Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Restoring skill to the Pokemon TCG

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Pokemon Catcher has a hand in it, but I say some of these Primes is what took skill away.

They are so easy to get into your hand, it can make it a game very one sided real early before the opponent can make much of an effort to get started.

As an old player who use to run a Jolteon Deck back in 2000-2001 which involved alot of Coin flipping, I was shocked to see 10 years later how skill-less the game seems, although I am not in any position to be competitive right now since I dont have all the resources in cards after returning to the game, I played 3-4 games recently at a league either everything has become way too easy and too powerful in this game, or I need to go out and get some Donphans, Zekroms, or something. It was ugly except in 1 game in which I didnt encounter a Prime.
 
Pokemon Catcher has a hand in it, but I say some of these Primes is what took skill away.

They are so easy to get into your hand, it can make it a game very one sided real early before the opponent can make much of an effort to get started.

You keep bringing this up, but what's the difference between a Prime and any other powerful Pokemon? Pokemon has printed broken cards that are not Primes. The only thing special about Primes is the fact that they look pretty, and there are even primes that are horrible (Slowking Prime says "hello").

I don't get how using a Prime, which is a regular card with special artwork and slightly higher rarity removes skill from the game. There is no special mechanic with Prmes. You don't get to flip a coin every time one of your opponent's non-Prime attacks your prime and get to ignore the damage if it's heads. You don't get to flip a coin every time one of your Prime Pokemon is knocked out and knock out the attacking Pokemon if it's heads. You don't get to switch your opponent's active Pokemon for one of their benched Pokemon every time you play a prime card from your hand. You don't get to knock out any non-evolved Pokemon you attack with a Prime Pokemon.

I can understand player's dissatisfaction and hatred of Pokemon Catcher even if I don't agree with it, but this hatred of Primes makes absolutely no sense to me at all.

Not all cards are created equal.
 
However, you do get to attack with zero Energy attached with a Prime Pokemon (if you match hand size). Can you do so with a not-Prime? Only "babies". Can you hit a Benched Pokemon for 40 for zero Energy with a Pokemon with 110 HP? No, only 20 damage with a Pokemon with 30 HP.

You can recover and attach Energy from the discard pile every turn with a Prime Pokemon, without using an attack to do so. Can you do so with a not-Prime? Only Jirachi, and only when played down.

You can do 60 damage rather consistently with one or fewer basic Energy cards with three Prime Pokemon. Can you do so with a not-Prime? The only ones I can think of generally have low HP use Flail when weakened, have 30 HP (Combee, who needs a damaged Benched Vespiquen), luck with coin flips (flip until tails, or Illumise), require your opponent to have a specific Pokemon type in play (Houndoom), means of inflicting multiple status conditions (Leafeon), harm your Energy set-up (Starmie), or have Energy on the Defending Pokemon already (Xatu). The one I can think of that rewards setting up your Pokemon are both Fire-weak Grass Pokemon (Sawsbuck and Jumpluff), both somewhat easily Knocked Out in this format.
 
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However, you do get to attack with zero Energy attached with a Prime Pokemon (if you match hand size). Can you do so with a not-Prime? Only "babies". Can you hit a Benched Pokemon for 40 for zero Energy with a Pokemon with 110 HP? No, only 20 damage with a Pokemon with 30 HP.

Again, the difference is between "good card" and "Prime Pokemon in General." For example, you can attach as many Fire Energy as you want from the hand to any Pokemon courtesy of a non-Prime Pokemon. For the Prime Pokemon equivalent, you have a Prime that can attach unlimited Water Energy to your Water Pokemon. Does this mean that Emboar is reducing the skill of the game? More so than Feraligatr Prime?

And in response to Yanmega Prime, we had Gyarados just last format which could hit for 90 for no energy easily on turn two. The 40 snipe can be a big deal, but to call all Prime Cards "broken" or say they remove skill from the game is a major overgeneralization. That's my point, not that there aren't some Prime Pokemon that have good attacks/abilities.

You can recover and attach Energy from the discard pile every turn with a Prime Pokemon, without using an attack to do so. Can you do so with a not-Prime? Only Jirachi, and only when played down.

Elektrik. (In one month) [CARD NOT CONFIRMED YET]

Last point: one of the biggest luck-deck/lack-of-skill decks in the format right now does not use a single Prime Pokemon in it: Zekrom Donk
 
Based on my experience in Battle Roads there is still a lot of skill needed to play. When it comes down to it, good players are still winning more then newer or inexperienced players. Good players are taking advantage of misplays and outplaying other players. There is still a luck factor and the dreaded donk but this is no different than last format. Also, how is something so broken when both sides can utilize all the seemingly broken cards.

The only mechanic right now that is a little unfair is the 1st turn advantage. Not sure what I would do to fix this but I do feel like whomever goes first has a significant advantage.

