US Nationals live updates?

[ajhawk]

You mean the community of people who were unwilling or unable to attend Nationals.

Because the community of people who DID attend Nationals, the main thing they wanted was online pairings and 75 minute top cut rounds.

Yes, I mean the community of people who did not attend nationals. Guess what more USA players did not attend than did attend. Not to mention the foreign players who very much like to keep stock of the USA metagame because it will directly affect worlds more than any other country.

Heck, even the people at the event bemoaned the fact there was no stream.

Technically no, but legally perhaps yes. We just don't know. What I do know is I sign more paperwork for Steven Reich's PokePress radio interviews than anyone I've ever seen for broadcasting their match on The Top Cut. So it makes sense that the community of streamers is being more cavalier than the company can, or is at least willing to do this year. Structuring Sunday to run as it did was hard enough, I can imagine, without having to worry about satisfying the folks at home.

This is more of them being overly cautious than anything else. A simple consent-release form is all that is needed for the masters division. They really are not that hard to come up with. The "we just don't know" line is a cop out. It's not that hard. All most all masters would be just fine signing on the dotted line to be on the stream. They streamed world's finals, they can make it happen. They just chose not to.

As an active participant who regularly tries to bring logic to the mob mentality, the HeyFonte posts and comments are barely conducive to good "discussions". PokeGym has a purpose: to be a well-moderated forum that is safe for families and kids to participate. HeyFonte and the other sites serves a different demographic. No one site has to "win" by being all things to all people.

And you think the 'Gym's threads are much better? They are not. I get that the 'Gym is the family-friendly option. But the real reasons why people are leaving in droves to discuss things in more depth elsewhere are 1) logic is often not tolerated in these threads and 2) the forum rules/enforcement are way more overbearing than they need to be to provide a family friendly environment.

I mean I apparently can't even type out the name of a site that starts with hey and ends with trainer without it getting censored.

Answers in bold.

As for the improvements, by all accounts they were great. I applaud the company for making those things happen.

 

[losjackal]

They streamed world's finals, they can make it happen. They just chose not to.

I agree with that 100%, as well as your earlier sentiment of "it's a shame".

My initial reply was to Swordfish who was taking TPCi to the woodshed for it. There are reasons things happen the way they do, and since we aren't told why, I find it more constructive to figure out the issues and help make progress rather than just complain. That's the nature of my posts. And I very much try to bring logic to the table. For instance:

Guess what more USA players did not attend than did attend.

Fine, someone in charge would have to estimate that only a subset of those would be looking for a live stream. How many makes it worth it to add on the cost and resources to make it happen? As you pointed out, they did it for Worlds, and I posted a potential reason for it: because there is more outside (international) interest and by definition fewer players can attend in the first place. That doesn't automatically mean they're inclined to do it for Nationals.

In the end, we just don't know why they chose not to. But it was probably for logical reasons.

 

[ShadowCard]

losjackal, I find the comparison to MtG a valid one when not in a way used to belittle TPCi's efforts but instead to show that TPCi doesn't need to reinvent the wheel and it is not a overambitious to attempt new ideas.

PokeGym has a purpose: to be a well-moderated forum that is safe for families and kids to participate.

This lead purpose was always the problem. PokeGym has never been a "well-moderated" forum. It was always a well-policed forum. Power-tripping moderators, no active attempt to cut back on a "if you don't like it, you don't have to be here" mentality. Players came here because the infrastructure was here. losjackal, you said that you "find it more constructive to figure out the issues and help make progress rather than just complain." Such a logic-taking position was always unwelcomed here when it hinted that TPCi could do better, even when presented in a constructive way. "TPCi can do no wrong" was the marching beat.

After years of hearing "you don't have to stay...," people are finally going elsewhere. PokeGym is very lucky to have the infrastructure of the Labs to enable online pairings and supplement its waning purpose. Even the Compendium, a shining jewel in the crown that was PokeGym, is in need of a polish :nonono:

 

[ninetales1234]

Where, if anywhere, can live updates (results, metagame and players thoughts) from US Nationals be seen? Someone's twitter, a pokegym thread or something else.

