Absol SW and Evolution items rulings

[Mewstor]

Like I posted in the "Ask the Masters" area.

What is the difference in Absol's second attack and the evolution items on Clefairy, Murkrow and Duskull?

How come Clefairy, Murkrow or Duskull can evolve on their first turn after setup, but Absol can't do 40 damage on it's first turn after setup with Raid?

On Clefairy for example it says "Clefairy can evolve during the turn you play it."

And Absol's Raid says "If you played Absol from your hand during this turn, this attack's base damage is 40 instead of 10"

What's the difference in the wording that makes Clafairy, Murkrow or Duskull able to evolve but Absol's attack still does only 10? Is it the "from your hand" part?

Is setup somehow a part of your first turn (the turn you play the card and then it can evolve)?

Earlier answers...

http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=62056 On Absol.

http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=62053 On evolution items.

Hope you understand what I mean.

What I want to know is, why are they different. Why doesn't the same ruling go on both of them? IS setup really a part of your first turn that would make Clafairy, Murkrow or Duskull able to evolve on their first turn (cause they were played during that turn)? If setup is not a part of your first turn, is the ruling on the item pokemon wrong? Is it all just Dependant on the wording "From your hand" (I don't see how it would)?

I don't find these cards rulings really logical when the wordings don't differ from each other that much, but still they are ruled differently :/

Explain this to me or debate it.

 

[Ikari]

I think its different because one is an attack (Absol) and the other is Evolution (Clefairy, Murkrow...)

Evolution has a rule: Not allowed in PKMN put on bench that turn or recently evolved. The item in Clefairy and the other pokes makes posible the "bypass" of that rule. Absol in the other hand, is an attack... that's why i think it can be ruled that cannot be used that effect in your very first turn.

And the truth: Absol with a 1 Energy 40 Damage first turn will be broken. :lol:

I read the links you provide, and now makes sense: Setup dont count as "putting x card from your hand" then, it dont trigger the effect. Seems like the YOUR HAND means: Every turn Except the setup turn.

 

[Mewstor]

And the truth: Absol with a 1 Energy 40 Damage first turn will be broken. :lol:

Yes it would And that ruling should not change.

I read the links you provide, and now makes sense: Setup dont count as "putting x card from your hand" then, it dont trigger the effect. Seems like the YOUR HAND means: Every turn Except the setup turn.

That's what I mean. Is setup really a part of the turn when you play the Pokemon? The cards says they can evolve on the turn they were played. How were they played during setup? They just were there when the game started :/

 

[Ikari]

That's what I mean. Is setup really a part of the turn when you play the Pokemon? The cards says they can evolve on the turn they were played. How were they played during setup? They just were there when the game started :/

Put it simply:

In every other turn than the first turn, every poke (Or trainer, or energy... not counting pokepower and other things :lol comes from your hand. You put Absol from your hand IN THE TURN, you get the effect. But, Setup is kinda a PRE-TURN thing. Ok, you still put Absol from your hand (Technically XD) BUT you do it from a PRE-TURN (Called Setup) Fase. So, you put Absol from your hand during your turn? NO, then, you cant use the effect. Your turn (T1) begins when you are done with Setup (Pre-Turn)

At least, this is the way i see :thumb:

 

[Aggy&Co.]

don't play Absol on the set up. retreat your active (just pick one with a free retreat) play Absol on your first turn attach the energy and whamo should count for 40.
It's the setup that kills it so just go around the ruling by playing on the first turn.

 

[fchangus2]

what basic has a free retreat in the meta now?

don't play Absol on the set up. retreat your active (just pick one with a free retreat) play Absol on your first turn attach the energy and whamo should count for 40.
It's the setup that kills it so just go around the ruling by playing on the first turn.

 

[rhodesia123]

what basic has a free retreat in the meta now?

Oh My God the one with 2 giant sized molars...... the one who likes cheese..... the one who was almost killed by your cat the other day.... yes that's right im talking about none other than rattata sw

 

[Darkwalker]

what basic has a free retreat in the meta now?

Kyogre Ex, Latios Ex and any other Lati's if he is in play. Jynx d if evolved from Smoochum or any Fire or Psychic Pokemon with 1 retreat cost if you can get an evolved Jynx d in play ( ie. Mentor for Absol Smoochum and Jynx). Most Psychic Pokemon if you play Phoebe's Stadium.

These are a few off the top of my head. Obviously, some of these require you to go second to be able to pull this off on turn 1, but it's still possible if you have the right starting hand.

 

[Hatter™]

We should of just kept what the Japanese Absol said. it said"this effect doesn't work if you played Absol during set up."