All in all, I think this format is not bad. The people winning have skill from making a solid list to playing out all matchups. Also, the people winning have put the time into test playing and learning the format.
 
(For the record, I refuse to play Catcher. I'd rather lose with honor than win with dishonor. I've traded away every Catcher I've pulled.)

That's one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever seen on PokeGym. Choosing to play a certain card is not (and shouldn't ever be) a moral decision.

Your implication that people who play Catcher are somehow 'dishonourable' would be downright offensive if it wasn't so obviously ludicrous.
 
Again, the difference is between "good card" and "Prime Pokemon in General." For example, you can attach as many Fire Energy as you want from the hand to any Pokemon courtesy of a non-Prime Pokemon. For the Prime Pokemon equivalent, you have a Prime that can attach unlimited Water Energy to your Water Pokemon. Does this mean that Emboar is reducing the skill of the game? More so than Feraligatr Prime?
Both are also afflicted by high retreat costs and attacks more costly than the Prime in question.

And in response to Yanmega Prime, we had Gyarados just last format which could hit for 90 for no energy easily on turn two. The 40 snipe can be a big deal, but to call all Prime Cards "broken" or say they remove skill from the game is a major overgeneralization. That's my point, not that there aren't some Prime Pokemon that have good attacks/abilities.
We did have that, but we no longer do in the HGSS-on format, leaving us without many good Energyless (or very low Energy) attackers that do large amounts of damage, aside from some Double Colorless Energy users.

Elektrik. (In one month) [CARD NOT CONFIRMED YET]
Which people in Battle Roads didn't have access to, because it wasn't printed yet.

Last point: one of the biggest luck-deck/lack-of-skill decks in the format right now does not use a single Prime Pokemon in it: Zekrom Donk
Arguably, some versions use Yanmega Prime.

I'm not arguing that all Pokemon Prime are "broken", just that there are a good number of them, most of comparatively high rarity. Those who have the useful Prime cards have a decent advantage when using them, and either command a high price for them, or simply aren't interested in trading them away for what someone without them might have. This is coming from someone who has enough copies of each card to run roughly any deck archetype there is.
 
With all due respect, please explain how it helped.

I do wonder if you simply disagree with the explanation. Before we had Pokemon Catcher we had Pokemon Reversal. For years I thought Pokemon Reversal was an ideal solution, but when combined with any other coin flips, it exposed the farce. Note that the other coin flips didn't "break" it or "make" it too luck based, it already was. This merely exposed the problem.

Forcing your opponent's Active to the Bench has always been useful. Forcing something from the Bench into the Active slot has not only always been useful, but been amazingly powerful... so long as it was separate from an attack.

I've seen talk of honor and bullying by people who don't really grasp the terms. This is a game. Both players have access to Pokemon Catcher, barring specific circumstances which amount to "I couldn't get any but I am willing to play with this handicap." In a tournament, there is no honor gained by not using Pokemon Catcher. It is an intended part of the game. If you do not like it and do not wish to use it, you may choose not to, but unless you have made a deck that is clearly better for not having it, you dishonor your opponent by not playing your best. This was a lesson I had to learn myself.

If you do not wish to use it in non-tournament play, that is fine. However if you choose not to and then constantly complain about others using it, your behavior once again becomes dishonorable. Intentionally handicapping yourself only is honorable when you don't complain about it.

As for it being "bullying", as someone who was bullied (and later realized had been a bully at times), that's pretty offensive. First its Pokemon. Second, remember that actual bullies come in all shapes and sizes. There's the big guy who is just naturally strong. If he's used to getting his way (like I was), he may not even realize he's being a bully. :eek: Yes, when it came to social situations I was very, very stupid. Of course by High School, of my graduating class of like 75 (so small school), there was only one person whom I never personally caught bullying anyone else... and when I brought that up once I was told I just hadn't caught her.

Yes, if you've bullied someone once, you're a bully. Just like if you lie even once, you're a liar, if you steal once, you're a thief, and if you murder once you're a murderer.

Now that some definitions are explained, bullies come in all shapes and sizes, and the worst hide behind others. The nerd who befriends the otherwise friendless big lug to combine the nerd's brains with the lug's brawn... the popular guy who may not befriend anyone too far "below" him, but who's clique outnumbers any others by at least three to one... the "nice girl" who always uses intermediaries.

There are also different bullying techniques. There's getting beat-up. There's getting teased mercilessly. There's subtle bullying, using things like back-handed compliments and manipulating social circumstances. Then there's the bully who manipulates the system. His or her agents aren't other students or their own hands... it's teachers and guidance counselors.

So how does that work for Pokemon? Yeah, this isn't just a social rant. There have been plenty of formats where the "bullies" where Pokemon that could safely sit on the Bench and work through others. Sometimes they were small and an easy Prize... but without a lot of luck you weren't ever going to see them Active unless your opponent was taking the last Prize with them. Personally I think this describes a certain popular Basic Psychic Pokemon last format used for draw power... never the official focus of the deck, yet the driving force behind it. ;)

For that matter, when Rare Candy had its previous text and effect, and Scramble Energy was legal, we had the closest thing to "bully" behavior as a Pokemon game tactic: hide in the hand until things were just right, fake being behind (manipulating the Prize count for beneficial effects is just so easy).

