Why would they ever make it Top 4 at Cities?

[NoPoke]

Its true that with a T4 only one of the players in the T4 benefits. 2 loose out.
With a T8 only two players benefit, 4 loose out.
These top cuts aren't all they are cracked up to be.

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Wild suggestion for how to address the 'less well-run event' issue could be a void round. The first round of the top cut would not count for points!

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ErikNance: you have to concentrate upon the pluses. 5-1 at an event is a net four wins. That 5-1 is in the bag and brings the player closer to avoiding the grinder.

Also its not the affected Norwegian players who are complaining. Or the Norweigian organiser.......

 

[JohnnyBlaze]

Now its even more importanat than ever for X-0 players to drop prior to the T4 in Cities. If you are the only X-0 player than that means that you are undefeated and the 4 below you are all X-1. Therefore 3 out of those 4 will go X-2 by the time the Top Cut is done and only one other player will be X-1 and you that sat out is still X-0 perserving all of your points. This is clear and this is what all the smart players will do at Cities.

 

[eriknance]

ErikNance: you have to concentrate upon the pluses. 5-1 at an event is a net four wins. That 5-1 is in the bag and brings the player closer to avoiding the grinder.

Yeah, you're right about this NoPoke, and thanks for staying optimistic. I'm not going to lie -- I care about the points. But I also care about the competitive game itself without any additional factors. A T4 cut at a tournament with 20+ players in each division makes it very hard to decide the "best player" of the day. An X-1 player may have had the deck to win for the day, but because of a bad hand doesn't have a chance to win the tournament. One thing I have always said is that I give myself one bad luck game for the day and that's it. As long as I can make it into the top cut, I'm confident in myself on performing well, but I have to get to the top cut first. Points aside, I want the best player of the day to win, and I don't think a Top 4 cut does that idea very much justice (unless there weren't many people at the tournament to begin with).

It also makes the competitive environment more fierce. I can't wait to hear all of the sour grapes about the "bad hands" or "unfair calls" from a tournament that made a player lose their one game that knocked them out of the top cut.

For the people who care more about the points than anything, this might even be good news. But I personally don't like the idea of a T4 at CC's.

Now its even more importanat than ever for X-0 players to drop prior to the T4 in Cities. If you are the only X-0 player than that means that you are undefeated and the 4 below you are all X-1. Therefore 3 out of those 4 will go X-2 by the time the Top Cut is done and only one other player will be X-1 and you that sat out is still X-0 perserving all of your points. This is clear and this is what all the smart players will do at Cities.

Another good point. If this idea holds up, expect dropping to be more prominent than ever.

 

[NoPoke]

Now its even more importanat than ever for X-0 players to drop prior to the T4 in Cities. If you are the only X-0 player than that means that you are undefeated and the 4 below you are all X-1. Therefore 3 out of those 4 will go X-2 by the time the Top Cut is done and only one other player will be X-1 and you that sat out is still X-0 perserving all of your points. This is clear and this is what all the smart players will do at Cities.

Thinks... at the end of the swiss rounds with one 6-0 and four 5-1s. The 6-0 drops so the four 5-1 go into the cut. I wish I knew if there was a 3/4 playoff at Cities. Oh well both cases.....

With a 3/4 playoff

6-0 :=> 6-0 (+6)
5-1 :=> 5-3 (+2)
5-1 :=> 6-2 (+4)
5-1 :=> 6-2 (+4)
5-1 :=> 7-1 (+6)

So only one player benefits from the T4, and one player is worse off.

Without the 3/4 playoff

6-0 :=> 6-0 (+6)
5-1 :=> 5-2 (+3)
5-1 :=> 5-2 (+3)
5-1 :=> 6-2 (+4)
5-1 :=> 7-1 (+6)

One player benefits and two are worse off.


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Its an interesting point you bring up Erik " I want the best player of the day to win" Yes that has to be correct and then I thought about it some more...

1. I want the best player to win all the time
2. I want the best player to win most of the time
3. I don't want the best players to win often
4. I don't want the best players to win at all.

