Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Thoughts on 2 day Regional.. As seen by Jimmy Ballard...

T

Top Cut Comics

Member
With the overall growth of the game in the past few years our tournaments arent exactly getting any shorter. With tournament times creeping into the 20-24 hour range considering drive times, this is something that we need revisit and consider what is best for the people of this game. Regionals is one of the most enjoyable local-ish event we have. The prizes are fantastic, the competition is fierce, and the day is soooo long. Ugh!

Ok, now onto the issue at hand…

Should Regionals be a 2 day event???

I would like to take this time to point out some pros from each stand point. 1) the player, 2) the PTO, and 3) the parent. This is going to be a little long winded. However if you take the time to actually read it all, you may actually understand the issues at hand and offer up logical, UNSELFISH solutions to this issue facing our game. Keep in mind, it is not meant to benefit YOU personally. These are suggestions/issues that face all of us as a whole.

First let me start by saying, I support it as a Player, a PTO and a Parent. It is no secret I would prefer to have these events over a 2 day stretch. It is an exciting event and should be celebrated for as long as possible. For those who feel otherwise I will try to point out how it can be done logistically.

Below I pulled the attendances from last years events. This will be the guide I use to show a simple structure that could possibly be used.

South East 31 / 57 / 103 = 191
Southern California 35 / 63 / 229 = 327
Mountain West 22 / 46 / 76 = 144
Midwest 42 / 58 / 105 = 205
North East 48 / 49 / 160 = 257
East Canada 42 / 46 / 81 = 169
Great Lakes 36 / 48 / 146 = 230
Northern California 22 / 28 / 72 = 122
Florida 50 / 63 / 131 = 244
Mid-Atlantic 24 / 42 / 100 = 166
Mississippi Valley 45 / 73 / 117 = 235
North West 60 / 69 / 172 = 301
New England 27 / 44 / 75 = 146
Southern Plains 69 / 70 / 166 = 305

Based on these numbers I noticed the highest attendance in one particular age group was 229 players. GREAT JOB CALIFORNIA!!! With this attendance P!P requires that we run 8 rounds for players between 129 and 256. If I recall correctly, Regionals can allow up to a top 32. This part alone could be up to a 5-6 hour event all its own. WOW!!!’

Below I would like to show a basic timetable for 8 rounds of swiss and a top 32 if I were running the event.

Registration…10am to 11:30 am
Start time 12:00pm
Round 2 1:00pm
Round 3 2:00pm
Round 4 3:00pm
Round 5 4:00pm
Round 6 5:00pm
Round 7 5:45pm (All have eaten by then)
Round 8 6:30pm

The above schedule is if you have food on site or VERY close to the venue. Below will be a schedule if you do not have a place for food relatively close.

Registration…10am to 11:30 am
Start time 12pm
Round 2 12:45am
Round 3 1:30pm
Lunch
Round 4 3:30pm
Round 5 4:15pm
Round 6 5:00pm
Round 7 5:45pm
Round 8 6:30pm

I prefer to use the top schedule. The organizer has the control over where the tournament is held. If they want to use the top schedule, find a location near food. It is the optimal way to run an event. As you see all players should be out by 7ish. The ability to start every round on the hour absorbs all lag time and the event WILL stay on schedule. This will allow the players who didn’t make the cut to travel home that evening and possibly have no lodging costs for the whole event.

In the bottom schedule there can be lags between rounds by players going past time, and the time it takes to get everyone seated. However, if the expectation is set prior to the event, players WILL do their best to ensure a timely tournament. Put the ownership in their hands. Do not give them any reasons to blame the organizer or staff. Definitely all should be gone by 9pm, even with the lag time. This includes staff as well.

Take notice of the later start time. Let me explain the thinking behind this. As pointed out in the other thread, people have to drive several hours to go to attend Regionals. This would allow them to sleep in a little longer and NOT have to absorb a hotel room for that particular night. This would limit the players cost to one night of hotel expenses.

Day 2

There have been many suggestions/complaints about where to host this. Some sighting budget reasons, some sighting proximity of local venues, some just don’t like day 2 period. To the people who don’t like day 2 let me ask you this… Do you or have you ever traveled to play Pokemon cities over a weekend? 2 events, 2 days same amount of time only MUCH, MUCH more on the line. Why would you even consider bashing a day 2 idea if you have gone to a full weekend event before? I just don’t get it. Let me address the other two issues separately.