So tying this all up...

tl;dr: Don't throw around words like "bully" and "honor" unless you want them thrown back in your face, but do think about what can make the game better, then decide if you need to politely inform TPC or boycott the game. Sticking around while whining about it just sends a mixed message.

Edit: More posts went up while I was typing! Since it keeps coming up, it is always bad to try and tie card "quality" (power) into "rarity". It only makes sense to try to design all cards to be equally good, though that can and should take things like counters for the good cards into play. Designing bad cards is self-defeating for a game's health. I can and do accept that not all cards can be good in the same way... if it is too costly to do it any other way, just make card complexity match rarity. Give us the good but simple cards at the lower levels. :thumb:
 
I do wonder if you simply disagree with the explanation. Before we had Pokemon Catcher we had Pokemon Reversal. For years I thought Pokemon Reversal was an ideal solution, but when combined with any other coin flips, it exposed the farce. Note that the other coin flips didn't "break" it or "make" it too luck based, it already was. This merely exposed the problem.

Thanks for a lengthy reply, I've never been one to shy away from rationale debate that eschews personal attacks for a reasoned discussion of the topic at hand :thumb:

What I do notice is we share the opinion (and not just us, but many) that coin flips are bad for the game. It's something I couldn't agree with more. Unless it's some truly amazing attack or potentially game changing move, I don't see the need for coin flips.


I've seen talk of honor and bullying by people who don't really grasp the terms. This is a game. Both players have access to Pokemon Catcher, barring specific circumstances In a tournament, there is no honor gained by not using Pokemon Catcher. It is an intended part of the game. If you do not like it and do not wish to use it, you may choose not to, but unless you have made a deck that is clearly better for not having it, you dishonor your opponent by not playing your best.

Hmm, because it exists it should be used? I don't subscribe to the idea that because something is permissible it is ipso facto a good idea.

And I actually do put a lot of effort into deck construction and being able to play my best. But I also believe in the spirit of competition that pits two people at their best and most equipped.

For me (and obviously only for me) Catcher is like being challenged to a cross country marathon only to have the opponent take a baseball bat to the opponents knees 20 yards into the race. We haven't met as anywhere near equals to see who had the best strategy under those circumstances.

For me, the joy of the game is sitting across from my opponent and battling to overcome his best strategy, his best plan of attack, his top game of what he intended. Not the crippled version of what he/she was intending to do by my Cathering up all their basics before they could even begin to mount an offensive. That's not the kind of competition I find appealing.

I've honored my opponent by letting him bring his best to the table and winning or losing against that, his best plan, his highest ideas, as fully implemented as all of his skill will allow. Not the crippled, trampled and decimated version of his best because I've consistently taken away his chance to defend himself. That's what I mean by Catcher not being honorable, I feel it takes the honor from my opponent and, if I use it, I have dishonored myself because I've gone against one of my core values.

The question is about restoring skill to the TCG: eliminating needless coin flips, pleading for more balanced pokemon instead of the high attack, high HP basics. And, to me, a card like Catcher has to be included in the discussion since it's very hard to see any skill when your opponent cannot even mount an offensive. The use of Catcher strips that away. They sit there watching you pick off basic after basic while they can't even get a proper start unless by sheer luck of the draw they top deck into something good.

The inclusion of Catcher alters the game in a very fundamental way, more so than Reversal, Circulator or Warp Point as I think I've illustrated above. You don't say let's fight but I'm going to tie your hands behind your back; that's not a fight, that's a beat down. That's what I mean by bullying.

"Sure, let's sit down to a fair fight. Oh no, wait, bring that basic up so I can knock it out. And that one too. And that one. Don't forget that one. Wait, let me Junk Arm it a couple times since I see you have more basics. Oh, you can't even defend yourself now? Can't get anything decent going to challenge me? You don't have any reasonable chance of being competitive in this game? Guess it sucks to be you. I WIN!"

And this is a good thing for Pokemon how?

If you do not wish to use it in non-tournament play, that is fine. However if you choose not to and then constantly complain about others using it, your behavior once again becomes dishonorable. Intentionally handicapping yourself only is honorable when you don't complain about it.

I'm sorry if you (or anyone) had the impression I was complaining about others using it. To me it is a vital part of the discussion on restoring skill to the game, along with all the other ideas presented. I choose to not use it as a conscientious objector, my one player protest, if you will :wink:, others obviously have a different opinion. But it's something I think should be included in the discussion.

So tying this all up...

Don't throw around words like "bully" and "honor" unless you want them thrown back in your face, but do think about what can make the game better, then decide if you need to politely inform TPC or boycott the game. Sticking around while whining about it just sends a mixed message.

