Report - German National Championship - First Place Masters

[Yoshi-]

Why do I feel like I shouldnt answer this :/? I did like the judge told me, I got 2 deckchecks and there were no issues.

@Squirtle

I'd love to play you but still you seem to mix me up with someone I was sitting next to you during the first 4 rounds, but never actually played you.

 

[ryanvergel]

the deck should match the decklist, and he tried to reconcile that after passing through deckcheck unnoticed.

not a big deal.

 

[MathAenya]

Congratulations David !
Seems like at least someone can beat Luxchomp in Europe !

 

[Lawman]

The reason I asked about the deck being changed is simple. There is a penalty for having a Legal Deck, Legal Decklist 7.3.4. The penalty is a Warning at tier 1 and 2 events. (Nats being a 2). BUT, the deck must match the list turned in and if you cannot fix the deck to match the list, then that card is removed and replaced with a basic energy (player's choice as to energy). The penalty CAN be escalated, if the HJ determines a significant advantage was gained by the "mix up".

The player is ultimately responsible for their deck and list, irregardless if the deck made it through a deck check or not!

The penalty needed to be handed down and then it could be tracked for the day and even later. Hopefully the Judge gave you the warning the error required.

Keith

---------- Post added 06/01/2010 at 01:18 PM ----------

Here is the guideline section:

7.3.4. Legal Decklist, Legal Deck
Occasionally a player’s decklist and deck meet the format restrictions and the deck construction rules but do not match. As the contents of the decklist always take priority over the contents of the deck itself, the player must modify his or her deck so that it matches the decklist. If the player is unable to provide the cards listed on the decklist, missing cards should be replaced with basic Energy cards of the player’s choice, and the decklist should be updated to reflect these changes.
As with previous categories, the Head Judge should carefully consider what advantage, if any, was gained by this error. If the Head Judge feels that there was a significant advantage or the Pokémon Organized Play Penalty Guidelines
Rev: September 1, 2009
13
error cannot be easily fixed during the match, elevating the penalty to a Game Loss may be necessary.
Examples of Deck Problems: Legal Decklist, Legal Deck include:
•
A player’s deck contains 4 Darkness Energy cards, but the decklist contains 4 Dark Metal Energy cards.
•
A player’s deck contains 4 Shelgon cards (EX Delta Species 53/113), but the decklist contains 2 Shelgon cards (EX Delta Species 53/113) and 2 Shelgon cards (EX Delta Species 54/113).
•
A player’s deck contains 3 Battle Frontier cards and 2 Cursed Stone cards, but the decklist contains 2 Battle Frontier cards and 3 Cursed Stone cards.
•
In an Unlimited event, the decklist contains four copies of Torchic (EX Ruby & Sapphire 73/109), but the deck contains four copies of Torchic (EX Ruby & Sapphire 74/109).
•
Cards in the player’s deck have been marked on, though none of the markings appear to create a marked card situation.
Recommended Starting Penalty:
Tier 1: Warning
Tier 2: Warning

 

[TheDarkTwins]

The reason I asked about the deck being changed is simple. There is a penalty for having a Legal Deck, Legal Decklist 7.3.4. The penalty is a Warning at tier 1 and 2 events. (Nats being a 2). BUT, the deck must match the list turned in and if you cannot fix the deck to match the list, then that card is removed and replaced with a basic energy (player's choice as to energy). The penalty CAN be escalated, if the HJ determines a significant advantage was gained by the "mix up".

The player is ultimately responsible for their deck and list, irregardless if the deck made it through a deck check or not!

The penalty needed to be handed down and then it could be tracked for the day and even later. Hopefully the Judge gave you the warning the error required.

Keith

---------- Post added 06/01/2010 at 01:18 PM ----------

Here is the guideline section:

7.3.4. Legal Decklist, Legal Deck
Occasionally a player’s decklist and deck meet the format restrictions and the deck construction rules but do not match. As the contents of the decklist always take priority over the contents of the deck itself, the player must modify his or her deck so that it matches the decklist. If the player is unable to provide the cards listed on the decklist, missing cards should be replaced with basic Energy cards of the player’s choice, and the decklist should be updated to reflect these changes.
As with previous categories, the Head Judge should carefully consider what advantage, if any, was gained by this error. If the Head Judge feels that there was a significant advantage or the Pokémon Organized Play Penalty Guidelines
Rev: September 1, 2009
13
error cannot be easily fixed during the match, elevating the penalty to a Game Loss may be necessary.
Examples of Deck Problems: Legal Decklist, Legal Deck include:
•
A player’s deck contains 4 Darkness Energy cards, but the decklist contains 4 Dark Metal Energy cards.
•
A player’s deck contains 4 Shelgon cards (EX Delta Species 53/113), but the decklist contains 2 Shelgon cards (EX Delta Species 53/113) and 2 Shelgon cards (EX Delta Species 54/113).
•
A player’s deck contains 3 Battle Frontier cards and 2 Cursed Stone cards, but the decklist contains 2 Battle Frontier cards and 3 Cursed Stone cards.
•
In an Unlimited event, the decklist contains four copies of Torchic (EX Ruby & Sapphire 73/109), but the deck contains four copies of Torchic (EX Ruby & Sapphire 74/109).
•
Cards in the player’s deck have been marked on, though none of the markings appear to create a marked card situation.
Recommended Starting Penalty:
Tier 1: Warning
Tier 2: Warning

:lol:, you truly are a lawyer at heart.