(I'm probably a choice #2) Then there is the very contentious issue of who or what defines the "best player". The Oslo tournament had several T2/T3 wins.

 

[rhodesia123]

hey liesik, dav, pete, jimmer, can we get some input here? :biggrin:

 

[PojosamaWannabe]

hey liesik, dav, pete, jimmer, can we get some input here? :biggrin:

Yea, please. I don't want to drive 1-2 hours away for 4 or 5 weekends in a row just to miss a cut for losing 1 game

 

[bugsbite]

A T4 cut at a tournament with 20+ players in each division makes it very hard to decide the "best player" of the day. An X-1 player may have had the deck to win for the day, but because of a bad hand doesn't have a chance to win the tournament.

tbh I don't think any of these tournaments give us the best player of the day because of the randomness of the game itself, which includes luck, who you play, what deck you go against and that players skill.

The only true way to see who the best player is have everyone play the same deck and that defeats the purpose of playing.

Bottom line people if you are so worried about winning all the time you are setting yourself up for disappointment because it is the nature of this game, so everyone take your unrealistic ambitions and sour grapes out of your butts and have fun and bond with people. Isn't that what is all about??

 

[SD PokeMom]

hey liesik, dav, pete, jimmer, can we get some input here? :biggrin:

the thread was just started over the weekend.

it's the week before a major US holiday. a lot of offices and school districts have the entire week off.

don't expect an answer anytime soon...

jmho,
'mom

 

[JandPDS]

Um, States were always maxed to T8, just some States got so many players that they couldnt justify doing a T8 and had to do a T16, most likely based on what the software gave them. You can say max T4, but if you get like 50 players in 1 age group, your gonna have a hard time doing that.

JMO,
Drew

Now look at what you are saying. In the past some states had so many people that they had a top 16 cut.
Last year those same states had more people participating and only had a Top 8 that is a change and it is less then before. PTO's no longer have the ability to use a Top 16 instead the Top 8. The Top 8 in States and Top 4 in Citys is a firm mandatory ceiling weather they get 40 players or 100 in the age group. The Top cuts are no longer determined by how many people are participating in the event, but the are predetermined by the type of event that it is. I wish that top cuts would go back to being set by event size not by event type.

 

[TheDarkTwins]

Now look at what you are saying. In the past some states had so many people that they had a top 16 cut.
Last year those same states had more people participating and only had a Top 8 that is a change and it is less then before. PTO's no longer have the ability to use a Top 16 instead the Top 8. The Top 8 in States and Top 4 in Citys is a firm mandatory ceiling weather they get 40 players or 100 in the age group. The Top cuts are no longer determined by how many people are participating in the event, but the are predetermined by the type of event that it is. I wish that top cuts would go back to being set by event size not by event type.

The 2nd part of my post was referring to Cities not States, I messed up on that part.

Drew

 

[Lawman]

Ian: No 3/4th matches.

PUI has set the topcut amounts based on the level of the tourney. Some areas, this will hardly make a ripple; others, a maelstorm. 16 in an age group makes a perfect T4 cut. Above that and the numbers skew away from an ideal cut (barring drops). Bottom line....he/she that gets the "easier" route in a tourney with match ups and oppo's better not lose. Those with "tougher" oppo's will probably squeak in with 1 loss.

Keith

 

[Articjedi]

I think I get the logic, they're trying to limit the number of rounds at any given tournament. Areas with more players are punished because they play less games, and therefore get lower ratings. You can't have large OP areas with few dominant players taking over the ratings system because the cuts are smaller.

 

[PojosamaWannabe]

This doesn't limit the amount of swiss rounds at all. In NY/NJ, the area is so dense with players, a normal CC will have AT LEAST 35 Masters. Most likely the number will be upwards of 45-50. There should be an option to go to Top 8 if over a certain number. I hope TOs just do that anyway.

 

[eriknance]

My comments are bolded.

tbh I don't think any of these tournaments give us the best player of the day because of the randomness of the game itself, which includes luck, who you play, what deck you go against and that players skill.