This is one of those moments where I like to say that having a facebook account is a great way to keep abreast of anything about everything. TheTopCut is really good and has the extra benefit of comedy.

losjackal, I find the comparison to MtG a valid one when not in a way used to belittle TPCi's efforts but instead to show that TPCi doesn't need to reinvent the wheel and it is not a overambitious to attempt new ideas.

:thumb:

PokeGym has a purpose: to be a well-moderated forum that is safe for families and kids to participate.

This lead purpose was always the problem. PokeGym has never been a "well-moderated" forum. It was always a well-policed forum. Power-tripping moderators, no active attempt to cut back on a "if you don't like it, you don't have to be here" mentality. Players came here because the infrastructure was here. losjackal, you said that you "find it more constructive to figure out the issues and help make progress rather than just complain." Such a logic-taking position was always unwelcomed here when it hinted that TPCi could do better, even when presented in a constructive way. "TPCi can do no wrong" was the marching beat.

After years of hearing "you don't have to stay...," people are finally going elsewhere. PokeGym is very lucky to have the infrastructure of the Labs to enable online pairings and supplement its waning purpose. Even the Compendium, a shining jewel in the crown that was PokeGym, is in need of a polish :nonono:

Good to hear you stickin' to your guns. "Waning purpose" man, that's not sugar-coatin' it!

If people can acknowledge that PokeGym users have been subjected to: refusal to answer questions, strawman tactics, epithets, and other modes of sophistry and symptoms of emotional unhealthiness- at the hands of PTOs, PokeGym Moderators, and TPCi employees, because they disagree with them- then it might be apparent that PokeGym is not the optimal environment for kids.

Hate to be pessimist, but just because the Mods don't use the Seven Dirty Words, doesn't mean the bigwigs aren't providing a bad environment by showing kids unhealthy ways of dealing with people who disagree with them.

 

[losjackal]

It's still the safest forum for kids because the other choices aren't policed at all. If someone wants to continue a discussion about moderation, please start a new thread. Otherwise let's continue this thread regarding Nationals live updates.

I'll continue with the comparisons that were made to Magic:

1. Streaming: just a random match from Swiss? Or a featured match in Top 32? Or is the main streaming desire just about the Finals?
2. Deck lists: not possible, too confidential during the tournament

Personally, I really like the pairings and standings being published during Worlds. I don't understand why that wouldn't be possible to adopt for Nationals.

 

[Swordfish1989]

Deck lists: not possible, too confidential during the tournament

Right, it's so confidential that an event/entire tournament system that pays 5x as much as Pokemon (if not more), and has a much bigger following actually posts it DURING a tournament. And MTG is even more secretive because your techs aren't just hidden inside your deck - they're in your sideboard. I don't see MTG players complaining about Top 8 decklists being published...

At that stage, you probably already know all techs your opponent is playing anyway. I reaaaallly don't understand why we can't see top decklists of people playing in major events. I think it would really benefit beginning players. I know when I started Magic, I found a theme I liked, and found a top 8 decklist of that deck and built it. I was a newbie, but I had a competitive deck to learn to play with. You don't really have that in Pokemon... WC decks don't count as they are last season's decks.

 

[Pikajew1213]

Right, it's so confidential that an event/entire tournament system that pays 5x as much as Pokemon (if not more), and has a much bigger following actually posts it DURING a tournament. And MTG is even more secretive because your techs aren't just hidden inside your deck - they're in your sideboard. I don't see MTG players complaining about Top 8 decklists being published...

At that stage, you probably already know all techs your opponent is playing anyway. I reaaaallly don't understand why we can't see top decklists of people playing in major events. I think it would really benefit beginning players. I know when I started Magic, I found a theme I liked, and found a top 8 decklist of that deck and built it. I was a newbie, but I had a competitive deck to learn to play with. You don't really have that in Pokemon... WC decks don't count as they are last season's decks.

There is no guarantee that in a tournament THAT BIG that you know your opponents techs. The player worked hard on that list, it should be at their discretion to reveal it or not to. Just because you want to see what they're playing in THEIR list differently than yours DOES NOT mean they have to or even SHOULD be required to put up deck lists.

