dependence On Initial Conditions is? Anything can influence anything. I don't think it's fair to just pick out that one thing that can influence a player's actions and say that it's wrong.

actions like intentinally hiding cards like Unown G under your Pokémon,

I always make sure that players at my events are laying out their energy and Pokemon tools in a way that the opponent can see. Your opponent is entitled to know the game state. That Unown G is public knowledge no one should prevent him from knowing it's there.

 

[selerky]

^ In your TGW example, the player does something after TGW has been played. There's nothing they can do about it now. If they offered to "let" the other person take the Wager back, that would be trying to change the game.

But leaning forward or raising a card -- In concept, it is perfectly fine. But if you're doing that in a way that implies that you have Power Spray, you're trying to change their mind.

Do you know what the Law of Sensitive Dependence On Initial Conditions is? Anything can influence anything. I don't think it's fair to just pick out that one thing that can influence a player's actions and say that it's wrong.

We're talking about a deliberate attempt to influence the other player -- whether or not the other player is influenced doesn't matter. It's the intent that counts.
Say I decide to hide 4 extra PlusPower up my sleeve. It's cheating even if I don't get a chance to use them -- because they fall out in front of the Head Judge, for example. I'll still be penalized, because my intent was to cheat.

 

[Lawman]

One of my personal favorite ways to trick opponents is playing little mind games during the battle. Nothing that's cheating, but stuff that will make them think twice before doing a move.

For example, lets say I'm using a G deck, and my opponent is using kingdra.

I have 3 G pokemon in play and its my opponents 2nd turn. They have no claydol in play and are still setting up. My opponent playes a roseanne, and searches the deck. While they do this I hold up a card (so they can't see what it is) as if I'm getting ready to power spray the Uxie that they want to take. Seeing this, they take a Baltoy instead, buying me extra time. I don't even NEED a power spray in my hand to hold of Uxie drops. Just reminding your opponent that you MIGHT have one can be very powerfull, and quite tricky.

After the game you can tell them, "ya, remember that power spray I was holding up in the beginning of the game? Well, it really was just a water energy." lol

@Ninetales/Nick: ^THIS is what DP said. He would hold a SINGLE CARD UP in front of the oppo as they are searching their deck. Sorry, but THAT tactic is WRONG on so many levels. IF you cannot see the logic to this, there is no reason to discuss this any further with you.

Yes, I joined and still play this game bc it is FUN. I run events bc they are FUN. I judge events bc they are FUN!!! What I WILL enforce is that everyone else in the room will not be subjected to the actions of a perceived jerk (if that is the tactic/mind games they try in my area!) So, be forewarned....I will be your HJ in VA for Regionals :biggrin:

Keith

 

[ninetales1234]

He would hold a SINGLE CARD UP in front of the oppo as they are searching their deck. Sorry, but THAT tactic is WRONG on so many levels. IF you cannot see the logic to this, there is no reason to discuss this any further with you.

You really come off as condescending. "Oh, well it's just something that's beyond your comprehension, so I think I won't continue talking to you any further. It's over your head, don't even try to understand."
That's what I'm getting from you. It's as though you don't want to debate the issue.
I like to think I'm receptive to new ideas. No matter what I'm talking about, I'm always open to the possibility that I could be wrong. But if the other side doesn't want to put up a fight, why even bother...

Come on, give it a try. I just posted a bunch of stuff in post #144 and you're not responding to any of it.

Why is that tactic wrong on so many levels? You keep on bringing up influence. So what? What's the problem with influencing people? If there's something here that's so obvious that I'm missing, I want to know what it is!
I have a suggestion: How about, instead of being more concerned with insulting people who disagree with you, debate the relevant issue?

What I WILL enforce is that everyone else in the room will not be subjected to the actions of a perceived jerk

Players can easily prevent themselves from being subject to the actions of a bluffer. Simply don't respond to them. Ignore the bluffing. Eventually the bluffers will realize it doesn't work and may stop trying to influence their opponent's actions.

 

[Rogue Archetype]

Yay. Ninetales/Nick entered the debate.

Playing devil's advocate nontheless

 

[Master Yoda]

thank you ninetales1234

POP shoud make a clear line about this, an offical rule , at the best with examples what is allowed and what is not allowed.

 

[PokePop]

thank you ninetales1234

POP shoud make a clear line about this, an offical rule , at the best with examples what is allowed and what is not allowed.