So tying this all up... :smile:

That's why I joined in this conversation thread to offer my thoughts on restoring skill to the Pokemon TCG. This is the beauty of the free exchange of ideas, thoughts and opinions.

Seems I'm the only one who thinks there's anything wrong with Catcher and that's ok, life will go on. I'm in agreement on most ideas others have posted, especially yours. But to not point out something (else) I think needs to be addressed would be a grave disservice to the game I enjoy.

I don't see it as dishonorable (or whining) to NOT agree with something even if everyone else does. And I don't see how expressing a contrary opinion means I have to boycott the game or I am otherwise sending mixed messages. The majority of the game is very enjoyable, that doesn't mean I think every thing they (TPCi) does is fantastic and shouldn't come under some reasoned critique.
 
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I always have to interrupt when I see people complaining about coin flips in Pokémon. For one, it fits in that category of "It's up to Japan, so don't bother," but the second reason is that coin flips are a unique part of Pokemon that actually kind of make the game interesting. I'm glad to see that coin flips aren't as game-deciding as they have been in previous formats, though the opening coin flip is again as big as ever. But remember, some luck is good for the game. If there was no luck, the game would be dull and boring. My approach embraces the luck. We don't try to change the fundamentals of the game or ban cards. We just play and enjoy more games to determine the winner.

Watching the Finals of Worlds play out this year was an epiphany for me. The way the game was decided (and other previous matches in the tournament and LCQ) was not consistent with the amount of media attention the event got. It was not consistent with the amount of hard work players had to engage in to earn their invites. It was not consistent with the phrase "to determine the World's Best Pokemon players." To me, the actual way the winners were determined looked like lighthearted, childish nonsense. I think a few players were put off by it. I know I was. These are the World Championships! Respect the players! Respect the game! Let them play!
 
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Hmm, because it exists it should be used? I don't subscribe to the idea that because something is permissible it is ipso facto a good idea.
A person can make a deck that uses Darkness Pokemon, but what if they feel it's not fair that Special Darkness Energy is unfair, because it adds 10 extra damage, so they just use basic Darkness Energy? Is that a way to build a deck? Sure. Is the deck working as well as it can? Probably not.

Don't take my argument as defending Pokemon Catcher itself; I feel the card is more overpowered than Pokemon Reversal was, but at least it doesn't bring up questions of "cheating/dice rigging" if a player gets all heads and all successful Bench-grabs.

Pokemon Catcher, like all other cards from HGSS-on, is a card that can legally be in a deck. It fits into many decks, if you can find the space for it. It gives the player who uses it a significant advantage. So does Pokemon Collector and Pokemon Communication. It is simply a matter that Catcher gives board control, while the others give search and some control over deck contents. Pokemon Catcher means very little if you cannot knock out the Pokemon you Catcher up, other than disrupting your opponent. One must consider the positive and negative aspects of cards being put into their deck; if you Catcher up a Pokemon with a very high Retreat Cost, you are exploiting an advantage as fundamentally a part of the target Pokemon as its Weakness.

And I actually do put a lot of effort into deck construction and being able to play my best. But I also believe in the spirit of competition that pits two people at their best and most equipped.

For me (and obviously only for me) Catcher is like being challenged to a cross country marathon only to have the opponent take a baseball bat to the opponents knees 20 yards into the race. We haven't met as anywhere near equals to see who had the best strategy under those circumstances.
Then equip yourself. Both players have access to Pokemon Catcher. Not using it, then saying "Catcher is like being challenged to a cross country marathon only to have the opponent take a baseball bat to the opponents knees 20 yards into the race"? You're just as welcome to take a baseball bat to their knees as well, and both of you can hobble along your merry ways to the finish line. Or you can wear kneeguards. (Vileplume anyone?)

For me, the joy of the game is sitting across from my opponent and battling to overcome his best strategy, his best plan of attack, his top game of what he intended. Not the crippled version of what he/she was intending to do by my Cathering up all their basics before they could even begin to mount an offensive. That's not the kind of competition I find appealing.

I've honored my opponent by letting him bring his best to the table and winning or losing against that, his best plan, his highest ideas, as fully implemented as all of his skill will allow. Not the crippled, trampled and decimated version of his best because I've consistently taken away his chance to defend himself...

...since it's very hard to see any skill when your opponent cannot even mount an offensive. The use of Catcher strips that away. They sit there watching you pick off basic after basic while they can't even get a proper start unless by sheer luck of the draw they top deck into something good.
For me, the joy of the game is not in playing it, but helping whoever I'm working with build the best deck they can, with the cards they have. I have more fun with that than playing, most of the time. I love crazy, elaborate combinations; I had a Gardevoir PL/Metagross UL/Giratina Lv.X PL deck that was my favorite in the MD-on season. That said, destroying the means by which your opponents set up is a valid strategy. Do lock decks upset you, because they keep your opponent from setting up? Do you play Cheerleader's Cheer, to let your opponent draw the extra card, just to let them get to their best strategy sooner than they normally would?
 