 

[raxl]

I haven't started playing Magic seriously yet, but from what I can tell as a relative newcomer, some of the things they do there would be amazing for Pokemon, and others wouldn't be a great fit. Streamed or even time-delayed matches with commentary? Awesome. Super helpful (and I love the ones we do have from groups like TTC already). Decklists? In Magic, your opponent knows your sideboard in a top cut match, but you also know theirs, and there's a set of decisions to make about "is she going to sideboard in X, or will she avoid it because I can sideboard in Y to counter it, and if so maybe I can avoid putting in Y and still not have to see X..." that are interesting and complex. Pokemon doesn't have that; you just know what is in your opponent's deck, every match, if you have their decklist. In addition, in Pokemon, counts of cards are very important. How many catcher you run is crucial because you play through much of your deck every game and have many more search cards than in Magic (Skyla or computer search for catcher, many more for pokemon). There are some Magic decks that play through a good percentage of the deck and have some amount of search, from what I can tell usually control decks --- but the counts aren't as crucial (I think) because you don't see the entire deck every game the way you do in Pokemon. You also don't know your opponent's counts after game 1, even with their decklist in hand, because you don't know what they sideboarded in and out.

It's possible Pokemon would do fine after an adjustment period if the cultural norm of "winning/top cut decklists get released" was imposed, but I would be against it, personally.

 

[losjackal]

I reaaaallly don't understand why we can't see top decklists of people playing in major events.

Start a new thread and let's talk about it! Sounds like an interesting topic.

 

[Swordfish1989]

There is no guarantee that in a tournament THAT BIG that you know your opponents techs. The player worked hard on that list, it should be at their discretion to reveal it or not to. Just because you want to see what they're playing in THEIR list differently than yours DOES NOT mean they have to or even SHOULD be required to put up deck lists.

Well in that case how about we ban all players from watching other matches to learn what people are playing? Or how about wiping people's memories after a match so they don't remember what an opponent played? After all, a particularly smart person would have no trouble memorizing counts of each card a person played, right? Or even taking notes? Seriously, if I wanted to I could just watch the top matches streaming (if there was any) and note down all cards the person played to come up with an accurate idea of their decklist.

Or how about we make it an equal playing field for the people who didn't attend Nats and actually publish decklists? They're going to change every time a new set comes out anyway, are they not? Or do the good players just play the EXACT same cards every time they sit down for a tournament?

Here's another crazy idea - how about the health of the game? Ever think that a newbie trying to figure out what's good will have a much easier time learning the ins and outs of this game if he knew what the top people were playing? When I got into Magic that's the FIRST thing I did - read the top decklists and understand the strategies, why people played those cards, why those quantities, etc. I've become a much better player since I started doing that, and it really gave me a boost. The fact that I didn't have to dig through the mud to find a workable decklist definetely made me happier with the game and a better player.

But no, let's keep that information private because... because why again? Because someone wants to protect a decklist that even if they go to worlds they're bound to change cards around anyway?

 

[losjackal]

Right now, players have many forums and Web sites to reveal their own decklist if they wish to. Some even receive compensation for writing articles. So the information is available if a new player wants to seek it out.

For new players that don't know where to look on third-party sites, TPC publishes their own information. Here is a decklist they published from a notable player:

http://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-news/op_states_2013_tcg_strategy_1-2013-04-02/

An interview with a player preparing for Nationals:

http://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-news/op_nats13_roadtonationals2-2013-06-14/

A preview of featured cards from an upcoming set:

http://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-trading-card-game/bw_series/bw10/featured/


Swordfish, the reasons you state are valid in general, but they don't address why players decklists should be revealed DURING the tournament, which was your original premise.

 

[Vegeta ss4]

Here's the facts!