On the contrary, that will not be done.
Making a clear statement of what is not allowed will leave tremendous loopholes for people to find ("It's not on the list, therefore it's legal!")

 

[Chairman Kaga]

On the contrary, that will not be done.
Making a clear statement of what is not allowed will leave tremendous loopholes for people to find ("It's not on the list, therefore it's legal!")

QFT

The point is not to learn where the line is so you can skate on it. The point is for you to be so far back, you can't even see the line.

 

[Lawman]

@Nick/Ninetales: You come into a discussion, obv. haven't read the entire thread and defend your friend up in Maryland (DP). I get that. You cast a stone at me when I simply pointed out that DP's original comment WAS about waving a SINGLE card in front of the player as they search w/ a rose's. How do you NOT see that as intimidation??? Go ahead, get the uxie and I spray it with THIS lil card. You misinterpreted his intent bc you didnt even get the scenario correct. You stated he simply had a card a little higher in his hand with the other cards. THAT was not the comment.

I responded strongly to the "trick" he BRAGGED about. It is nice to know what I can expect from him as the HJ for his regional (if he chooses to attend the VA one). If you cannot figure out that this type of activity should not be allowed, esp as big of a supporter of SotG as you are, I guess you are simply "confused" again. Judges have looooooong memories. :wink:

I will gladly debate the issue with anyone if they stick to the facts. Morph the issue to something that is defendable and then accuse ME of not being FUN......just WOW.

Can you at least agree with me that a player (lets remove your friend's name from this) should not wave a single card in front of the oppo while they are searching/contemplating their move???

Keith

 

[ninetales1234]

@Nick/Ninetales: You come into a discussion, obv. haven't read the entire thread

Well, guess what? I did read it. Don't act like you know everything.

defend your friend up in Maryland

I'm defending him for taking a principled stance and not backing down from it in spite of the other folks here telling him he's wrong.

You cast a stone at me when I simply pointed out that DP's original comment WAS about waving a SINGLE card in front of the player as they search w/ a rose's.

Cast a stone? I'm asking you to defend your position.

How do you NOT see that as intimidation???

If I were DarthPika's opponent in that situation, I would probably feel intimidated. However, it's my fault for letting it get to me. I wouldn't go crying to the judges that someone is doing something that I don't like. I'd grin and bear it. I'd take it like an adult.

I will gladly debate the issue with anyone if they stick to the facts. Morph the issue to something that is defendable and then accuse ME of not being FUN......just WOW.

My goodness, you're impossible. You know what I meant. I give you a chance to defend your position and you just blow me off! Are you gonna talk about the issue or do you wanna continue splitting hairs and picking on folks who disagree with you?

We both read what DarthPika wrote. Tell me why you are so against this kind of thing? Why do you want to penalize it?

I did not accuse you of not wanting to have fun.

If you cannot figure out that this type of activity should not be allowed, esp as big of a supporter of SotG as you are, I guess you are simply "confused" again.

No, not confused, I just disagree with you. And I told you why. Now, your turn.

I invite everyone to address the things I brought up in post 144.

Can you at least agree with me that a player should not wave a single card in front of the oppo while they are searching/contemplating their move???

I would say that there are more effective strategies.

 

[NoPoke]

If I were xxxx's opponent in that situation, I would probably feel intimidated. However, it's my fault for letting it get to me. I wouldn't go crying to the judges that someone is doing something that I don't like. I'd grin and bear it. I'd take it like an adult..

WRONG. WRONG. WRONG. WRONG.


If an adult feels intimidated then what of a child?
The victims fault, Crying to the Judges, Grin and bear it, Take it like an adult? This is the language used to justify bullying.

There is no place for such intimidation in this game.

 

[baby mario]

It's worse in Seniors when you can have a 15 year old trying to intimidate an 11 year old who is much smaller than them.

I have seen it happen :frown:

 

[Godzfirefly]

If I were DarthPika's opponent in that situation, I would probably feel intimidated. However, it's my fault for letting it get to me. I wouldn't go crying to the judges that someone is doing something that I don't like. I'd grin and bear it. I'd take it like an adult.

Wow...just wow...

Since when is it the victims fault for being victimized? Is it my fault if I don't catch my opponent slipping an extra Roseanne's Research into his deck, too?