AJ, I wish to address a specific sub-point before we delve back into the main part of your discussion, though I do thank you for engaging in polite debate and will do my utmost to remain civil... which is really what we are supposed to do on a forum such as this anyway, and yet so many of us fail at it so often. :rolleyes:

On the subject of coin flips, my real qualm with them boils down to two things:

1) I'd prefer they not be used to offset extremely potent effects.

2) I'd prefer the game switched to a system of dice rolls.

The former is the easiest to explain as it directly impacts this conversation. I touched upon this in my previous post, but in case it got lost I will state it again. Pokemon Reversal is a broken card. It is not broken because it allows you to pick a new Active Pokemon from your opponent's Bench. It is not broken because it is a "tails fails" card. It is broken because it is a "tails fails" card that when it succeeds yields the classic Gust of Wind/Pokemon Catcher effect, including being a Normal Trainer (a.k.a. an Item), especially in the current metagame. In a significantly slower one Pokemon Reversal might be balanced.

It is okay for coin tosses to determine lesser outcomes. The guide lines seem to be "is it broken if someone is crazy lucky and has a game where they always hit 'heads'? If it always hits 'tails' does it cost you the game?" The reason for these guidelines is at a large scale tournament, it is improbable that those scenarios won't come up. Someone might hit all heads for every Pokeball one match. This is pretty slick, but not broken beyond belief. Likewise they might hit all tails, but it won't ruin them all by itself.

This is due to the exact nature of the effect: searching out a single Pokemon in a game full of draw and search power. Even though Pokeball is the most efficient Pokemon search card when it succeeds, even when you are unnaturally lucky (or "unlucky") and could even determine who wins the match, it is "how" it does this. You could have been lucky and drawn what you needed instead of the Pokeballs. You may not have really needed them all to work. Other draw/search power probably would have been almost as good. Perhaps the biggest balancing agent is that its not directly affecting your opponent. Still, this is a guess not even at the level of a proper hypothesis, so I could very well be wrong.

The second point is something that may seem odd to players, but for me is second nature. Still I'll mention that anyone not interested in a tangent won't miss anything terribly relevant if they stop reading with this paragraph: this tangent is meant to underscore how it is the nature of coin flips in Pokemon that causes huge swings in luck, while in many other games where actions frequently rest upon dice rolls there is somehow less of a luck factor!
In Junior High School (for me, a few years before Pokemon debuted in the US) I stated playing traditional role-playing games. By traditional, I mean not "video game" RPGs but "pen and paper, dice and character sheet based" role-playing games.

This let me appreciate that when your game is trying to represent the uncertainty of the real world, rolling dice against an appropriately generated score was most efficient. You can have a broader range of outcomes, including those that are especially good or bad. Games like chess seek to exclude this kind of luck as much as possible... which is unrealistic, but realism isn't the point of chess. Yes, chess still has luck, it just is "external" to the game system. Take this scenario: a lesser skilled player is playing a more skilled one. The lesser skilled player is just about to make a losing move, but light in the room just happens to glint of a piece, which in turn catches that player's eye. The lesser player then realizes that piece not only has a move available, but that is is a winning move! If the lighting had been different, or the seating different, the lesser player would have lost the game. While these are not truly "random" events (in that a cause can be determined), at the same time life is too complex to prevent them.

Bringing this back to Pokemon, in the RPGs I like, when you design your character you usually spend what is known as "character points" to do so. You can make abilities more likely to succeed by spending points to improve them. Without dramatically altering the game, I just would like to see a common success/fail system implemented over mere coin flips. Given the simplistic nature of Pokemon, odds are it should merely be based on a single six-sided die. Since many of us already use this in place of a coin toss, obviously many cards wouldn't be affected by this. However having a six-sided dice would allow streamlining of "luck" influenced effects. Some cards might fail on a particular number result (probably the same, standard result). Complicated multi-coin attacks would be simplified into a single dice roll. It might be "this attack does 20 times the result of the dice roll" or it might be "if you roll an even number, this attack does X. If you roll an odd number, this attack does Y. If you roll a six this attack does both X and Y."

Still that last part is a huge change for the game and a proper discussion of it should be in a different thread. I merely broached it to further explain how luck isn't bad for the game if properly managed. The game as is suffers from many variable effects being far to complex to implement. An effect that randomly selects one of your opponent's Pokemon now requires a series of coin flips (and as such simply isn't done). If the effect were based on a single six sided die, the game can easily have basic rules having you assign a specific number to the Active, and then the rest to the Bench slots. If you hit an empty slot, re-roll. Only an improbable worst case scenario is as complex for the die method as the coin method. Plus again, the simple effects we use coin tosses for already often substitute a die already.

tl;dr: Since I was so wordy, I'll summarize by stating my problem is that potent effects shouldn't depend on coin tosses. Even if they attempt to balance things out by having great versus calamitous results, over the course of a large tournament the luck factor then is amplified as the winners will naturally be the players who happened to avoid the calamitous results and/or scored the great results.