 

[(TYranitarFReak)]

This might soon turn into a big debate like the "why cant u lvl up a LV X?".

 

[Mewstor]

don't play Absol on the set up. retreat your active (just pick one with a free retreat) play Absol on your first turn attach the energy and whamo should count for 40.
It's the setup that kills it so just go around the ruling by playing on the first turn.

Thank you for taking this thread completely off topic!

I want to know about the item pokemons rulings, not how you should play with Absol. It has nothing to do with this!

Is it so hard to stay on topic? Please guys. Read my first post.

We should of just kept what the Japanese Absol said. it said"this effect doesn't work if you played Absol during set up."

And I didn't say it should be changed! I'm comparing Absols ruling to the evolution item pokemons ruling.

Put it simply:

In every other turn than the first turn, every poke (Or trainer, or energy... not counting pokepower and other things :lol comes from your hand. You put Absol from your hand IN THE TURN, you get the effect. But, Setup is kinda a PRE-TURN thing. Ok, you still put Absol from your hand (Technically XD) BUT you do it from a PRE-TURN (Called Setup) Fase. So, you put Absol from your hand during your turn? NO, then, you cant use the effect. Your turn (T1) begins when you are done with Setup (Pre-Turn)

At least, this is the way i see :thumb:

Is that an official ruling? In that case, setup is counted as part of your first turn. Putting pokemon from your hand to be active/benched during setup count as them being played on you first turn?

There has been weird unlogical rulings before also, but I just feel like debating this. Cause the wording on the card, with the official answer from the rulings team, suggest that either the ruling is wrong, or that setup really is part of your first turn, and putting cards on the table during setup counts as them being played.

 

[mila]

OMG Rattata has free retreat!

 

[Ikari]

Is that an official ruling?

At least, this is the way i see :thumb:

I dont think is the official rule, that's my way to see it. But can Ask the masters for that point:

Is Setup part of your very first turn?

If No: Absol cant use the Raid Effect.
If Yes: We can discuss Absol here. :biggrin:

 

[bugsbite]

And I didn't say it should be changed! I'm comparing Absols ruling to the evolution item pokemons ruling.



Is that an official ruling? In that case, setup is counted as part of your first turn. Putting pokemon from your hand to be active/benched during setup count as them being played on you first turn?

There has been weird unlogical rulings before also, but I just feel like debating this. Cause the wording on the card, with the official answer from the rulings team, suggest that either the ruling is wrong, or that setup really is part of your first turn, and putting cards on the table during setup counts as them being played.

I am with you, this needs to be clarified, rulings need to be consistent . I think pokemon played at setup is part of the first turn, but what do I know.

 

[PokePop]

Set up is not part of the first turn. It is set up.

Yes, there is a problem with the wording on the evolution item cards, but it is more of a clarification than an errata. It basically means that they don't have to wait to evolve.
It is totally unrelated to the wording on the Absol, so there is no benefit to tying the two things together.

 

[bugsbite]

Set up is not part of the first turn. It is set up.

Is set up a physical turn since it is not the "first turn"?

According to this definition a turn is:

To perform successfully; complete

So is there in the rules somewhere that states that set up is not a turn? I do not remember. If it is,case closed.

Absol reads:

"If you played Absol from your hand during this turn, this attack's base damage is 40 instead of 10"

 

[Prime]

set-up is not a turn. That is why at tournaments, the judge says, "Okay, everyone set-up!", then follows it by "Okay, everyone can start!" Set-up is not a turn, it's the process people do before the game starts. If you start with Absol, by the time the game starts, Absol is already in play, thus he isn't considered to be laid down that turn.

 

[bugsbite]

set-up is not a turn. That is why at tournaments, the judge says, "Okay, everyone set-up!", then follows it by "Okay, everyone can start!" Set-up is not a turn, it's the process people do before the game starts. If you start with Absol, by the time the game starts, Absol is already in play, thus he isn't considered to be laid down that turn.

I know.

My point is that the wording should be a little clearer like the Japanese version as mentioned by MadHatter that states "this effect doesn't work if you played Absol during set up." The English translation is not accurate.

This will be an issue at tournaments and other play, that is why I am playing the devil's advocate.

 

[PokePop]

It won't be an issue at Tournaments.
The ruling has been made.
This is just a question about "why" and "why not".
That does not mean the ruling is not to be enforced.

 

[Mewstor]

So... Setup is not a part of your first turn. That would make the evolution items text misworded. The wording is contrary to the basic rule when a card is considered being played, so this is just one more rule that'll just have to be known and remembered, not to be interpreted by the wording. Thanks. All I wanted to know.