Budget (This includes staff, venue, food, lodging)

Staff – Day 2 would require 2 judges per age group and a head judge for each under optimal circumstances. This should be compensated the same as day 1. There can be a more exclusive staff card printed to encourage judges to stay. It could also be an incentive used by the Head judge to promote some consistency and as a training tool. Don’t automatically pick your day two staff. Let them earn it on day one. Product can also be a strong compensation draw. I read someone say... P!P can print money. I never looked at it that way, but it seems to be true.

Venue – I always thought having it at a local card shop would be ideal. Even if the place is 30 minutes away from the day one venue it can still be used. These people travel for cities and should have no qualms about traveling for a day two TOP CUT event, especially with what’s on the line. I simply don’t understand this argument. If a card shop is not available, there are some other venues that would LOVE to host a 60ish player event for minimal or no cost. Libraries, restaraunts, village or town halls, the organizer just has to find them. I know it’s difficult, but it can be done.

Food – Again, I am using cities as my benchmark. What do we do when we host 2 cities in a weekend? This should be no different. We all need to eat regardless.

Lodging – Most PTO’s live close enough to the venue to travel for day 1 and day 2. Out of town judges should only come if they have the understanding they will receive XYZ compensation in exchange for a potential 2 day event. Knowing this up front will allow them to make a logical decision on whether or not to attend.

If we choose to go to a 2 day Regional event, it would decrease stress on everyone involved. Players, Judges, and parents would be able to make good decisions while not under duress from the event.

To wrap this up, I believe this is needed to compensate the growth of the game at the Regionals level. Attendance is way up. People will travel. We just need to do a good job at promoting it as a 2 day event UP FRONT!!! If the players, judges and parents understand that this is a real possibility they will adjust accordingly.

Discuss,
Jimmy
 
Last edited:
And now, for my argument as to why it does not need to be a two day event, once again from a PTO and a parent perspective.

Move your timetables up by ONE HOUR for Registration - go 9:00 to 10:30

My schedule for last year was:

Registration…9 am to 10:00 am (we started at 8:30 when we are set and ready)
Start time 11:00am (ish, I think we were within 15 minutes)
Round 2 12:00 noon
Round 3 1:30 (allowing for 30 minute lunch, on site)
Round 4 2:20 pm
Round 5 3:10 pm
Round 6 4:00pm
Round 7 4:50 (All have eaten by then)
Round 8 5:40 pm

Ending at 6:30 pm. 45 minute dinner break - 7:15 begin the finals
Top 32 - 7:15
Top 16 8:15
Top 8 9:15
Top 4 10:15
Top 2 11:15

We were out of there by midnight with cleanup (only having a 7 round, top 16 in the largest age group)

This is the projected timeframe for the LARGEST Event in the country. Still all within one day.

I think we have to stress here that over the years, the larger organizers have learned to (a) streamline their door prizes not to add time to their events and (b) keep these things moving.

We all know, staff and organizers, walking in that this is going to be a LONG day. I just don't see the necessity of going to 2 days at this point.

In reality, you only have 16 players (maybe 24) playing after 8:00 at night. To me, that seems acceptable.

I think that you lose a lot going to the 2-day system, unless you absolutely have to.

What is the tragic end result, worst case scenario? Having to go Swiss-1 for rounds.

Only EVER had to do it once, and with the feedback from players and parents, who are WAY too versed in these requirements, I will never look to do this again.

That's my counterpoint to this discussion.

Would I attend a 2-day event for Regionals? Sure, but I would love to know the projected schedule on day 2. Are we starting at 9:00 am, or noon? It does affect travelling home.

Personally, I enjoy the long day Saturday, sleeping in Sunday, and going to shop at IKEA.

Worlds, Nationals, different atmospheres, as you have "captive" audiences.

After 8 years of running these, and talking to TOs who run them as well (including 2-days), and talking to parents about it (at 8:00 when their 11 year old is in the top-4) most prefer one-day.

