A debate at league needs to be settled. Background: At Nationals last year it was commnicated that several cards resulted in extra self-damage to Zekrom that we might not have considered. Regigigas Ex comes along and has similar wording and has fueled debate - and has included several new cards in that debate. While I might think that it is clear and settled, it turns out that we need a ruling to settle the debate. I will try to fairly represent all sides here.
Here are the Pokémon involved in the debate:
Zekrom (Bolt Strike) -- "This Pokémon does 40 damage to itself."
Regigigas EX (Gia Power) -- "You may do 20 more damage. If you do, this Pokémon does 20 damage to
itself."
Obviously both have self-damage and have nearly identical wording regarding that. We agree that there is virtually no difference between them for how damage is calculated because self damage is outside of resistance and weakness. There is debate on when to stop calculating damage because of step 2 of the rulebook where it says "stop if the base damage is 0" and the order that the trainers and supporters are applied can result in 0 before other trainers and supporters are calculated into the mix. I think that ALL effects by all trainers and supporters need to be calulated in and then the check for 0 (or less) is performed only once all the effects are tallied.
Here are the Trainers and Supporters involved as erratum is applied:
Eviolite -- "If the Pokémon this card is attached to is a Basic Pokémon, any damage done to this Pokémon by attacks is reduced by 20 (after applying Weakness and Resistance)."
Plus Power -- "During this turn your Pokémon's attacks do 10 more damage to the Active Pokémon (before Weakness and Resistance)."
Defender -- "Attach Defender to 1 of your Pokémon. Discard this card at the end of your opponent’s next turn. Any damage done to the Pokémon Defender is attached to by attacks is reduced by 20 (after applying Weakness and Resistance)."
Rocky Helmet -- "If the Pokémon this card is attached to is your Active Pokémon and is damaged by an opponent's attack (even if that Pokémon is Knocked Out), put 2 damage counters on the Attacking Pokémon."
Black Belt -- "During this turn, each of your Active Pokémon's attacks does 40 more damage to your opponent's Active Pokémon (before applying Weakness and Resistance)."
Without giving up who thinks what, this is the upshot of the debate from both sides (please tell us where this goes south):
Weakness and Resistance is not part of the calculation for self-damage, but gives an indication of the order of application of effects only (before or after).
If Eviolite is attached, it reduces any damage done to the basic Pokémon by attacks from either player, so Bolt Strike's or Gia Power's self-damage would be reduced by 20.
Step 2 in the calculation of self damage is not checked yet because all effects of other Pokémon, Trainers and Supporters have not been completely calculated. If step 2 was checked prematurely here, Gia Power would calculate to zero and no self-damage would occur.
By the same logic as Eviolite, a Plus Power attached would increase the self-damage by 10. So an Eviolite and a Plus Power combined would yield a net adjustment of -10 damage - that is a Zekrom would take 40 - 20 + 10 = 30 damage. Gia Power does self-damage of 20 - 20 + 10 = 10 damage.
If a Defender was placed alongside the Pokémon, since it simply says "by attacks" which would also include self-damage attacks, another 20 is defended against. In our example so far, the Eviolite, Plus Power and a Defender would shake out this way: Zekrom takes 40 - 20 + 10 - 20 for 10 damage inflicted upon himself. Regigigas EX takes 20 - 20 + 10 - 20 = -10 damage which simply means he takes 0 damage upon himself (he does not heal 10).
Rocky Helment is a Tool just like Eviolite and as such only one can be present on a Pokémon. If you were to have the Rocky Helmet attached instead, the Rocky Helment does NOT effect self damage in any way because there is no errattum for this card and the text on the card reads: "is damaged by an opponent's attack" and self damage is not effected because of the inclusion of the text "opponent's attack". Zekrom with Rocky Helmet, one plus Power and a Defender takes 40 + 10 - 20 = 30 damage. Gia Power takes 20 + 10 - 20 = 10 damage. Rocky Helmet yields an additional 2 damage counters upon the opponent only.
Black Belt has no published errata, but with Zekrom, it seems to have a style of play. Unlike Rocky Helmet, the text says "your Active Pokémon's attacks" and that would seem to include it in the self-damage, however it continues the sentence with "to your opponent's Active Pokémon" and this would seem to preclude the damage to YOUR Active Pokémon. The other cards involved have received specific erratum where the wording has been changed to accommodate self damage (eg: Defender, which changed from "by an opponent's attack" to "by attacks" so that the inclusion in self-damage was clear). Black Belt has no such errata - seemingly because Pokemon is satisfied with how it reads. Therefore, Black Belt with an Eviolite, a Plus Power and a Defender is to self-damage the exact same as not having the Black Belt at all: Zekrom takes 40 - 20 + 10 - 20 for 10 damage inflicted upon himself. Regigigas EX takes 20 - 20 + 10 - 20 = -10 damage which means he takes 0 damage. The opponent takes the only additional damage.
