"Declumping" a Deck

[Politoed666]

But you stac- declump. And have you ever won a tourny??

I admit to having declumped. I have won a tourney in Masters.

Declumping and being good are not mutually exclusive. And don't dare make some crack about not deserving those wins because I "stacked." In all likelihood, I didn't even declump during those tournaments. At all. Most of my builds are consistent enough that I don't have to.

 

[cabd]

You actually have no idea of what ness' credentials are, do you?

Or, they carry no weight for you.

I'm honestly not sure which is worse.

There should be (N-1) thanks on this post, where N=current member count of the pokegym.

 

[Moss Factor]

Because the player feels better about not having 3 rare candies together. That's all it does.

Yeah, I'd feel better about stacking my deck so that I didn't get clumped draws if I were a dirty, rotten cheater, too. Funny thing is, I don't feel any better about myself when I cheat. I feel worse. Maybe its my conscience talking or maybe my will to win doesn't outweigh my will to live a just life. Frankly, I don't know.

To be perfectly frank, Pokegym, there are few things in the world that make me feel good about anything these days. I feel like Drake sometimes, with this crazy lifestyle and the hollow people I associate myself with as of late. That said, I'm pretty sure the cure to my ills isn't de-clumping 3 Rare Candies when I play Matt Toeniskoetter in round 3 of the Newark, NJ City Championships.

But lets not fool ourselves. People don't just "de-clump to feel better." They do it because they feel it gives them an advantage, plain and simple. And you know what? They're right!

 

[DiamondLopes]

People shuffling and randomizing an array of objects in a program is not the same thing. That is why this will never be a problem in PTCGO.

If 3 cards are together it is very likely that they end up together even after shuffling.

Why?

We can't randomize cards! We are not machines! How many players shuffle by "cutting" the deck many times (only in their hands instead of the table... Still the same effect)? Most players can't shuffle fast enough to ensure they can fix that. Now you can let them shuffle more or take 2/3 seconds so fix that. I can shuffle in many ways and I'm quite fast. However, I'm pretty sure that is not a skill required to play this game.

Also this:

if you say "declomping" is cheating then why PREVENTING that those cards are separate (by not letting your opponent "declomp" them) isn't also cheating? He is "randomizing". Also he'll do that that only once. If he does that more than once then he may be cheating.

Sorry but your only argument is wasting time and the player has the right to use a certain amount of seconds to decksearch however he pleases. And then there's those players who spend minutes double checking stuff.... You know... "Not wasting time".

 

[djjoe227]

Let me reiterate a few of my previous points, since you either ignored them or forgot them.

1.) If you find it to be a problem explain how they can improve and good alternatives to replace their current activity.

2.) The approach this thread is taking is not helping people agree with you, in fact it might even dissuade some from your position.

3) I do not support declumping, because I view it as inefficient.

1) Shuffle the deck. I know it's been said a million times, but nobody has really dabbed on the mathematics of it. There is are 3600 ways your deck can be arranged before it repeats a previous arrangement. Declumping sets it to one of the other 3600 ways, and shuffling sets it to a randomly chosen other one of the 3600 arrangements. A few well placed shuffles will get rid of declumping, which is what you are required to do anyway. Declumping you are not required to do, and is a form of fixed shuffling- you aren;t randomly setting your deck to one of the 3600 arrangements, you're setting it to one of the more narrower ones where those cards are not near each other.

2) People will find any disagreement that they still disagree with as harsh. It's how life goes. Until the light is shed on a subject and an opinion changes, people will constantly dissuade from the the position. As far as attitude, you're reading words on a screen and nothing more. Your own interpretation is coming up with the attitudes, something nobody in this thread, whether it be me or anyone else posting, can change without posting a live video feed so you can hear tone and judge nonverbal communication.

3) You're indirectly supporting it; at least that's how I've seen it. I apologize if that is 100% not the case. But, when it comes to this subject the choices are clear- is or is not. If you don't believe that Declumping is a waste of time, for example, then your stance is that Declumping is not a waste of time. If it is not a waste of time, then it has purpose. If it has purpose, and that purpose is an advantage to better drawing (or, just an advantage), then it is stacking the deck (an advantage not required by the game). If it is stacking the deck, then it is cheating. If you feel that people do it as a mentality booster, it's the same thing. If it helps their mentality, it is not a waste of time, and so forth.

 

[Prof Clay]

People shuffling and randomizing an array of objects in a program is not the same thing. That is why this will never be a problem in PTCGO.