Vince
 
Vince, I agree that it CAN be done in one day.

However, we are selling entertainment and the overall experience. Can you tell me that playing at an event for 10-14 hours plus drive time is an ideal experience?

I cant say this is the ideal experience P!P has in mind for its patrons.

Jimmy
 
Last edited:
If endurance is supposed to be a factor in being able to win a Regional tournament, then yes fitting it all into one day is part of the game and would be logical.

If not, then it really doesn't look like fun to begin the Finals at 7:15pm. Maybe the older Seniors and Masters are raring to go, but as the parent of a competitive Junior, I'm sure he's not thinking as well as he could after 7-8 hours of gameplay, so it's almost unfair to force them to then compete for all the marbles when they're not at their best. They're often the most emotional players too, so they take a loss harder than the older kids. If it's due to sleepiness then it's just a shame to force this schedule on them. (And I can see the argument that Juniors are the minority, so just allow me that this is still a game aimed at their demographic.)

meganium45 said:
I think that you lose a lot going to the 2-day system, unless you absolutely have to.
Click to expand...

Can you please share more about this thought? What does the player, parent, or PTO lose?
 
There was already a thread for this. The clear majority of players both realized it was necessary and wanted it. Can they be done in one day? Possibly. If everything goes perfect, it starts very early, and people want to stay late. In some areas, even if everything goes perfect, the tournament can still run past midnight.

We've had several Regionals go to 4 AM last year. IMO, anything past midnight is unacceptable. I know some of the PTOs are against it because it can produce an extra day of work for them, but let's be fair:

1) We're asking for two day Regionals. Not States, not Cities obviously. PTOs run one Regional tournament per year.

2) It will make the event less stressful for not just the players, but the PTOs as well.

3) This has already been done before, and was successful (Northeast, 2009).

Pokemon is a very change averse game. It seems too difficult to change things that clearly aren't working. How long did we know a turn extension would be better than just 30 minute time limits? How long did we know Nationals neeeded to be extended to a multi-day event? Granted, these things eventually did get changed. Two day Regionals will be no different. It's a matter of time. Let's hope it doesn't take another 4 AM tournament before it clicks in everyone's head.
 
First, I do not think anyone would state that the 2-day Regional was a success, from multiple perspectives.

The numbers were down, and therefore the two day event ending up having two very short days.

I am the parent of competive Juniors, and know all about the marathon events, and the toll it takes on kids. I have been dealing with the issues for over 8 years now, both as a TO and as a parent.

We go so far as to have "training" and specific instructions for the kids to make sure they stay at their peak for the extended days, for both States, Regionals and Nationals.

Heck, in some areas, we hear about Cities going to 10:00 pm or later. The 4 am Regional in Florida was simply a shame (not criticizing, just a statement), and I was a part of my own Regional that went to 2am a few years ago, and I hated it. Every other year, we have kept our events on schedule, and made sure that we were done by midnight at the earliest, with two significant breaks during the day.

The only age divisions truly hit by this change are the Masters. For every other age division, the day is a bit longer, but not significantly that States. Even for Masters, in the larger areas, you only increase the event by 1.7 hours (one swiss and one elim).

I consider Pokemon like any other high level hobby. You are going to have a few times a year where you have long days, "Super Bowls", "SATs" where you have to know not only how to play the game, but how to handle the pressure, and the length of the day.

It is no accident that I have Pokeball Dodgeball at my Regionals. I feel the kids MUST have an outlet for their pressure, and just be able to "have a ball" between rounds. We also have a quieter side for kids who just want to wind down.

The delegate from the great state of California might be staring at me asking what they do when they get above 256 in Masters this year at the Regional, and my sad answer has to be swiss minus one. At some point the length of an event has to dictate the number of rounds. This may be one of four regionals that would be considered for the 2-day scenario (Oregon, SoCal, Florida, Texas).

I also believe there should be accountability, where any event that ends after 10:00 pm should have a report submitted explaining why they ended at such a time.

We are growing, and growing better every year, I feel. We need to keep up the momentum.

Vince
 
Last edited:
losjackal said:
If endurance is supposed to be a factor in being able to win a Regional tournament, then yes fitting it all into one day is part of the game and would be logical.