SO --- SETTLE THE DEBATE:
Where is this wrong, if anywhere, and if so - what exactly is the mechanic that makes it wrong?
Here are the Pokémon involved in the debate:
Zekrom (Bolt Strike) -- "This Pokémon does 40 damage to itself."
Regigigas EX (Gia Power) -- "You may do 20 more damage. If you do, this Pokémon does 20 damage to
itself."
Obviously both have self-damage and have nearly identical wording regarding that. We agree that there is virtually no difference between them for how damage is calculated because self damage is outside of resistance and weakness. There is debate on when to stop calculating damage because of step 2 of the rulebook where it says "stop if the base damage is 0" and the order that the trainers and supporters are applied can result in 0 before other trainers and supporters are calculated into the mix. I think that ALL effects by all trainers and supporters need to be calulated in and then the check for 0 (or less) is performed only once all the effects are tallied.
Here are the Trainers and Supporters involved as erratum is applied:
Eviolite -- "If the Pokémon this card is attached to is a Basic Pokémon, any damage done to this Pokémon by attacks is reduced by 20 (after applying Weakness and Resistance)."
Plus Power -- "During this turn your Pokémon's attacks do 10 more damage to the Active Pokémon (before Weakness and Resistance)."
Defender -- "Attach Defender to 1 of your Pokémon. Discard this card at the end of your opponent’s next turn. Any damage done to the Pokémon Defender is attached to by attacks is reduced by 20 (after applying Weakness and Resistance)."
Rocky Helmet -- "If the Pokémon this card is attached to is your Active Pokémon and is damaged by an opponent's attack (even if that Pokémon is Knocked Out), put 2 damage counters on the Attacking Pokémon."
Black Belt -- "During this turn, each of your Active Pokémon's attacks does 40 more damage to your opponent's Active Pokémon (before applying Weakness and Resistance)."
Without giving up who thinks what, this is the upshot of the debate from both sides (please tell us where this goes south):
Weakness and Resistance is not part of the calculation for self-damage, but gives an indication of the order of application of effects only (before or after).
If Eviolite is attached, it reduces any damage done to the basic Pokémon by attacks from either player, so Bolt Strike's or Gia Power's self-damage would be reduced by 20.
Step 2 in the calculation of self damage is not checked yet because all effects of other Pokémon, Trainers and Supporters have not been completely calculated. If step 2 was checked prematurely here, Gia Power would calculate to zero and no self-damage would occur.
By the same logic as Eviolite, a Plus Power attached would increase the self-damage by 10. So an Eviolite and a Plus Power combined would yield a net adjustment of -10 damage - that is a Zekrom would take 40 - 20 + 10 = 30 damage. Gia Power does self-damage of 20 - 20 + 10 = 10 damage.
If a Defender was placed alongside the Pokémon, since it simply says "by attacks" which would also include self-damage attacks, another 20 is defended against. In our example so far, the Eviolite, Plus Power and a Defender would shake out this way: Zekrom takes 40 - 20 + 10 - 20 for 10 damage inflicted upon himself. Regigigas EX takes 20 - 20 + 10 - 20 = -10 damage which simply means he takes 0 damage upon himself (he does not heal 10).
Rocky Helment is a Tool just like Eviolite and as such only one can be present on a Pokémon. If you were to have the Rocky Helmet attached instead, the Rocky Helment does NOT effect self damage in any way because there is no errattum for this card and the text on the card reads: "is damaged by an opponent's attack" and self damage is not effected because of the inclusion of the text "opponent's attack". Zekrom with Rocky Helmet, one plus Power and a Defender takes 40 + 10 - 20 = 30 damage. Gia Power takes 20 + 10 - 20 = 10 damage. Rocky Helmet yields an additional 2 damage counters upon the opponent only.
Black Belt has no published errata, but with Zekrom, it seems to have a style of play. Unlike Rocky Helmet, the text says "your Active Pokémon's attacks" and that would seem to include it in the self-damage, however it continues the sentence with "to your opponent's Active Pokémon" and this would seem to preclude the damage to YOUR Active Pokémon. The other cards involved have received specific erratum where the wording has been changed to accommodate self damage (eg: Defender, which changed from "by an opponent's attack" to "by attacks" so that the inclusion in self-damage was clear). Black Belt has no such errata - seemingly because Pokemon is satisfied with how it reads. Therefore, Black Belt with an Eviolite, a Plus Power and a Defender is to self-damage the exact same as not having the Black Belt at all: Zekrom takes 40 - 20 + 10 - 20 for 10 damage inflicted upon himself. Regigigas EX takes 20 - 20 + 10 - 20 = -10 damage which means he takes 0 damage. The opponent takes the only additional damage.
SO --- SETTLE THE DEBATE:
Where is this wrong, if anywhere, and if so - what exactly is the mechanic that makes it wrong?