The Pokegym is dying, it is made fun of everyday. The moderation by many is a complete joke, it needs a revamp. I also think personell voted moderators are in need. There are certain mods who annoy me with the mentality that TPCi are the greatest thing since landing on the moon, that they have no negatives, they do everything right. The point is, they are blind. Not only in my eyes is the gym dying, the trading card game is dying. I will eleaborate in a moment, but the reason I stay active on the gym is because it was where I started. This is how I learned about decks, discussion, and fun events. The gym has lost site of the fun it can have for players.

Onto the trading card game dying. This game, specifically for sanctioned events are turning into a joke. Anyone can see where this game is heading, online gameplay. Ill be brief with a few things here.

1) TPCi proves this a kids game(as it is). They simply flaunt this, too much. The masters is where the game is at, flaunt it, for a bit. Be proud and help the masters out as well..

2) Allow stream for all tournaments, no matter the tournament level. This allows for insight look for players to get better at this game, it also promotes the game. Stop with the legality, most masters will be proud to be streamed. It gives the game a whole pro feeling, which is amazing.

3) Listen to the community, the things TPCi did at nationals was pretty cool, its still not want we want. If I want a Snicker bar and you get me 3 bags of skittles, its cool, but not what I wanted.

4) This is something that most will not agree with me on;
Allow the masters to have a entry fee for better prizes. $5 is cheap and all masters can afford it. If you can't afford $5, then you can't afford to play this game with few cards costing $100+.

5) Get rid of the scholarships for masters...its meaningless, completely. I like the idea for juniors and seniors but for masters its just funny. Give us cash, afterall...we spend countless dollars on your company, the least you can do is offer a better prize at big premiere events. Seriously, I'm sure no one agrees with me.


I can go on all day, but it is just so annoying watching players dropping this game because of the way the game is being ran. I love Pokemon, for the love of whatever you believe in, fix this game.

PS-I'm sure a mod/admin will reply to this as they should, then another mod(not saying the name) will say thanks to his post, regardless of it being a worthy post or not.

 

[ShadowCard]

5) Get rid of the scholarships for masters...its meaningless, completely. I like the idea for juniors and seniors but for masters its just funny. Give us cash, afterall...we spend countless dollars on your company, the least you can do is offer a better prize at big premiere events. Seriously, I'm sure no one agrees with me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think scholarships are in a different and more preferable tax category than cash winnings. If that is the case, scholarships > cash. Not to mention that most of the people who do win are at an age where scholarships are beneficial and they will get more out of them if taxed less.

 

[Vegeta ss4]

I don't know if taxes are deducted on the scholarship, I would assume there are no taxes. Lets be real here, how much are those scholarships worth? A couple classes? That is the basis of a small scholarship. At the end of the day, people will spend thousands more on schooling that the scholarship can't even put a dent in. Atleast with cash(even taxed) is worth a lot more. Also, I don't care what TPCi says, these scholarships are NOT accepted with all schools. Some tech schools don't even allow scholarships, they are Grant schools only.

Cash is just...better. The ability to spend money on this game, dedicate your time to this game, and promote the game warrants for something better. Im sure people sell the scholarships(which is illegal).


It is also worth noting, military personell have NO USE in this scholarship, we go to school, for free AND get paid to do so. Do away with the scholarship.

If cash is illegal, make it so players win Pokemon certificates. These certificates can be used for TPCi approved pokemon venues, to buy cards and other merchandise. Atleast then we get money out if it AND the game doesnt lose profit, but simply make money on someone "winning" a premier event.

Just my thoughts...

 

[losjackal]

PS-I'm sure a mod/admin will reply to this as they should, then another mod(not saying the name) will say thanks to his post, regardless of it being a worthy post or not.

Is this me? Sorry I can't help that people like what I have to say. I had a few people at Nationals tell me so in person (players and parents).

I actually didn't have much to reply to, you said your mind pretty well! #2, #4, and #5 do have legal issues attached which don't make them slam dunks. Besides the streaming desire being talked about in this thread, what's on your mind re: #3? And I do think #1 can only be a positive thing for the game.

(I can't speak for others, but when I try to explain something TPCi did, it's not necessarily because I agree with their decision, but I do respect it as a decision. It's reality. Someone made a choice for some reason, and I try to make sense of it.)