If not, then it really doesn't look like fun to begin the Finals at 7:15pm. Maybe the older Seniors and Masters are raring to go, but as the parent of a competitive Junior, I'm sure he's not thinking as well as he could after 7-8 hours of gameplay, so it's almost unfair to force them to then compete for all the marbles when they're not at their best. They're often the most emotional players too, so they take a loss harder than the older kids. If it's due to sleepiness then it's just a shame to force this schedule on them. (And I can see the argument that Juniors are the minority, so just allow me that this is still a game aimed at their demographic.)



Can you please share more about this thought? What does the player, parent, or PTO lose?
Click to expand...

JRs usually dont have 7-8 rds, then a top cut. Most JR events at this stage have a 5 rd, maybe 6 rd event with a bit smaller top cut. All the events I have been to/seen, the PTO and HJ keeps them moving along with SEF while the MAs are finishing up their swiss rds. I have even seen the JRs finish up as the MAs end swiss! That gets them out by 7pm or so. The SRs are usually on the same schedule or 1 rd more than the JRs. Again, the HJ and PTO keep them running and in SEF while MAs finish swiss.

At the VA regional, we had a regis. time from 9-10 (or 1030). When the staff had their meeting end, we sat down and starting doing full deck checks for everyone a bit early. (Line had started to form). We had deck checks done by the end of the the registration time. The only ones deck checked after the end of regis time were the few players who were late to the venue and rec'd a game 1 loss. (even though we hadnt started yet...gotta stick with the rules) Staff had to be on site no later than 8 am (if I recall). Staying on schedule can work with a staff working the tail ends off, good computer work, good printers and players paying attention to announcements.

As for a 2 day event....yes, players, staff and PTOs will have to make choices. I know it was referenced that a 2 day regional was held in 2009, but not sure you can say it was "successful". If you look at Tom's #s from 2008 (1 day) and 2009 (2 days)....they went DOWN. Most other sites went up in 2009 with 1 day events. Ask yourselves WHY did this happen to Tom's event? Why didnt more players CHOOSE the option to play a 2 day event vs going to another Reg in a relatively close area in Philly that was 1 day? 160 MAs in Philly (NorthE) vs 75 MAs in New England (Tom's 2 day event). I know players that had the choice to go to either one and most took Philly and 1 day. Why? Was it the cost to them? Maybe the younger MA players prefered to "run on empty" and go 24 hrs straight with driving, playing and then driving back home. Is there REALLY a clamoring for this? Philly pounded the NE Reg by 111 players, the high majority of that being MAs.

Will "I" make corrections/decisions on where to Judge if Reg's go to 2 day events? Yes. Do we "need" that now? I'd say No. To the players that complain that regis time is "too early"....why is that? Usually, I hear it is bc they want to drive in and SAVE $$. How do you do that by forcing them to stay overnight, bc almost everyone THINKS they will topcut and will need a hotel reservation, if we have a 2 day event. Any family traveling will get a reservation at a decent hotel. If you want to "mandate" a hotel stay, make it friday night. That way, you get there early, well rested and PLAY your best! Plus, the tourney starts at a reasonable time and ends at a reasonable time (7 pm ish for swiss) for most of the players. Only the topcuts would have to stay.

Keith

---------- Post added 12/17/2010 at 04:31 PM ----------

I will add that the Philly Reg and the NE (Providence RI) were 273 miles apart. The Philly Reg was actually closer to the VA (DC area) event. The Mid Atl. drew 166, which was still more than the 2 day event in RI (146). In VA, we actually lost a few players to Philly, so our #s went down slightly from 2008.

Keith
 
i made a thread about this last year as well. the feedback wasn't too great. maybe this time it'll be different with Mr. Ballard providing some good points and facts.
 
Was talking to Jimmy about it earlier, and figured I could throw in a college player's perspective (a large portion of the Masters division!)