I will say that under the circumstances, I most likely would of done the same thing as he did. I am not saying that is the right thing to do, but it really to me isn't a big deal if he fixes an problem as soon as it arises, but that's me. I will say there are situations that I would find it to be a big deal however. But noticing after R1 and fixing it to me isn't one of them.

Congrats on winning, very nice job and see you in Hawaii. :thumb:

Drew

 

[evil psyduck]

:lol:, you truly are a lawyer at heart.

I will say that under the circumstances, I most likely would of done the same thing as he did. I am not saying that is the right thing to do, but it really to me isn't a big deal if he fixes an problem as soon as it arises, but that's me. I will say there are situations that I would find it to be a big deal however. But noticing after R1 and fixing it to me isn't one of them.

Congrats on winning, very nice job and see you in Hawaii. :thumb:

Drew

So it isn't a big deal to change your deck after the tournament has already started? It is called illegal and cheating. And no Drew this is not directed at just you. It is at anybody that would do it.

 

[Yoshi-]

After round one was over I noticed there was a wrong card in my deck, a card I didnt even use til this point, I told the headjudge about it and he told me to exchange it, I did, I got deckchecked -> no problem oO
I fail to see the problem / why you guys bother

I didnt cheat, I didnt even use the card, and I changed it so it would match my decklist. I also didnt even use the card once during the entire tournament

 

[evil psyduck]

After round one was over I noticed there was a wrong card in my deck, a card I didnt even use til this point, I told the headjudge about it and he told me to exchange it, I did, I got deckchecked -> no problem oO
I fail to see the problem / why you guys bother

The problem is the judge should not have let you do that without the correct penalty. What part of cheating and against the rules do you not understand?

 

[Volt]

And what part of "the headjudge solved the problem" do you not understand?

Annoying and useless discussions are annoying and useless.

 

[ShadowGuard]

Seriously, there are more imporatant things than whether a player got a Warning or not. Of course it would be correct , but keep in mind that it wasn't noticed in a deck check but he told the judge by himself.

And I'm honestly shocked that forum moderators accuse players of cheating who just did a little mistake. :frown:

 

[evil psyduck]

Seriously, there are more imporatant things than whether a player got a Warning or not. Of course it would be correct , but keep in mind that it wasn't noticed in a deck check but he told the judge by himself.

And I'm honestly shocked that forum moderators accuse players of cheating who just did a little mistake. :frown:

And it doesn't matter if a deck check was done and not caught then. A player is responsible for his own deck no matter what. He caught it himself but he still should have gotten a penalty even if it was an accident.

And my being a forum moderator has nothing to do with it thank you.

 

[TheDarkTwins]

So it isn't a big deal to change your deck after the tournament has already started? It is called illegal and cheating. And no Drew this is not directed at just you. It is at anybody that would do it.

Wow, we have already had our issues, I know you're not directing at me, but I feel you are.

Here is my thoughts. I did say there are certain situations that I wouldn't have an issue with this and other that I would. This is one of those ones that as soon as the player noticed that he screwed up he fixed the error. After one game I really don't see the issue as the player was trying to be honest. He made a mistake, he wasn't cheating, he was fixing an simply error that in all honest isn't a big deal.

The problem is the judge should not have let you do that without the correct penalty. What part of cheating and against the rules do you not understand?

He wasn't cheating. Cheating is trying to knowingly gain an advantage on purpose. Fixing something as soon as you can becuase you made a mistake isn't really cheating. It is a mistake, sure, but cheating it isn't. I am sure that POP would agree that this wasn't cheating.

And it doesn't matter if a deck check was done and not caught then. A player is responsible for his own deck no matter what. He caught it himself but he still should have gotten a penalty even if it was an accident.

And my being a forum moderator has nothing to do with it thank you.

Finally, did you read what he said? He said that he found the error, realized it. Went and found the card. Told the Judge about it. They judge told him okay, and then deck checked him to make sure that his list was now in order of his deck list. It was and therefore he allowed him to keep playing.

I just think that out of things that we should be giving penalties, going up to the judge to tell them you made an error and you have fixed it as far as your deck is concerned, especially something like a Grotle isn't a HUGE deal to me. Do we really need to penalize the honesty players who was trying to do the right thing? I mean that is a little bit extreme. We are trying to encourage a positive atmosphere, not make it a negative one.

I think that this thread is way off topic. It is more of thing that the player should just be told congrats and whatnot. We shouldn't really keep posting about this.

