Where's the love?

[bullados]

Ryan, I'm going to time the length of 15 seconds for you by holding down my dash (-) key. Let's see how long 15 seconds really is...

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That was 480 dashes. Holding it down for 15 seconds. This is not an especially fast computer (3 yr old HP laptop running Vista). Try it out for yourself. You'll be surprised at exactly how long 15 seconds truly is.

Another assumption that you're making is that all players are high level players. News flash: THEY ARE NOT. In fact, I'd venture to say that most players out there don't really understand what Slow Play truly is. That is at least one of the reasons Judges exist. To inform players of the rules and regulations and to enforce them as consistently as possible across the entire event.

Are we perfect at this goal? No. Show me a single game that requires non-automated Judging where the Judges themselves ARE perfect. That's called living in a dream world. Do we do the best that we can with the tools that we're given? I'd like to think that we, on the whole, do.

Once again, if there are any problems with the Judging staff or with one Judge in particular, email PCI using their [email protected] email address. I'm certain that every email is reviewed, and every issue is taken to heart as much as possible. Please, though, only report issues to which you have first hand knowledge. It makes the entire process that much more efficient.

 

[Drew Holton]

Ryan has hit on one of the main problems. Most judges adhere to the guidelines very strictly when most of the time they should not do so.

When I say that most judges are not top quality players, I'm simply referring to their lack of play experience. This leads to an inability to know how long an action should take or how complex a situation really is. As a result, horrible mistakes are made when a judge feels the need to make a judgment call on something like slow play. Most judges are 100% accurate on specific rulings and are not lacking in that area of expertise.

As Diaz said, a simple time extension would be a very easy solution to the problem. POP cannot argue that they are going for a timely event when it took over an hour for each round of Nationals to be completed. A five minute extension would not add too much more time to the day.

Also, I don't know if judges are aware at how huge of a jump it is from the first warning to a prize penalty for the second "offense." Not only was I never made aware that there was such a jump, but the jump itself is way too harsh for a judgment call type offense. A prize penalty can swing a game dramatically, while something simple like a time extension does not have a direct impact on the game.

 

[SD PokeMom]

'something simple like a time extension' might not have a 'direct impact' on one game, but multiply that across every round of a 1300 player tournament and see how it impacts the *event*...

'mom

 

[NoPoke]

Drew, I can't comment on your experiences at USA Nationals or other USA tournaments. I can with 100% confidence say that the judges I worked with on staff at Worlds were not at all strict on the specific thinking time examples in the penalty guidelines. So if those same judges were involved at USA Nationals then I'd be surprised if a strict regime was imposed on the players.

@mom, a problem that will constantly beset this thread is that it is a mix of the specific and the general. Drew and others will probably argue correctly about the impact of a brief time extension on a specifc case is minimal. I know that your comment is made about the general case and that you would add a small time extension if warranted. But will the players see that distinction? I've yet to see any acknowledgement from the players that the guidelines we are all given is that complexity is not a defence.

 

[Drew Holton]

Well I hope the staff would be preparing for the next round while the last few games are finishing up. It already takes them 20-30 minutes in between rounds as it is, so maybe if that nonsense was streamlined a bit, the time could be found without impacting the event at all.

 

[SD PokeMom]

Well I hope the staff would be preparing for the next round while the last few games are finishing up. It already takes them 20-30 minutes in between rounds as it is, so maybe if that nonsense was streamlined a bit, the time could be found without impacting the event at all.

'that nonsense'? how are the next round's pairings supposed to be made, printed, posted and the next round's match slips printed/cut/distributed when all the previous round's match results aren't in?

please enlighten us to as what 'nonsense' we should be doing while waiting for 'your' match to complete...when slip results are already entered in TOM as they are turned in.

@ian: obviously, that distinction is not seen.

'mom

 

[evil psyduck]

And add on to those listed above the players who do not fill out the match slips correctly or leave without filling them out.

 

[Drew Holton]

If it takes twenty minutes to do the things you listed, then something is obviously wrong.

Please don't insult the player's intelligence with petty insults. I am offering constructive criticism, something imperative for an organization to run successfully. You are choosing to ignore our valid complaints and furthermore you insult me at every opportunity.

NoPoke, as Vergel stated, has said horrible things about me in this thread, but I will choose to ignore his comments. Please address the issues with an open mind, something apparently impossible on the 'gym.

 

[Jeremy Badeaux]

"the thing everyone is complaining about is the how the judges who AREN'T good are left to continue being terrible without penalty" - The Ralts

Just taking this moment to enjoy the humor in this quote being part of the basis of a topic about how people are attacking all judges. lol

I remember a few topics from this year.
A states where 3 people were all discovered to have decklists that were off by one or two cards:
The 2 local players got to keep playing and the out of state player got a DQ.
Some PTOs and Judges circled the wagons and started shouting that there was nothing wrong about how it was handled.


A player at Nats getting penalties just because the opponent said he had already used Claydol and the Judge simply took whatever the opponent said as gospel when handing out penalties.
The player was promptly attacked and told it was all his fault because he didn't appeal it to the HJ.

A telling snippet in regards to the Houston Regs.