I went to the Philadelphia regional last year, and, since I don't have a car, I had to take a bus there. Not a big deal, it's only about an hour and a half. However, registration was at 9am (if I recall correctly), and there was no real early buses running on the weekends from my school to Philly. So, I had to go the night before. Luckily I have a good friend Shaw who let me stay at his house the night before (and also night after as I'll show later), so I did that. I played the tournament Sautrday, and got out at a "reasonable" time: 10:30-11 I believe it was. Obviously no buses were running at that time back to my school, so I stayed over again, again at Shaw's. It was a pleasant experience and I enjoyed it, but guess what? Shaw doesn't live in Philly anymore.

So, if I had to pay for my hotel in Philly for two nights, needless to say, would have sucked. I know Mike Pram and Luke Reed did this to come up to the tournament. If the tournament was a two day thing, I could have taken the bus Saturday morning comfortably and left Sunday evening, again comfortably. I'm sure Pram and Luke could have driven up the morning of as well if the tournament didn't start till, say, noon.

So, just another perspective to look at. I totally support 2-day regionals.


Edit: hahahahahaha @ David's Confused Pokedad
 
I know if there was a 2 day regionals event, I would not attend. First of all, my dad definately would not want to take me, seeing as he doesn't play. Secondly, I don't even know if I would want to go. I have a life, and I would not like my entire weekend to become dedicated to Regionals.
 
Another possible solution is to consolidate the Regionals, and have 6 "super" Regionals that are all two days. These could have bigger prizes, potentially giving invites to Worlds for the winners or top 2.

As it stands right now, the divisions are disproportional attendance wise. There's no reason to do a two day regional for the younger divisions, as they most likely will finish before 10 PM anyways. Also, it depends a lot on the region. The Mountain West region doesn't need two days, while the California or Texas regional almost certainly does. Thus, it's tricky to have an across the board two day regional system. If the Regionals system was to stay the same as it is now (with the same regions), I think that the individual regionals should be predetermined for one day or two, based on previous years' attendance.
 
I was actually thinking the opposite. If "too many" people are attending the Regionals now, are more Regionals the answer?

Is anyone making the argument that Regionals can be one day forever, no matter how many attend? I can't tell.
 
We could possibly add other regionals to support the growth of the game. I don't know how they would feel about paying for other trips to Nationals, but I think adding say 5 more regionals could definitely solve the problem of crazy length to regionals. I think there are quite a few PTO's that would love to be able to host an event of their own that is as large as a regional.
 
No 2 day regionals for me and my mates. Too much time to give up and too much money.

As for more regionals, why not have more nationals? Just having a go with you. They should be exclusive and adding more makes them states.

Cheers
 
have to agree with Jimmy

Regionals should be treated as the big event that it is, this might be selfish, but since we drive to Houston for ours (375 miles) usually staying overnight anyways as a 5-6hr drive is unacceptable after a long day of cards, only Nationals and Worlds has the kind of atmosphere that this has and should be savored:thumb:
 
I am also in favor of a 2 day event. I enjoy playing this game, but I don't enjoy playing it when I'm exhausted for topcut =/
To play this game requires you to spend the $ anyways. and I have seen PTO's set up discount hotel rates for players who plan to stay for an extra day. I think it has already gotten to a point where 2 day regionals need to be implemented or at try them in areas like Southern California.
 
I see no reason to not have two day regionals. It's one event out of the year, make a weekend out of it if you're planning on making top cut. If day one is running until ~1am (Oregon's in the past) there's almost no way I won't be spending that night anyway. Also, I think the two day regional should only apply for masters. With junior and senior attendance right now the second day just simply isn't needed for them. That way you don't have angry pokeparents of kids that made top cut and could've been done by 10pm-11pm but have to stay another day just for their kid to play the top cut while they have nothing to do for another day. If the arguments is that PTOs and a couple judges don't want to stick around for one more day that's silly and I think the cities argument comes into play here. I don't see the difference between a two event weekend and a two day regional, from a PTO/judge perspective. For those of you saying it's too much time/money, I don't get that. Are you really planning to drive home at 1am after an extremely long day? If so I doubt you'll be doing much the next day. If you were far enough away I could see how it might warrant an extra hotel night IF you make top cut. Theoretically if the tournament started at noon or so for masters though you could just drive up the morning of, stay that night if you make top cut, then leave next day resulting in one hotel night but a much more comfortable experience. So yeah, enough ranting, I agree with Jimmy and think two day regionals are an excellent idea.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top