The truth is, it is against the rules to use any action that is not part of the game and its mechanics to intimidate the opponent or otherwise cause them to misplay. It is unnecessary to use such tactics, and they run contrary to the Spirit of this Game. Both the game makers and a majority of the community want it this way.

If someone makes a comment about 'bringing out Power Spray fodder' while their opponent is using Roseanne's Research, that is intentional intimidation through non-game action and should be considered wrong. DarthPika's example was more subtle, but was intentionally the equivelant. The subtlety makes it more insidious, not less wrong.

On the other side of it, we (as judges) should definately make a point of ensuring that the intimidation is intentional. There is, after all, a big difference between a player absently rearranging his hand during the opponent's turn with the opponent misinterpretting, and someone trying to intimidate. Especially when the person may just be legitimately moving a Power Spray in their hand to make it easier to use in a timely manner against what is Roseanne'd.

 

[Rogue Archetype]

Pokemon Energy Cards ≈ Magic: the Gathering Land Cards
Pokemon Tool Cards ≈ Yu Gi Oh Equip Magic Cards
Pokemon Stadium Cards ≈ Yu Gi Oh Field Magic Cards
Tabletop games with private information (like your hand in Pokemon)- there are plenty of those!
Trading card games with shuffled decks (like Pokemon)- plenty of those as well!
I could go on, but I think that's enough examples- Pokemon is not a unique game.

I didn't say there weren't other card games.

People kept trying to say you should be able to decieve in Pokemon BECAUSE you can in OTHER card games.

My statement was (and still is) "POKEMON is not INTENDED to be like other games."
That's why you can't tell me because X is allowed in THAT game, it's ok in THIS game.

You of all people know that SPIRIT OF THE GAME in Pokemon makes it SO much different than Yugioh and Magic and Poker.. etc.

This entire discussion is about SPIRIT OF THE GAME and sportsmanship in THE GAME OF POKEMON.

I cannot lose this argument. I'm simply showing people the SOTG Guidelines and asking them to remember that there should NOT a cut-throat style of play involved.

Comparison:

Me in Poker days

Them: "can I take my bet back?"
Me: HECK-TO-THE-NAW!!!!

Me in Pokemon days:

Them: "I didn't see the Unown G on there. Can I attack something else?"
Me (at states!): "yeah man. hit something else. It's all good."

My intent is WWWWAY different in other games than in Pokemon.

People keep using POKER as an example.

I'm sorry. That is a WEAK argument.
Poker is RUTHLESS. In Poker, I'm trying my best to deceive, swindle, and take your rent money, paycheck, and leave you as busted as possible. If you misread your hand and I REALLY won that pot, that's YOUR problem. I'm sitting down to win at all costs.
I'm gonna bluff, deceive, and do whatever it takes to make my money. It's do or die. Me or You.

How IN THE WORLD is that supposed to be compared to POKEMON???

In pokemon, it's NOT who wins or loses.
It's all about being part of an emotionally safe atmostphere where comradery and sportsmanship is held in high-esteem.
In Pokemon, you're simply playing the game for the sake of playing the game.

There's no Opportunity cost in Pokemon.
I understand Magic and Yugioh involve MONEY. This changes the dynamic altogether. This makes the game more serious.

Pokmeon costs you nothing to play. There's no opportunity costs that need to be involved.
(all technicalities to the side of course ... such as costs of acquiring the cards for your deck and other supplies).

Let's stop comparing Pokemon to other card games to justify operating in any manner that is not consistent with the sprit of the game.

THIS THREAD HAS TAUGHT ME ONE THING:

People really don't know what "SPIRIT OF THE GAME" Is.

It's truly beyond their comprehensional abilities to rationalize this thread's topic because they REALLY don't understand the concept of SOTG.

That's our problem here.

Let's look at Ash Catchum.
He plays to win. He tries very hard to win.
However, his goal is not to win. It is to master the art of battling and he is encouraged by his loses.
Self-improvement is his goal.

The game of Pokemon has a set of univeral values that are altruistic.
SOTG requires you to behave like a decent, considerate, and thoughtful person.

THAT is what seperates it from any other card game I can think of.

 

[yoyofsho16]

The problem with your argument, nintales, is that DarthPika's INTENT was to fool the opponent. If he mistakenly holds a card above his hand and his opponent believes it is a Power Spray, that is their fault. Hand motions, eyes, facial expression, all of these things can make a clear line between a mistake and a clear attempt at fooling the opponent. That is not allowed in any circumstance.