Drew

 

[ryanvergel]

And it doesn't matter if a deck check was done and not caught then. A player is responsible for his own deck no matter what. He caught it himself but he still should have gotten a penalty even if it was an accident.

And my being a forum moderator has nothing to do with it thank you.

Coulda woulda shoulda. You know full well that a head judge's decision is final. The HJ did not give a penalty, so there is no sense in antagonizing this kid over a stupid matter.

Should he have? Maybe- take it up with the HJ, PTO, and POP- this is NOT the correct avenue to pursue such things.

 

[cardfreak]

And my being a forum moderator has nothing to do with it thank you.

nice grammar, forum mod

 

[Chompy]

How often did you even use the Grotle anyways? It's not like Grotle could affect the game in any way or shape. If you would've used the wrong Grotle from any of the games, I could understand the issue, but since you didn't use the wrong Grotle (except for evolving purposes), then you should give him a second chance,

 

[yoyofsho16]

nice grammar, forum mod

This isn't incorrect... it's HIS (possession) state of being a forum mod, therefore his being a forum mod.

As far as the Grotle goes, who cares? It's just a Grotle. It was after round 1. The HJ may not have given him a severe enough penalty by the books, but keep in mind that this Nationals was smaller than most US Regionals. The judge, not being a stingy American, simply heard David out and allowed the tiny change. The two cards are almost exactly alike, and the Grotle never even attacked in any of the games, so there's no point in arguing after the fact.

 

[Lawman]

I find it ironic to say the least that a Judge, the HJ in MAs at the US Nats this year, sees a mistake in a report @ the German Nats winners post and the players say...."no big deal". I guarantee that IF a Judge made the mistake and gave the WRONG penalty @ the German Nats, the players would have GRILLED him here. In fact, I still recall the "Fish fry" we had last year over a call or 2 at the US Nats. (pun intended) You cannot have it both ways folks. Either it was an error and a penalty should be given or not. The bottom line is this...he played rd1 with a legal deck, legal list that did not match up. IF caught during the game, it would be a GAME LOSS (read the rules). Caught at other times and it is merely a WARNING. (usually...there are excetions)

Sorry folks, but that is why we use judges...to catch, track and observe these errors. We tell players all the time, dont try to fix your own errors, call a judge and let them sort it out. Would anyone be real happy to see a player changing out card(s) from their deck in between rds w/o a jude present??? I am glad David went to the HJ and showed him the problem. Props to him. It isnt David's fault that the HJ whiffed on the penalty call bc the ruling is simple in the guidelines. People ask for consistency in the rulings by judges, then we get one of these. The guidelines are there for a reason folks. Use them!

Again, congrats on the W and I look forward to seeing you in Hawaii.

Keith

 

[iamapwnda]

Recommended Starting Penalty:
Tier 1: Warning
Tier 2: Warning

Seems like he talked to the judge, who thought about it, determined that he didn't gain any advantage from the mistake, and decided not to give any penalty. Furthermore the penalty is a WARNING, are you serious? That was probably made for elementary school kids, the top Masters players in Germany do not need a "warning" to keep their behavior in line.

If I was a judge I would probably do the same thing, there is no need to frustrate players by making them paranoid about their deck list. Also if people knew you gave someone a game loss at Nationals for missing a Grotle, do you think the next time someone accidentally messed up their list slightly, they would ever talk to a judge? When I took the Professor Test in '05 it seemed like the POP rules allowed a lot of space for judges to make calls using their own judgment rather than sticking to the letter of the rules (which of course cannot really capture the reality of most situations) - I don't think the judges should be faulted for taking the situation into context, and the player did all he could by reporting it to a judge anyway.

The whole point of Pokemon is supposed to be fun and relaxing, and not some crazy rule-mongering. At Top 4 in Nationals one year my opponent started playing with the wrong deck, and asked me to change it after he drew into his hand. I could have called a judge over and probably won the game like that, but I just let him use his real deck. I didn't trust the judges to rule on it correctly because they are TOO HARSH (as obvious from this thread) and often get carried away and ruin the competition. I eventually won, legitimately, at like 2 AM, but I would rather play a hard-fought battle than let some creepy miser who memorized some book of Pokemon law decide the match for me.

 

[sar86]

I have an awesome idea!

Instead of making a big deal out the situation with the wrong Grotle, (Which is no where near cheating as Yoshi talked to the Head Judge about it) we should be congratulating Yoshi for winning Nationals with an awesome Rogue deck!!!!!!!

Congrats Yoshi for taking German nats with Torterra!:biggrin:

 

[NoPoke]

Don't bash Lawman for spotting the issue, congratulate him. That is what players want judges to do isn't it? Spot issues.

The event HJ gets to decide if it was a big deal or not. Players (and 'gymers after the fact) can have an opinion but the decision is with the HJ.

[FWIW I don't see a GL for what was described even if discovered during the match.]