If 3 cards are together it is very likely that they end up together even after shuffling.

Why?

We can't randomize cards! We are not machines! How many players shuffle by "cutting" the deck many times (only in their hands instead of the table... Still the same effect)? Most players can't shuffle fast enough to ensure they can fix that. Now you can let them shuffle more or take 2/3 seconds so fix that. I can shuffle in many ways and I'm quite fast. However, I'm pretty sure that is not a skill required to play this game.

If I do 2 blind random 5 pile table shuffles of my deck, I have effectively randomized it. I may not like the cards that come up but it will be random.


As a judge, if I see you are going through your deck pulling cards out that are not part of your search and reorganizing them, I will most likely ASK POLITELY for you to only do what the text of the card says and move on to your shuffle...No penalty involved...but if I am ignored (and I really hate being ignored when I ask something reasonable) I will remember.

At any match there are 2 people who share time...if you are taking unnecesary actions during your turn...regardless of how long you are taking...you are taking game time from yourself and your opponent. Seconds do matter in this game. It can mean the difference in whether or not you get 1 or 2 turns more when time is called (+3 remember).

Game time is not for either player to waste doing things that make them feel better

 

[DiamondLopes]

It still bothers me to see players take minutes doing nothing and it is perfectly legal (at worlds! And judges said it was fine!) while 2 seconds suddenly matter this much

 

[Prof Clay]

It still bothers me to see players take minutes doing nothing and it is perfectly legal (at worlds! And judges said it was fine!) while 2 seconds suddenly matter this much

...and that is an entirely different thread

 

[PokePop]

Note on calling others cheaters: Let's please refrain from that in this topic.
It brings things down to a level of name calling and will get the topic locked.
Although, to be honest, if it continues to go around in circles, it may get locked anyway.
Logic doesn't seem to hold much weight now-a-days.

 

[nishidawin]

I admit to having declumped. I have won a tourney in Masters.

Declumping and being good are not mutually exclusive. And don't dare make some crack about not deserving those wins because I "stacked." In all likelihood, I didn't even declump during those tournaments. At all. Most of my builds are consistent enough that I don't have to.

Hahaha I was talking about vaporeon cause he called himself a skilled player.

 

[bullados]

Thank you Bullados, that article is going straight into my favorites.

Unfortunately with every great article there comes great abuse, I'll go wait for people to start accusing me of those fallacies.

Unfortunately, boss, you and virtually every single poster in this entire topic is guilty of virtually every single offense in that article.

Let's go through every point here...

#5. We're Not Programmed to Seek "Truth," We're Programmed to "Win"

I can't think of a single post on this thread that does not fall into this category.

#4. Our Brains Don't Understand Probability

Vaporeon, Roles, you both fall into this one. Most others here do, but you two have posted the most in this.

#3. We Think Everyone's Out to Get Us

This applies specifically to the Elite Four on here. But most others have done this as well.

#2. We're Hard-Wired to Have a Double Standard

Vaporeon, take the stage.

#1. Facts Don't Change Our Minds

Every single bloody post.

I will not be stating my opinion on this for the record. I do not want this to be perceived as an attack on either side's ideas. This is, however, an attack on EVERY side's representation of their ideas. There is no healthy debate going on in this thread currently. This is a scream fest. And if I had my way, it would stop. Now. It's embarrassing to the community and to the game itself.

If you have something new, interesting, or insightful to say that could possibly provoke a new idea, I welcome said posts. But the way this thread is currently going, it's going to be locked unceremoniously just like several other threads of its ilk have been. And that's too bad. Because it's a good topic of debate, if the debate is kept civil and new ideas are being shown constantly.

 

[zephyrlyn]

You know when you play a copycat or judge, and you just end up drawing into the same cards? Some of ya'll would say I should have declumped my deck so that the cards would be evenly distributed. But doesn't that mean I'm making my own odds doing so? Last time i checked, making your own odds is cheating. The reasoning behind declumping a deck is asinine.

RANDOM. I have no idea what it means. Maybe it's like not knowing what you'll get or something.
-------------------------------------------------
My credential are: A Pokemon player.

 

[vaporeon]

You actually have no idea of what ness' credentials are, do you?

Or, they carry no weight for you.

I'm honestly not sure which is worse.

I never said that. I'm not going to put down a players hard work.