Oh, and again, I'll address more of AJ's specific points in a later post. Oh, and can I call you AJ, ajwalker?
 
What I like about coin flips is that it's a risk assessment and you can't be too sure that what you want to happen will actually happen.
 
AJ, you seem to enjoy sports metaphores, so here is one for you.

When playing football, my strategy is for my quaterback to make a pass. Part of your strategy would be to stop that from happening. You can try to intercept the pass, or you could stop the quaterback from throwing in the first place by using linebackers to sack the quaterback.

In this case, pokemon catcher would be the linebackers, trying to stop my strategy before it happens.

Taking a bat to an opponents legs while running x-country isn't even a close metaphore for catcher....
 
The thing about catcher is you can't stop it. The problem with that is the only cards that can stop it are vileplume and goth and not everyone plays them. The game is better off without catcher.
 
The thing about catcher is you can't stop it. The problem with that is the only cards that can stop it are vileplume and goth and not everyone plays them. The game is better off without catcher.

Who's to say the format is better without Catcher? For all you know the format might be worse with a bunch of bench sitters not having to worry about anything. Maybe Catcher is the only thing keeping some cards from NV from being completely broken. You can do all the Theorymon in the world, but there's nothing to say that a format without Catcher would be better than the current one.
 
The thing about the Pokemon TCG is that its different for every other card game. In Pokemon, there are no ways of stopping your opponent from playing or preventing plays during their turn. The way the game was made, a card like Pokemon Catcher should not have been made. It offers way too much control in a game with little control. Warp Point would have been a better option because it allows players to defend their setup the best way they can.

It's hard to say if its better with or without. All I'm seeing from catcher are decks running heavier lines which is not bad but it favors speed decks and decks that setup faster. Maybe we need cards in the format like Power Spray and Supporters that can be played on your opponents turn. Take a look at the best deck right now. To me, it's Reshiphlosion. Once the deck sets up, you lose. You have no options when dealing with 3 Typhlosions and 2 Reshirams. They kill everything you have in 1 hit. They even run Black Belt for those Goth and Trainer Lock decks.

Should we have a card that stops Powers, I think so. Reshi wont be as broken of a deck if it had it's powers in check. Sure we don't want cards like Mesprit because it offers too much control but cards that can help aid a game without making broken.

Cards that need to be banned;

Pokemon Reversal
Pokemon Catcher
Yanmega Prime
Professor Juniper
Junk Arm
Plus Power
Vileplume
Reshiram
Zekrom
Seeker

Thats my list right there. I feel these cards unbalance the game and you might know why. Pokemon Reversal is broken because the effect can be very onesided. No effect like that should be based on a coin flip. Coin flip effects should not be limited to game changing effects. Maybe something like healing or Pokemon search but not for switching a Pokemon. Pokemon Catcher was just a bad option, no need in explaining that one again. Yanmega Prime. People know how bad allowing Pokemon with free attacks can be. It's very onesided and ruins games. On top of that, it snipes and can retreat for free. it has a bad weakness but we don't need free attackers.

Professor J is a really powerful draw card. I say it should be banned for the same reasons Pot of Greed was banned in Yugioh. Its too easy to play and the after effects can be game changing. Drawing 7 cards is just Powerful. It sucks when you lose because of the after effects of the 7 cards drawn. You need a Pluspower to win the game, well, you just got it. That catcher and Junk Arm. It's just too powerful a draw card with the cards we have now.

I think Junk Arm was one of the cards that ruined the format. Players now are way too loose with their cards now. Well, I can discard my whole hand because I can get it back when I need it. Junk Arm can increase a cards count by 3 or 4. that 7 to 8 PlusPowers, Catchers and any other powerful staple in the deck. Without Junk Arm, players have to think about discarding or being loose with their resources. You might need to keep that Switch because you might and will need it later. It can also make other cards like Weavile more playable.



PlusPower should be banned because right now, 10 is the magic number. Everything is always 10 HP from knock out. Without PlusPower, people have to plan their plays more. You just can't Blue Flare or Bolt Strike with a PP for the KO. You now have to setup your KOs and attack when it's right for you, not because you can stack PlusPowers.

I feel Vileplume should be banned because Vileplume has no real check or counter in this format. All cards that would be printed would just target Abilities and thats not the same as a Power or Body. No Pokemon should have a ability that prevents the use of anything from the bench. It's way to powerful. An effect like that should always be in the active spot.

