Canadian National Championship 2013

[JoshWild]

Respect the game and ALL its players

Watched the posted video - must say:

All who consider Curtis a cheater, are simply upset not at the fact that Curtis cheated, but rather that the outcome of the game was not as you would have liked it.

The judge clearly states: "We believe ithe decks were shuffeled enough" ..... Thats it ladies and gentleman, there is no other outcome and never will be.

You cant sit here and tell me or anyone else that Curtis cheated. I watched the entire video, and unless curtis had x-ray contacts on, there is no way he could have cheated.

Please practice harder and win on your own accord, not by down playing the mastery of others. It makes the game more childish than it needs to be.

Respect the game and ALL of its players.

Cheers,
The Wild Man

 

[NoPoke]

does this thread need a "Beware of the Trolls" warning?:lol:

 

[ShuckleLVX]

Watched the posted video - must say:

All who consider Curtis a cheater, are simply upset not at the fact that Curtis cheated, but rather that the outcome of the game was not as you would have liked it.

The judge clearly states: "We believe ithe decks were shuffeled enough" ..... Thats it ladies and gentleman, there is no other outcome and never will be.

You cant sit here and tell me or anyone else that Curtis cheated. I watched the entire video, and unless curtis had x-ray contacts on, there is no way he could have cheated.

Please practice harder and win on your own accord, not by down playing the mastery of others. It makes the game more childish than it needs to be.

Respect the game and ALL of its players.

Cheers,
The Wild Man

That deck was not sufficiently randomized, the Judge was wrong. We saw the 'shuffle' on the video. Even if you don't understand the mechanics behind the stacking going on doesn't mean it didn't happen. I am 150% apathetic about the outcome of this match - I'm not from the country, don't know the players, and could care less who wins. What I do care about is A. pretty blatant stacking of a deck and B. people slamming other people for being concerned about blatant stacking of a deck, as you're trying to do. The double nickel is clear as day, 'you cant sit here and tell me or anyone else that [it isn't]'.

I don't know the Judges or all the circumstances behind the call, and am not going to get into slamming them the way many of you are. I have a ton of respect for anyone willing to give up their time to help run this game, and would gladly work alongside any one of them in the future. Mistakes get made, and this is one of them, but just because a mistake was made doesn't absolve the player from a clear issue. If a player draws his 7th card for a Juniper from the discard pile, the Judge doesn't see that because he's talking to the event organizer, and he okay's the players 7 card hand, does that mean the player didn't cheat? Because that's what you're saying here.

What I can tell you is that shuffling like this will not fly at US Nationals, especially for any games I am watching. And I'll be watching many.

Sorry if this seems soapboxy, but Wild Man's post is... upsetting, at best, and isn't the only one.

 

[Parm]

So,

Have there been penalties handed down or not? I was told yesterday by an event organizer that there were 3 people to have their worlds invited revoked, and a 1 year ban?

True/untrue?

 

[ShuckleLVX]

So,

Have there been penalties handed down or not? I was told yesterday by an event organizer that there were 3 people to have their worlds invited revoked, and a 1 year ban?

True/untrue?

If anything happens, the public almost certainly won't be told directly, and those organizers that have the information are expected to keep it confidential. Unless the players in question bring it forward, we won't know.

 

[Glumanda]

What we see here is a perfectly executed "mana weave". This will be a good training video for my judges.

 

[cortico]

Seriously take a step back and relax. They (intentionally or not) cheated at a children's card game. They didn't murder your child.

He called Curtis a cheater. You then confirm that Curtis cheated in the same sentence you tell Pablo to calm down... So what's the problem with Pablo's original statement other than an assumed sense of hostility from Pablo on your end?

I find it odd that you downplay this cheating incident along with the yes-men constantly thanking you and the other defenders. It's great that you're all probably friends defending one another, but Curtis' cheating (intentional or not) cost other people points that seem to matter for a lot of us. People spend money and time to come to this tournament for the purpose of 1) having fun and 2) getting CP. Winning dishonestly has denied his opponents both. For a forum where said tournament and the card game is central to the discussion, I think we all have every right to be angry, since cheating is probably the highest offense.