I had a lot of fun at this years Regionals! Minus all the fun that went on, I went 4-4 with MANLY Ga-Ga, but sad to say the judges in my opinion were not the best... Even though we had some judges seemed to be "new" at this. While in the tournament, I heard some of the players ask to see the compendium, as though they did not agree with the ruling that they were given, but the judge responded with "I don't need the compendium," being extremely positive with the ruling they had given, even though they were incorrect. For example, in one of the matches, Andy M. played Azelf and used the power Time Walk. The judge walked by, picked up the match slip, and said "So are you scooping?" The judge should not have interfered with the match, and waited to see if the match was done. This is only one of the many "bad" judging calls that took place. Hopefully, next year Regionals will improve from the mistakes that happened this year, and I am looking forward to it!

People don't have problems with all judges (not the sane people anyways), but there are bad judges that simply continue to be bad judges and it seems like just about every staff-oriented person on Pokegym jumps in to defend the staff of any other event, regardless of what happened.

People have trouble with the growing, "blue wall of silence" mentality in regards to how staffing issues are handled.

When a topic comes up where somebody was harassed by a judge at an event and I can safely assume that there will be at least one post attacking the victim for not doing enough to fix a problem that shouldn't have ever existed, then something is seriously wrong.

People are potentially missing trips to worlds over bad judging calls and they are attacked for it because of some notion that anything against one judge is something against all judges.

After all of those people bringing up real problems and being attacked for it, groups of people are finally asking why there are constant issues with judges and now the good judges are picking up a persecution complex over something that was never aimed at them in the first place.

There will always be whiners who get angry when a judge makes a good call and it costs them a game, but creating a wall to shield yourselves from addressing real problems is seen as less than satisfactory by many people it would seem.


Just the two cents of some crazy guy though, so take it how you will. lol

 

[Prime]

I don't understand what the players expect the judges to say in this thread and threads like this. The players bring up examples of other judges doing weird things and expect the other judges, judges totally unrelated to those possibly making mistakes, to answer for them.

Whatever the judges say, it won't appease the disgruntled players.

Might as well let them just keep thinking the judges are lame, no talent players, egomaniacs, while the judges keep running those events smoothly and getting no thanks for it.

 

[PokePop]

If it takes twenty minutes to do the things you listed, then something is obviously wrong.

Please don't insult the player's intelligence with petty insults. I am offering constructive criticism, something imperative for an organization to run successfully. You are choosing to ignore our valid complaints and furthermore you insult me at every opportunity. .

Two way street there Drew.
Shall I review your comments in this thread and pull out all the insults you're tossing around left and right without any concern with how insulting you are being?

Let's just take the last one: "all that nonsense".
You assume that time is being taken up with nonsense. You don't ask.
Just toss off a thoughtless insult.

Then turn around and take petty offense at any reply to contradict any statement you've made?
This is not the World Cup. Stop falling down on the ground in agony whenever an opposing remark passes within three feet of you?

As for ignoring "valid complaints", how long are you going to ignore the point that the Guidelines specifically direct judges (and players) that complexity is not to be considered?

Ignorance is also a two way street.

 

[Jeremy Badeaux]

I don't understand what the players expect the judges to say in this thread and threads like this. The players bring up examples of other judges doing weird things and expect the other judges, judges totally unrelated to those possibly making mistakes, to answer for them.

Whatever the judges say, it won't appease the disgruntled players.

Might as well let them just keep thinking the judges are lame, no talent players, egomaniacs, while the judges keep running those events smoothly and getting no thanks for it.

I agree with that one, but many of the judges on Pokegym make a habit out of blindly defending other judges and go out of their way to make excuses for them.

With that in mind, it kind of looks like wanting to have the best of both worlds.
"You can't say that because I know this judge would never do this/everybody makes mistakes/you should have appealed to the HJ/don't whine on here about it."
"You can't expect me to say anything about this because I'm not involved with this discussion."

Thanks for proving my point about that whole, "blue wall of silence" thing.
An attack against any judge is an attack against all judges.

People have gone out of their way to specify that what they have said does not apply to all judges, but I guess accepting that they are not attacking everybody would kind of make a lot of that misplaced anger look rather silly. :lol:

 

[SD PokeMom]

If it takes twenty minutes to do the things you listed, then something is obviously wrong.

Please don't insult the player's intelligence with petty insults. I am offering constructive criticism, something imperative for an organization to run successfully. You are choosing to ignore our valid complaints and furthermore you insult me at every opportunity.

NoPoke, as Vergel stated, has said horrible things about me in this thread, but I will choose to ignore his comments. Please address the issues with an open mind, something apparently impossible on the 'gym.

let's see: masters at us nationals was 2 flights, times ~8 pages of pairings per flight, times the number of pairings boards in the hall.

print, collate, tape them together, get them posted to all the boards and get all the 800+ players seated before the round can begin; print/cut/distribute match slips to each table.

again: what part of this was the hive/runners/staff supposed to have done BEFORE all the results are in?

i didn't see you answer that question, just throw accusations of 'insults'.

like it or not, this is the REALITY of what goes on 'behind the computer' at an event. 20 minutes is too long?