Reshiram and Zekrom. They were the wrong way to bring in the B/W set. Basic Pokemon with 130 HP that can hit for 120+ with both attacks is just bad for the game, like we are seeing now. Between 100 to 120 HP would have been better for them and attacks doing between 80 and 100 Damage. These dragon as they are now make a lot of thing unplayable or really hard to use. A lot of useful attackers now have 110 HP and they don't stand a chance against them.

As for cards we do need in the format;

Strength Charm
Steven's Advice
Power Spray
Goop Gas Attack
Here Come's Team Rocket
Warp point
Juggler
Memory Berry
Windstorm
Ancient Ruins
Relic Hunter
Apricorn Maker
Crystal Shard
TM Cards
PokeTools
Stadiums
Oracle
Star Piece

I can go on and on about cards that would be good for the game but this is it for now.
Cyclone Energy
Ancient Tomb
 
To restore skill, they should add a new type that has to do with Dragons.

Maybe they could call it "Dragon Type".
 
The thing about the Pokemon TCG is that its different for every other card game. In Pokemon, there are no ways of stopping your opponent from playing or preventing plays during their turn. The way the game was made, a card like Pokemon Catcher should not have been made. It offers way too much control in a game with little control. Warp Point would have been a better option because it allows players to defend their setup the best way they can.

It's hard to say if its better with or without. All I'm seeing from catcher are decks running heavier lines which is not bad but it favors speed decks and decks that setup faster. Maybe we need cards in the format like Power Spray and Supporters that can be played on your opponents turn. Take a look at the best deck right now. To me, it's Reshiphlosion. Once the deck sets up, you lose. You have no options when dealing with 3 Typhlosions and 2 Reshirams. They kill everything you have in 1 hit. They even run Black Belt for those Goth and Trainer Lock decks.

Should we have a card that stops Powers, I think so. Reshi wont be as broken of a deck if it had it's powers in check. Sure we don't want cards like Mesprit because it offers too much control but cards that can help aid a game without making broken.

Cards that need to be banned;

Pokemon Reversal
Pokemon Catcher
Yanmega Prime
Professor Juniper
Junk Arm
Plus Power
Vileplume
Reshiram
Zekrom
Seeker

Thats my list right there. I feel these cards unbalance the game and you might know why. Pokemon Reversal is broken because the effect can be very onesided. No effect like that should be based on a coin flip. Coin flip effects should not be limited to game changing effects. Maybe something like healing or Pokemon search but not for switching a Pokemon. Pokemon Catcher was just a bad option, no need in explaining that one again. Yanmega Prime. People know how bad allowing Pokemon with free attacks can be. It's very onesided and ruins games. On top of that, it snipes and can retreat for free. it has a bad weakness but we don't need free attackers.

Professor J is a really powerful draw card. I say it should be banned for the same reasons Pot of Greed was banned in Yugioh. Its too easy to play and the after effects can be game changing. Drawing 7 cards is just Powerful. It sucks when you lose because of the after effects of the 7 cards drawn. You need a Pluspower to win the game, well, you just got it. That catcher and Junk Arm. It's just too powerful a draw card with the cards we have now.

I think Junk Arm was one of the cards that ruined the format. Players now are way too loose with their cards now. Well, I can discard my whole hand because I can get it back when I need it. Junk Arm can increase a cards count by 3 or 4. that 7 to 8 PlusPowers, Catchers and any other powerful staple in the deck. Without Junk Arm, players have to think about discarding or being loose with their resources. You might need to keep that Switch because you might and will need it later. It can also make other cards like Weavile more playable.



PlusPower should be banned because right now, 10 is the magic number. Everything is always 10 HP from knock out. Without PlusPower, people have to plan their plays more. You just can't Blue Flare or Bolt Strike with a PP for the KO. You now have to setup your KOs and attack when it's right for you, not because you can stack PlusPowers.

I feel Vileplume should be banned because Vileplume has no real check or counter in this format. All cards that would be printed would just target Abilities and thats not the same as a Power or Body. No Pokemon should have a ability that prevents the use of anything from the bench. It's way to powerful. An effect like that should always be in the active spot.

Reshiram and Zekrom. They were the wrong way to bring in the B/W set. Basic Pokemon with 130 HP that can hit for 120+ with both attacks is just bad for the game, like we are seeing now. Between 100 to 120 HP would have been better for them and attacks doing between 80 and 100 Damage. These dragon as they are now make a lot of thing unplayable or really hard to use. A lot of useful attackers now have 110 HP and they don't stand a chance against them.

As for cards we do need in the format;

Strength Charm
Steven's Advice
Power Spray
Goop Gas Attack
Here Come's Team Rocket
Warp point
Juggler
Memory Berry
Windstorm
Ancient Ruins
Relic Hunter
Apricorn Maker
Crystal Shard
TM Cards
PokeTools
Stadiums
Oracle
Star Piece

I can go on and on about cards that would be good for the game but this is it for now.
Cyclone Energy
Ancient Tomb


Basically all I see here, is you complaining about all the cards you lose to. The only unbalanced part of Pokemon is the first turn rules. All the cards that you said 'need to be banned' can be, and are, played around every day.