 

[Throne0fLegends]

Sebastian, you can say whatever you want, whether that be another incident (which just adds another tally to your record) or you can admit that in top 32 when you were playing with Japanese cards (with translations I don't deny that), you had cessation crystals that were Japanese and as we were getting deck checked you were called to replace those said crystals because they were see through. Honestly, I never brought it up, and I never put anything against you. It was my first major tournament and it never once crossed my mind that your intentions were to cheat. Whether it was or not, I let the judges decide -- that's what they're there for right? To determine whether or not you had the intentions to cheat with your cards or if it was just an honest mistake? I believe by giving you a game loss and having you switch them to energies it was their belief that it was an honest mistake and you had no intentions of cheating. I never brought it up again. We faced many times after that and it was always a fair and enjoyable game with no hard feelings.

You state that I went directly at Pablo. Frankly, I'm just wondering where all his hatred is coming from. I questioned his ban, I never put anything in his mouth he didn't outright say, and I simply put that if he experienced something with POP and the wait to see what they were going to do, then he should understand the feelings of how our Canadian players are going through right now. No matter what the outcome is, his direct attacks aren't necessary and do not contribute in any way to the discussion. Say what you will, but that's where I stand.

The game goes both ways. The players need to respect the judges, and the judges the players. You can't consistently ridicule the judges and expect them to just take it. They're volunteers at the end of the day and do what they do for the game and for the players. If you can't understand that simple concept, then there's no use trying to convince you. Whether or not Curtis is my friend or not is irrelevant, because I would say something regardless to these senseless comments on people's characters, especially if you've never met them before.

 

[Pikabruce]

Regarding the controversial shuffling at Canadian Nationals, there is a very good half-hour discussion in The Top Cut - Episode 55 Part 1, starting 8 minutes in: http://thetopcut.net/2013/06/28/the-top-cut-episode-55/

 

[Proxied]

Regarding the controversial shuffling at Canadian Nationals, there is a very good half-hour discussion in The Top Cut - Episode 55 Part 1, starting 8 minutes in: http://thetopcut.net/2013/06/28/the-top-cut-episode-55/

I'm not to sure you can get anymore depth than that and they gave us an answer to these actions made by these players, it's as light as day, it's cheating.

 

[cortico]

Regarding the controversial shuffling at Canadian Nationals, there is a very good half-hour discussion in The Top Cut - Episode 55 Part 1, starting 8 minutes in: http://thetopcut.net/2013/06/28/the-top-cut-episode-55/

I'm glad they didn't shy away from this, and called it out for what it was.

They ended on the note that while this whole thing has been an ugly stain on the tournament, at least the info is out now and people are just more educated on how cheats can take advantage of them in a game.

In the end it's great that games are getting streamed nowadays and there is going to be less and less room for dishonest players to prosper.

@Throneoflegends: You keep railing about people attacking the characters of others, yet you keep doing the same. What gives? You say they're off topic, but you've stayed away from the topic in every post you've made in this thread. So how about it, what do you think about actual actions of these players now that the videos are out? Cheats or not? Punishable or not?

 

[JandPDS]

People need to stop saying Pablo cheated. Unless my memory is completely failing me, his ban had nothing to due with anything of that sort of infraction. What he did wrong he paid for by loosing his spot in worlds that year. It is useless to harp on it and has nothing to do at all with the issue at hand of a player seeming to be caught on video stacking his deck to steal a title that he did not deserve to win.

 

[SebastianS]

Its been heavily debated on many forums and the majority of people agree that yes they were cheating. Intent or not, willingly or not(well never be able to prove that, but if youre re-arranging your deck, you know what youre doing)

This being a nationals, higher in the cut, these players should be punished to the max to deter future stacking/declumping/ whatever you want to call it.

Ideally we could redo-nationals or even top32(the day the "stacking" was noticed) but I doubt that will happen since we would need a venue etc.

I dont even think it to be statistically possible to run how they did with blastoise, and i ran rayboar which is statistically slightly better or equal to than blastoise.

 

[Mystery Thing]

This is purely my personal opinion, but whether or not anybody gets any kind of suspension out of this, I would be VERY surprised if anything is done in regards to standings/assignment of CPs. IMO, mostly likely the "invites" would just vanish.