'mom

 

[Drew Holton]

If the match slips are the laggard part of the operation, then the surrounding operations should be improved to cope with time disparity needed for the match slips. Getting printers that print off rolls would eliminate the need for all the taping. Or perhaps incorporating more electronics would do the trick. You are failing to see how the operation can be improved and simply see it how it currently exists.

I acknowledge that how the guidelines exist now, that "complexity" is not a valid excuse. Again you are seeing stuff how it currently exists and not how it should exist. Perhaps complexity should be added as a valid excuse.

 

[Jeremy Badeaux]

let's see: masters at us nationals was 2 flights, times ~8 pages of pairings per flight, times the number of pairings boards in the hall.

print, collate, tape them together, get them posted to all the boards and get all the 800+ players seated before the round can begin; print/cut/distribute match slips to each table.

again: what part of this was the hive/runners/staff supposed to have done BEFORE all the results are in?

i didn't see you answer that question, just throw accusations of 'insults'.

like it or not, this is the REALITY of what goes on 'behind the computer' at an event. 20 minutes is too long?

'mom

Depends on what printer you use at the event. lol
[/nerd humor]

Seriously, some people don't know how much work really goes into every event behind the scenes and when an event goes of flawlessly, nobody notices anything but their own games.
I can only imagine the headache of running the computer at Nats. lol

Staffing is pretty much organized chaos at any big event (it can look like a hot mess at times, but it is going according to plan). lol

That being said, there really are some terrible judges who get to keep judging when they shouldn't.
There are also some highly competitive players who say that the staff should only be comprised of highly competitive players. . . but would give up their chance to win a trip to worlds in order to judge.

Meh, both sides keep hitting some kind of unreasonable points on this one.

EDIT:

If the match slips are the laggard part of the operation, then the surrounding operations should be improved to cope with time disparity needed for the match slips. Getting printers that print off rolls would eliminate the need for all the taping. Or perhaps incorporating more electronics would do the trick. You are failing to see how the operation can be improved and simply see it how it currently exists.

I acknowledge that how the guidelines exist now, that "complexity" is not a valid excuse. Again you are seeing stuff how it currently exists and not how it should exist. Perhaps complexity should be added as a valid excuse.

Not to sound rude or anything, but are you planning on buying every PTO/HJ a printer that prints off rolls?

In the time I was typing that people were being unreasonable, you decided that PTOs should all go out and buy a special type of printer that they would probably only ever use at big events. lol

 

[Cyrus]

There's a very thankless element to what judges do. Even if the staff gets 99.9% of the rulings right on a given day, there's still that one ruling that will be left sour with someone, and so he/she may jump to conclusions and berate the entirety of the judging that day.

This is something that doesn't even go away if judges were to ever become paid employees of TPCi, because most of the staff at Nationals are already pretty familiar with being smart, resourceful, and careful in their "non-pokemon" lives.

Granted, it's just as unfair to call judges saints for what they do, since everyone knows of a "that guy" who is the epitome of bad judging. However, it's really more good than bad by a long shot.

Box of Fail could've stood to word what he said much better: it's not that being negative does anyone good, so much as being critical. And being posting on a message board "is" usually more directly effective in getting across your point to the judge or judges you're critical with (assuming you know who they are).

 

[SD PokeMom]

you're saying having OP purchase *special* printers which use *special* paper will be so much more effective than using a stock monochrome laserprinter which uses ordinary 8.5 x 11 paper?

and what happens when things go wrong, as they ALWAYS do?

'mom

 

[PokePop]

I acknowledge that how the guidelines exist now, that "complexity" is not a valid excuse. Again you are seeing stuff how it currently exists and not how it should exist. Perhaps complexity should be added as a valid excuse.

You are accusing judges of judging badly, so it is you who is discussing this in terms of "how things now exist".

If you wish to take this into a discussion of how things should exist in the future, that's a whole different discussion.
Please do so.
But that doesn't get paired with comments that judges that don't top cut all the time can't appreciate the complexity of the choices.

So, are we moving to discussing the future now?

 

[ShadowCard]

NoPoke, I like this description from the Penalty Guidelines better than the one that uses the term "brisk":

7.4. Game Tempo
The pace of a Pokémon TGC game should be moderate and lively, ...

@ PokeDad: Please include the link for my quote so that it is not read out of context. Ultimately, it wasn't the missed ruling that bugged me but instead the judge's refusal to check on the ruling and his insistence that he was correct.

In the judge's defense, he was the only judge remaining for the side event. I think we were the last side event of the night. The judge that I noticed was "off the clock" and just happened to be walking around.

 

[Drew Holton]

I was simply stating a solution to the problem that SD-Pokemom kept bringing up. Its probably not the only solution but was the first I thought of, and obviously did not consider budget. Also, as you stated it would probably only be necessary at big events so it would be something POP invested in for Nationals/ Worlds. I did not intend the topic to veer off into this area, and apologize about it. However if it was going to continue being brought up as if there was no way to avoid spending twenty minutes in between rounds, I felt the need to show that there are indeed ways to trim the time.

Again, my main beef is with the current guidelines and their improvement.