 

[DarthPika]

The problem with your argument, nintales, is that DarthPika's INTENT was to fool the opponent. If he mistakenly holds a card above his hand and his opponent believes it is a Power Spray, that is their fault. Hand motions, eyes, facial expression, all of these things can make a clear line between a mistake and a clear attempt at fooling the opponent. That is not allowed in any circumstance.

So, now your saying that if I've been drawing dead for a few turns(probably obviously frusterated at it), and I suddenly I draw the winning card, I'm not allowed to bluff so my opponent doesn't realize that I have a potential game winning card in my hand? Brother...

If I draw X card that can win the game for me on the next turn, I am NOT going to act like I have anything. Letting your opponent know that you just drew a good card is STUPID.

 

[The Captain]

I didn't say there weren't other card games.

People kept trying to say you should be able to decieve in Pokemon BECAUSE you can in OTHER card games.

My statement was (and still is) "POKEMON is not INTENDED to be like other games."
That's why you can't tell me because X is allowed in THAT game, it's ok in THIS game.

You of all people know that SPIRIT OF THE GAME in Pokemon makes it SO much different than Yugioh and Magic and Poker.. etc.

This entire discussion is about SPIRIT OF THE GAME and sportsmanship in THE GAME OF POKEMON.

I cannot lose this argument. I'm simply showing people the SOTG Guidelines and asking them to remember that there should NOT a cut-throat style of play involved.

Comparison:

Me in Poker days

Them: "can I take my bet back?"
Me: HECK-TO-THE-NAW!!!!

Me in Pokemon days:

Them: "I didn't see the Unown G on there. Can I attack something else?"
Me (at states!): "yeah man. hit something else. It's all good."

My intent is WWWWAY different in other games than in Pokemon.

People keep using POKER as an example.

I'm sorry. That is a WEAK argument.
Poker is RUTHLESS. In Poker, I'm trying my best to deceive, swindle, and take your rent money, paycheck, and leave you as busted as possible. If you misread your hand and I REALLY won that pot, that's YOUR problem. I'm sitting down to win at all costs.
I'm gonna bluff, deceive, and do whatever it takes to make my money. It's do or die. Me or You.

How IN THE WORLD is that supposed to be compared to POKEMON???

In pokemon, it's NOT who wins or loses.
It's all about being part of an emotionally safe atmostphere where comradery and sportsmanship is held in high-esteem.
In Pokemon, you're simply playing the game for the sake of playing the game.

There's no Opportunity cost in Pokemon.
I understand Magic and Yugioh involve MONEY. This changes the dynamic altogether. This makes the game more serious.

Pokmeon costs you nothing to play. There's no opportunity costs that need to be involved.
(all technicalities to the side of course ... such as costs of acquiring the cards for your deck and other supplies).

Let's stop comparing Pokemon to other card games to justify operating in any manner that is not consistent with the sprit of the game.

THIS THREAD HAS TAUGHT ME ONE THING:

People really don't know what "SPIRIT OF THE GAME" Is.

It's truly beyond their comprehensional abilities to rationalize this thread's topic because they REALLY don't understand the concept of SOTG.

That's our problem here.

Let's look at Ash Catchum.
He plays to win. He tries very hard to win.
However, his goal is not to win. It is to master the art of battling and he is encouraged by his loses.
Self-improvement is his goal.

The game of Pokemon has a set of univeral values that are altruistic.
SOTG requires you to behave like a decent, considerate, and thoughtful person.

THAT is what seperates it from any other card game I can think of.

Ok listen, different people want different things from the game. You want one thing i want another. SotG, is also a matter of interpritation what wrong and whats not. People like me, and ninetails honestly bevieve that if we are intimidated its our fault for letting it get to us. Not our opponents for being unfair tward us.

Pokemon, does require an oppertunity cost, even if its only time. Everything, requires an oppertunity cost, thats kind of the defininition. And these "technicalities" you speak off, you do realize that having a good deck is at least half the game...

Finally you're using Ash from pokemon, a fictional charachter, as an example. I think most people in this discussion aren't nine.

Now, I have an idea. Because a good point was brought up. A 14 year old intimidating and 11 year old is much different than a 17 year old intimindating a 25 year old. So why don't we adjust the rules based on the division .

(sorry for the atrocious spelling)