 

[PokePop]

People need to stop saying Pablo cheated. Unless my memory is completely failing me, his ban had nothing to due with anything of that sort of infraction. What he did wrong he paid for by loosing his spot in worlds that year. It is useless to harp on it and h noting to do at all with the issue at hand of a player seeming to be caught on video stacking his deck to steal a title that he did not deserve to win.

I believe it was for collusion, wasn't it.
Not sure, but I think that does fall under the umbrella of cheating.

 

[FirestormXVI]

I think that this community has every right to be upset about this. If you watch the video you can clearly hear Zach giving the judges attitude and I've been to many tournaments where he was in attendace and I know first-hand the rude attitude that comes from him sometimes. Is this ok? Of course nothing about this has been mentioned before now. If Pablo admitted to his cheating I think he shouldn't be harped on for his mistakes in the past. What I don't appreciate is the poor attitude displayed in the video when questionable shuffling methods were used. We're talking about unsportsman-like conduct on all fronts here.

As a player of the game for 5 years and a collector of the cards since the game started, I think I have eery right to be upset when our "top" players are cheating and they are the ones representing my country. I play this game for fun...the second it becomes about cheating one's way to the top and they're allowed to get away with it, I no longer want anything to do with it...

I totally agree that players have a right to be upset. I am just saying that Pablo's posts here and on HeyFonte have been overly aggressive and spiteful and it seems to step from taking a previous thread a little too seriously -- especially judging by the wording of his post. I am not saying anything about his previous ban. It seems Pablo had no malicious intent there and it was a fairly honest mistake. I don't have enough information to judge.

I cannot comment on either player's attitudes. I don't know them. I can only go off second hand information and the video. The one who did most of the talking in the video was Curtis and I did not notice any sort of attitude displayed.

What I'm saying is a punishment should be issued, but context matters when it comes to the severity of the action. Someone with no history of cheating, displays all aspects of the Spirit of the Game for years, and could have done it unintentionally shouldn't get the same punishment as Newman for example. Again, I can't speak for the character of either of these players. I don't know them. I don't talk to them. If they are shady people that pull this all the time, then yeah be severe. That isn't the impression I've received for at least one of them though.

He called Curtis a cheater. You then confirm that Curtis cheated in the same sentence you tell Pablo to calm down... So what's the problem with Pablo's original statement other than an assumed sense of hostility from Pablo on your end?

I find it odd that you downplay this cheating incident along with the yes-men constantly thanking you and the other defenders. It's great that you're all probably friends defending one another, but Curtis' cheating (intentional or not) cost other people points that seem to matter for a lot of us. People spend money and time to come to this tournament for the purpose of 1) having fun and 2) getting CP. Winning dishonestly has denied his opponents both. For a forum where said tournament and the card game is central to the discussion, I think we all have every right to be angry, since cheating is probably the highest offense.

Read what I replied to Dan with. There is no perceived hostility. Pablo has definitely been hostile during this entire situation on HeyFonte and probably here (haven't read the PokeGym threads very closely). He's holding a grudge which is making it hard to take him seriously.

 

[SebastianS]

I totally agree that players have a right to be upset. I am just saying that Pablo's posts here and on HeyFonte have been overly aggressive and spiteful and it seems to step from taking a previous thread a little too seriously -- especially judging by the wording of his post. I am not saying anything about his previous ban. It seems Pablo had no malicious intent there and it was a fairly honest mistake. I don't have enough information to judge.

I cannot comment on either player's attitudes. I don't know them. I can only go off second hand information and the video. The one who did most of the talking in the video was Curtis and I did not notice any sort of attitude displayed.

What I'm saying is a punishment should be issued, but context matters when it comes to the severity of the action. Someone with no history of cheating, displays all aspects of the Spirit of the Game for years, and could have done it unintentionally shouldn't get the same punishment as Newman for example. Again, I can't speak for the character of either of these players. I don't know them. I don't talk to them. If they are shady people that pull this all the time, then yeah be severe. That isn't the impression I've received for at least one of them though.Read what I replied to Dan with. There is no perceived hostility. Pablo has definitely been hostile during this entire situation on HeyFonte and probably here (haven't read the PokeGym threads very closely). He's holding a grudge which is making it hard to take him seriously.

People that stack know what theyre doing. People that declump, know what they are doing.
And he couldve been stacking for many years and winning games like that and its finally been noticed.
Full punishment is necessary to set an example.