I'm not going to deny the role luck plays in the outcome of a Pokemon TCG tournament. However, I've seen plenty of instances in which "luck" (as in matchups or bad hands) was not a factor for the player with skill (I recall the 2006 Southeast Regionals in which Jake Burt won with Polistall, despite being paired up against many "autolosses"). I certainly think that skill is something that can reveal itself by the end of a tournament, and I'm sorry you don't see things the same way. As it stands though, a T4 cut at City Championships means that nothing can wrong for you, otherwise you lose. All players have a stroke of bad luck here or there, but I don't think it should prevent a person from winning the tournament for that day. If a T8 cut means that the "best player" of the day is better represented, then I'm all for it. If this game were just a random shot in the dark, I wouldn't be posting this at all, because I wouldn't play.

The only true way to see who the best player is have everyone play the same deck and that defeats the purpose of playing.

That's hardly the only way to determine skill. I mean, you kind of skipped over such things as deckbuilding, creativity, ingenuity, the whole "secret deck" phenomenon... these are all things that are indicative of skill. Doing what you proposed would actually lend itself to luck being an even more important factor than it already is.

Bottom line people if you are so worried about winning all the time you are setting yourself up for disappointment because it is the nature of this game, so everyone take your unrealistic ambitions and sour grapes out of your butts and have fun and bond with people. Isn't that what is all about??


I really feel that you're responding more at this point to the recent discussions that have come up concerning "elites" as compared to players in general. I'm not after a win with my response, I simply want to see the best player win when it comes to playing in a tournament. I think this is something everyone wants; otherwise, we wouldn't even do top cuts -- we'd just play a few rounds and call it quits. I'm not saying what I've said because I want to win, win, WIN. I just want things to be fair for everyone. Furthermore, for me a great deal of the "fun" part is competing. It's not something that makes me a bad person, I just like to see the results of my intellectual effort when it comes to playing this game. I stopped playing way back in 1999 because there wasn't any competitive environment for the game (at least not that I was aware of). But since I've found fun in the competitive aspect to this game I've stuck like glue to the scene. I've made plenty of friends by playing this game as well, so don't think of me as a sour person only wanting to win a tournament. I just have fun in competing with other brilliant minds.

 

[Lawman]

This doesn't limit the amount of swiss rounds at all. In NY/NJ, the area is so dense with players, a normal CC will have AT LEAST 35 Masters. Most likely the number will be upwards of 45-50. There should be an option to go to Top 8 if over a certain number. I hope TOs just do that anyway.

Stated again, IF a TO runs a T8 cut at a CC, they run the risk of the entire tournament being invalidated by PUI. The instructions given to the PTOs and TOs are VERY CLEAR. I "hope" you understand now. IF a TO does otherwise, dont gripe here for the lack of points you "would have gained", bc you will gain nothing.

Keith

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

I think I get the logic, they're trying to limit the number of rounds at any given tournament. Areas with more players are punished because they play less games, and therefore get lower ratings. You can't have large OP areas with few dominant players taking over the ratings system because the cuts are smaller.

Wrong. The larger areas will still have more overall rounds. You will probably have 5-6 rds of swiss vs smaller areas with only say, 4 rds of swiss. With a T4, you get (at most) 2 more rds. Larger areas will still benefit. It just takes away the chance for bigger point swings in the T8 rd. Most players in the topcut will have the higher rankings in the area, ergo, a chance to skin more points.

We have all seen the results of someone going 4-1 in swiss, losing in T4 and they LOSE points for the day bc the early rds gave them randies and few points to get. The 2 losses overall take away more points than the 4 Ws on the day. I believe POP is trying give more positive results to more players. IF you miss the top cut, but went say, 4-1, you gain points most likely. If you sqeak into a topcut with a 3-2 record (or 4-2), get the 8th seed and lose to seed 1, you end up in a negative day, quite possibly. Just something to consider.