I also find it funny that you want Juniper banned, but then want Stevens advice back. Same with Plus Power gone, but want Strength Charm back. Strength Charm still gives that 'Magic Ten' that allows Reshiram to OHKO anything with 130 Hp.

Junk Arm is far from broken. You have to discard two cards. It has a cost. It's very balanced.

Yanmega is good. I'll agree, but it's far from broken. Sure, it can attack for free, but it doesnt do THAT much damage for free, and it's not always possible to the same hand size. It even limits itself on how many cards it can play a turn if it doesn't have Copycat/Judge. Also, IIRC, no one was complaining about G-Dos being good. Matter-of-fact, I'm pretty sure people were saying it sucked. Yet it did 90 for free. Hmmm.

Seeker would actually be better if it didnt pick up your opponent bench IMO. Alot of the time it allows your opponent to pick up that Pachi/Shaymin/Blissey Prime/ damaged pokemon.

Also, WHY in Gods' name would you WANT power spray back? That was the most frustrating card I've ever played against. Power Spraying an Uxie would win you the game, you know how much it sucked t get an Uxie power sprayed, then have nothing for 3-4 turns.

Lastly, I don't really understand all the Catcher hate. It disrupts your opponent. So? It's good, sure maybe even 'broken' but it's not really that big of deal. Both sides can use it, and it still takes some skill to play. You have to pull up the right card in the first place. I can't tell you how many times someone's catcher'd up the wrong pokemon, not hurting me at all. I feel like the worst thing Pokemon could do is start banning cards. If you don't like what's being printed, and think things are 'OMGZ TO POWERFULL!!!!1!!!' stop playing. You play to win the game, and you play the cards that win you games. Enough said. I'm tired of seeing everyone complaining about so many things. If you don't like it THAT much, why are you even here in the first place?
 
AJ, you seem to enjoy sports metaphores, so here is one for you.

When playing football, my strategy is for my quaterback to make a pass. Part of your strategy would be to stop that from happening. You can try to intercept the pass, or you could stop the quaterback from throwing in the first place by using linebackers to sack the quaterback.

In this case, pokemon catcher would be the linebackers, trying to stop my strategy before it happens.

Taking a bat to an opponents legs while running x-country isn't even a close metaphore for catcher....

Yes, I do like sports analogies. However, the football example you use is different.

My actual goal is preventing you from scoring more touch downs than my team (my getting more prize cards than you do before time is called).

You have a number of options you can play to do that (and I am FAR from a football fan, basketball is my sport): there are playbooks that I understand are dozens, if not hundreds of pages long. There are a number of players on the field at a given time (isn't it something like 20 players for each side?) Each team has the exact same number of positions. The other team doesn't get to pull the guys protecting the QB, right?

Moreover, your team has four chances to make a first down. YOU don't get to do anything but defend during my time of possession.

If you tackle my line backer in one play, I can run a different play, I can pump fake, I can even run the ball myself to gain yards! I can reset my offense and team at the end of each down with all the players on my team still active. I have a wealth of options that I can use to still seek to achieve my goal of scoring more touch downs than your team does within the alloted time.

To extend your analogy; I see Catcher as being like the coach of the opposing team deciding your team is only able to play a line backer, one of the cheerleaders and the water boy while permitting 2 out of the regular 4 attempts at a first down.

But that's just me and I see that I am in the minority in regards to Catcher.

However, I still vigourously protest the card and say it is one of the things that needs to be addressed to restore skill back to the game (but not the only thing).

---------- Post added 10/25/2011 at 10:49 PM ----------

AJ, I wish to address a specific sub-point before we delve back into the main part of your discussion, though I do thank you for engaging in polite debate and will do my utmost to remain civil... which is really what we are supposed to do on a forum such as this anyway, and yet so many of us fail at it so often. :rolleyes:

Oh, and again, I'll address more of AJ's specific points in a later post. Oh, and can I call you AJ, ajwalker?

No problem Otaku. And I do see your point about coin flips, something along the lines of "If even, this. If odd, that" would be an interesting dynamic.

Darkrai LvX had a similar effect with "Flip 2 coins, if 2 heads you are awake, if 1 heads, 1 tails, you are still asleep, if 2 tails, you are knocked out." Is that in the realm of what you were thinking?

I thought that was pretty cool and ran my Darkrai LvX deck for a long while and loved it. KO's with this was maybe 50-50 of games played? Of course, they seemed to always hit 2 heads, switch into a Machamp and KO me at crucial moments, :lol: My own son abused the Machamp LvX deck I helped him build like nobody's business.

At any rate, I think something like you described with rolling the dice with different effects based on what is rolled would bring a very interesting dynamic to the game. Sadly, Darkrai LvX is the only card I can think of off the top of my head that had something like I think you are talking about.
 
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