 

[Pikabruce]

People that stack know what they're doing. People that declump, know what they are doing.
And he couldve been stacking for many years and winning games like that and its finally been noticed.
Full punishment is necessary to set an example.

As was stated a few days ago by the panelists on The Top Cut:

...I don't really think you can do this kind of thing and not know what you're doing...Any type of "accident" or "naivete", I don't think really should hold for this. If you ask anyone "Why did you do that?" They'd be like "Well, so I draw better." What? Do you know what you just admitted to doing? You would get kicked out of any other card game tournament if you admitted to that...

Just because you don't know it's cheating doesn't mean it's not cheating when you do it. It's still cheating, no matter what...

Something needs to be done about this immediately. Something needs to change and TPCi can't take this lightly. The head judging staff at Pokemon U.S. Nationals can't take it lightly. It needs to be a number one priority because we need to nip it in the bud immediately.

 

[Throne0fLegends]

I believe it was for collusion, wasn't it.
Not sure, but I think that does fall under the umbrella of cheating.

Thanks for the post. Like I said, I don't disagree that Pablo was genuinely apologetic of his actions and actions, but what made me bring up this "7 year" incident is the fact that right now the same thing is happening to someone right now and the only thing he can do is throw personal attacks at them. Whether or not it's taking another thread too personally (by the way his comments are it sure looks like it), there is no need for him to act like this.

Do I feel that what happened at Canadian Nats is wrong? Sure, now that I looked at the videos and heard both sides. However prior to this situation if somebody did that to me at a tournament would I have done anything? No, because I wouldn't know it to be wrong. I've been playing with both Curtis and Zach for a long time now, and I can confidently speak for Curtis (since I playtest and chill with him a lot more than I do Zach) that if either myself or he would know that this shuffling habit was prohibited, we would let the other know immediately and stop it from ever happening in our tournaments.

*Whether or not the Canadian pokemon community wants to step up and agree or disagree on this next paragraph is completely up to them, but I'll stand by it 100%*

In the last few years, the Canadian Pokemon community in Ontario has gone through a lot of changes, which has positively increased our attendance (at least in the Masters Division). These changes were made possible due to the Canadian judges who day in and day out dedicated a part of their life in making tournaments run smoother, increasing the tournaments around Ontario, and sacrificing their time to make new players welcome at league and at tournaments. Not only were the judges involved, but the players started pitching in too. I started helping seniors and juniors become more competitive in the scene by taking time to teach them basic strategies, how to trade properly so they don't get ripped off, and most importantly sportsmanship in the game. On the other side of town, Curtis has been doing the same thing for the community there. Reed M has begun judging this year at tournaments to help the staff out, while helping new players establish a foundation in the game out in Toronto. Zach and Dakota out in Barrie have been bringing more players from that area to more central Ontario for tournaments providing rides and cards for them. Zach has come a long way in maturing and growing up since his last suspension, because he realized that our community was in trouble. Whether these players wanted to or not, they became a role model for juniors, seniors and even masters in how they play and especially how they handle themselves at tournaments. No matter how POP rules, these players will forever be thanked for their contribution to the game and to the player base here because when they realized their game was in trouble, they did everything they could to keep it alive. They would never destroy everything that we have worked so hard for by intentionally cheating. If they knew this was cheating, then I'm the first to admit that it's as much as their fault as it is mine because I did nothing to stop them. Maybe some of you who blindly let them do this should reflect on that too.. or maybe you thought the same as them that there was nothing wrong with it? That's all I'm writing on this as it has been beaten to death already.


PS, Sebastian you openly admit that you have come to a tournament a year and that you are no longer connected to the community, yet you have known for a long time that these players stack and cheat... If that wasn't bad enough, you start trolling about Blastoise and Rayboar matchups....you must have something better to do? Please tell me you do...

 

[Jaeger]

I believe it was for collusion, wasn't it.
Not sure, but I think that does fall under the umbrella of cheating.

If I remember right it was splitting...Pablo couldn't attend Nationals and wanted prizes while letting the kid have the Travel Award...While what Pablo did was wrong cheating in game is 100X worse IMO (not condoning either, but Pablo paid a heavy price for his issue)