Keith

 

[JandPDS]

This isn't about points, its about geting a chance to win

If a player only cares about points then they can go 3-0 and drop. This is not about points it is about playing well and deserving to get proper credit for it in the event, and your deserved shot at the Championship. When I play in a Tournament I have 3 goals. My first is a .500 Record. After I have secured that my goal is to make the Top Cut. After I have made Top Cut my goal is to win the event. If a player goes 4-1 They should be in the top cut or the top cut is really not all that valid, as some of the better players are artificially eliminated from competing for the championship because the Top cut is to small a sample size. If someone performs well enough they deserve the chance to move on. I have defeated #2 seeds, when I was #15 and I have lost to #15 seeds when I was the #2. Our Swiss play finish was not representative of our skill level that day. How often dose the #1 ranked Swiss player win an event anyways, not all that often, Why is that?

That is because Swiss play is so random that the best players in the event are rarely the top Swiss finishers, but often can get donked in a single Match, but best 2-3 is a more accurate measure of which player is better that day.

 

[DarthPika]

This sucks.

In MD we regularly get 40-50 masters for just btlrds.
We most likly will get even more for citys........ and with a T4 cut, it's not going to be pretty.

 

[Lawman]

JandPDS: I have judged many a top cut. Usually, the winner will be the one with the deck advantage. If the decks are 'neutral' to each other, than the skill of the players kicks in more. It is hard to win a 2/3 1 hr match if you run into your near autoloss. I recall a state championship a few yrs ago were I made top cut w/ a rougish deck. I got paired w/ my only weakness in the t8/t16 (dont recall which rd). I had the better seed, but went down in flames. Rub of the green.

Look, I would prefer to run a t8 in CCs if the numbers justify it. Players making topcuts are fun. But, with the guidelines sent down by PUI (which I will follow) and the prize support sent (top 4 only, no supplementation for 5-8 allowed), how would the players feel that spent an extra hr and a half to play in topcut and lose, getting nada?? (Remember, the judges need to perform deck checks prior to the topcut rd)

I will have some nice door prizes to appease the masses that appear at my events. Of course, everyone has the same chance of winning those though.

Keith

 

[JandPDS]

Is this what it is all about... Prize support????

I really hope that Top Cuts are not being reduced because of not enough prize support for everyone if there was a top 8.

I really hope that Top Cuts are not being reduced because of not enough prize support for everyone if there was a top 8.

If this is the secret hidden reason for the reduction in Top cuts, that is as silly as the notion that everyone who got an invite to play in Worlds had to have a trip included as well.

There is absolutely no reason that everyone who makes a top cut has to win a prize. You could still have a Citys with a top 8 and prizes just for those who make the Top 4. Wining free packs and all is fine and such but I would much rather have a greater chance to qualify for the finals.

If players know going into the event that there will only be prizes for the Top 4 there will not be any issue for not giving prizes to those who loose in Top 8.

Citys could have a Top 8 and only prizes for the Top 4 and that would work out best for everyone.
States could go back to having a Top 16 and only prizes for Top 8 like it worked in the past.

In 2006 In Oregon States I went 5-1 in Swiss, was the #2 seed and lost to the #15 seed who was 4-2 (and my wife by the way). She then lost in the top 8. She got prizes and I did not. Did I feel bad that she got prizes as the #15 seed and I did not a the #2 seed? Of course not, because I knew that Swiss play did not determine prizes, but that you has to win your T16 match to crack top 8 and get a prize. I did not win so I did not get a prize. That was fair and the way it should have been.

So please I really hope that the fact that there are not enough for prizes for everyone who makes Top 8 in a Citys as the reason for a Mandatory Top 4 limitation in City Championships

 

[Scizor]

I completely agree with the decision to lower top cuts. For those of you whining about missing your T4 at Cities and T8 at States: at least you get to go to a ton of them. Yeah, it would suck to miss at States with 5-2, but it is a million times better than 7-2 miss at Nationals. And on the topic of those getting punished for not running the right cut, I hope that happens, especially after what happened last year (and the mysterious 3+ BRs I heard about running 7 rounds).