 

[Vegeta ss4]

Don't worry, I was not talking about you, everyone who hates on the gym knows EXACTLY who I'm talking about.

#2 and #4 ARE legal, other card games do it, very successfully as well.
#5, I'm not sure about the legality of the situation. Its not gambling if all the money gone into an event is subject to risk of losing it. That's per the gaming laws of Nevada(which is the main gambling laws to which we adhere)

I don't want to elaborate regarding #3, being on my phone doesn't allow me to type THAT much, lol.


I think respecting a decision because they are in control the game, no matter how bad of a decision it is, is wrong.
Respect is something you earn, not automatically receive. TPCi is quickly losing the respect of all players, sadly. When the company does not take into account the bigger basis of players in the game, but basis a decision on a 10-15% of a tournament field, is wrong. Again, lets not ruin this game with a group of guys who have ZERO idea what the players want, what the players need, what the FANS want/need, there has to be something done...The players have a voice, we have a voice. TPCi better LISTEN to our voice or this game will get out if hand in a negative. I wanna see this game thrive, I want to be proud to shake the hands of the leaders of this game after winning worlds, knowing that they are doing their absolute BEST to make this THE game for the people.


I'm sorry if I am ranting, I am just so frustrated that I came to this beautiful game after my days of Yugioh due to horrible management to only find out that this game is run MUCH worse(albeit less smelly than other cards games). Please, fix this.

 

[Otaku]

Is this me? Sorry I can't help that people like what I have to say. I had a few people at Nationals tell me so in person (players and parents).

I keep forgetting you are a Moderator.

Actually, most of the moderators I get along with fall into that category. :lol:

 

[Vegeta ss4]

I will say this, allowing me to run the Iron Chef tournaments is a step in the right direction for the Pokegym, in my eyes. Allowing for such FUN events is crucial for this sites success. Giving prizes to winners which the 'gym has done is AMAZING, I am very appreciative of that.

I just wish I had the power to do what I want with this site. Make it more fun, and potentially allowing a more adult oriented area on the gym, with an age verification. I definitely know that will NEVER happen, but I wish it were possible. I think many avoid this site because of a lack of real insight or even a reason to come here when various other sites offer a lot more information and credibility with less worry of someone's "tongue."

Let me reiterate here, I am not saying lets take this site from the kids and make it an adult site. I definitely understand what this site is and I don't want to completely change things around. Perhaps we can allow certain adult minded topics albeit with in good taste with no foul words is in order.

Aside from the Iron Chef tournament and Hatter's online Pokémon tournament, there is nothing. Lets create more "fun" on this site. Lets make Pokegym events, deckbuilding competitions, deck playing competitions, Pokémon quizzes, FRONT PAGE WORTHY GAMES with Pokémon related things from everything that I stated above. Lets create a new "sub-forum" area where we can have "Pokegym approved" contests. I mean no offense by this, but we have Mods on this site that are mods here for one reason, CREATING GAME/CONTESTS. Every time we get that going, they lose focus and it all dies and it was all for nothing. How about we, the Pokegym users and leaders of this site come to a sort of terms of mutual respect and create these games. Maybe even offer prizes for players; Dice, Sleeves, Polo Shirt(Pokegym logo) and other various other prizes.

Just a few thoughts...

 

[losjackal]

Your thoughts on the matter show you are certainly passionate! I've enjoyed talking with you about this.

I think respecting a decision because they are in control the game, no matter how bad of a decision it is, is wrong. Respect is something you earn, not automatically receive.

People have different opinions on that statement you just made, but that is another topic.
Nevertheless, you misunderstand me. I would like to be clear, so anyone who reads this may understand where I argue from.

You are speaking to the definition of respect: "admire (someone or something) deeply, as a result of their abilities, qualities, or achievements"

I am referring to the definition: "agree to recognize and abide by (a legal requirement)"

 

[losjackal]

I keep forgetting you are a Moderator.

Actually, I am not a Moderator. There are other people in charge of keeping their respective forums abiding by the PokeGym rules.

I am just a Technical Administrator because I help out with, you know, technical stuff.