---------- Post added 11/03/2011 at 10:03 AM ----------

Should the Pokemon Online TCG allow for a player to declump if you see the cards are in an order you do not like or does it sufficiently randomize the deck everytime...sometimes to your advantage or detriment?

Just a a question...not a judgement

Would you like it if I used Damage Swap the way it was suppose to used and moved 15 damage counters 1 at a time or would you like it if I move them all at once?

We are not machines. Humans can't set things in a random order. PTCGO does not have the problem because chances are those cards will break up. Maybe if you want in like the online game, we can damage swap for 2 minutes a turn...

 

[Prof Clay]

I never said that. I'm not going to put down a players hard work.

---------- Post added 11/03/2011 at 10:03 AM ----------



We are not machines. Humans can't set things in a random order. PTCGO does not have the problem because chances are those cards will break up..

So...if I play a Cheren on the online game and draw 3 clumped rare candies, the deck was still sufficiently random because a machine shuffled it and not a human...

If this is an acceptable situation, then it should also be acceptable in regular game play

 

[vaporeon]

Hahaha I was talking about vaporeon cause he called himself a skilled player.

Why do you feel the need to berate a players skill level?

 

[Ness]

Should the Pokemon Online TCG allow for a player to declump if you see the cards are in an order you do not like or does it sufficiently randomize the deck everytime...sometimes to your advantage or detriment?

Just a a question...not a judgement

If PTCGO allowed this, there wouldn't be be much (if any) problem since the deck is always going to be randomized regardless. As for wasting time, since the players each have their own clock, it couldn't hurt the opponent. I suppose it still technically could waste a few seconds, but this seems to be no big deal since it can't take away from the opponent's time.

Nonetheless, you can't do it on PTCGO. If you could move cards around, I am confident the intention would be simply to help you quickly identify the card you are looking for. PTCGO actually presents your Pokemon together when you play a Pokemon Collector to help speed up your search - a cool feature. This is done automatically, so that it wastes no time, and the deck is immediately reandomized after searching since there's no physical shuffling needed. I think it's a bad idea to even allow players to rearrange their deck in PTCGO because even though the deck is going to be randomized, the habit could carry over to real life where players are known for doing lazy midgame shuffles and that rearranging would produce an unfair advantage. Basically, even though it could do no harm on PTCGO (other than waste a very small amount of your own time), you wouldn't want to encourage players to do this in real life by even allowing it online.

 

[vaporeon]

Artificial random is the best random we can get. If I play Juniper and draw 7 energy, I'd wish I used and Electrode Prime. Computers use different methods of random and so do humans. Computers look for patterns and mix them up several times. A computer can shuffle thousands of times in 1 go. Humans can only shuffle the best way we know how. Like it was said, we are programed to recognize patterns. If I play a draw card and pick up 3 rare candies, It could suck or it could be very useful, it all depends on the game state. I could Roast Reveal into 3 Pokemon or other cards I don't need.

It all depends on game state but when I get the chance to search. While searching, I notice a bulk of cards together and just move them around the deck and continue my search, taking no extra time. The deck is shuffled by both players and a judge if it's needed.

 

[Prof Clay]

Computers look for patterns and mix them up several times. A computer can shuffle thousands of times in 1 go. Humans can only shuffle the best way we know how. Like it was said, we are programed to recognize patterns.
.

The shuffling program does not look for patterns at all...it shouldn't...that is not a random shuffle.

It simply takes all the data in the file and rearranges it multiple times and stops...there is NEVER a point where the computer checks for "randomness".

My point is that random is random is random. If you never had the opportunity to look at your deck, you would never know its order.

Declumping by definition is saying "I DO NOT LIKE THE ORDER OF MY DECK AND WISH TO INTENTIONALLY CHANGE IT"...that can be viewed as cheating by some. You may not see this as cheating, but if others do, don't you think you have the common courtesy of not doing it?

No...it is not against the rules...why? Not because its ok...but because it is very difficult to enforce from a judging standpoint... maybe you ignored that particular part of the discussion..

I guess that leads to a thread on laws vs ethics...

 

[cabd]

Statistical randomness should be able to produce a ordered sequence of numbers.
int main()
{
int x[10];
for ( int i=0;i<=10;i++)
{
x=Rand[0,10];
printf[("%d",x);
}
return(0);
}
should be able to output 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 if ran enough times

(for the sake of argument, this is pseudo-code, not any specific language or library)

 

[Ness]

Artificial random is the best random we can get.

No! You can't manually create a randomized deck by rearranging cards! Just shuffle your deck!