Chaos Gym and "Playing" Supporters

[Kooper Koushiro]

Chaos Gym is in my cube and gets drafted quite frequently. Of course when the card was printed, Supporter cards didn't exist, but as a pre-Diamond & Pearl card the 'Trainer' reference should include Trainer--Supporters.
The verbiage on Supporters has consistently been that you "may play only one Supporter each turn". However Chaos Gym states that on tails, "the player can't play that card."
That leads me to believe that since the card could not be played, it wasn't considered played in the game state. (Some effects may happen anyway due the effect being used, such as if the card was Misty's Duel or N.) Therefore, the player could attempt to play another Supporter in the same turn, as Chaos Gym making it fail did not "use up" their Supporter for turn.

Side note: Pre-BW Supporters were 'put in play' by your Active and so wouldn't be eligible for opponent's use, but since my cube includes BW-on supporters we treat them the same as modern supporters to keep things lined up. Irrelevant to the question at hand, though.

Asking here since I doubt there would be any "official" ruling on an old card interaction. The closest I found in Compendium was in regard to the old Gym Challenge Blaine Trainer card that allowed extra energy attachment.

-Kooper, who omitted Neo Genesis Slowking from the cube, but is pretty sure failing a Supporter due to Mind Games would use up your Supporter for turn.

 

[ShadowCard]

I don't see where your question is so I don't completely understand your post. The interaction between Chaos Gym and Supporter cards is in the Compendium. Your comment in italics appears to be incorrect.

Q. If Chaos Gym is in play, how do we handle using supporters? If I flip tails, does my opponent get a chance to use it or not?
A. Ok, supporters are basically normal Trainer cards with a limit built in (can only play 1 per turn). If you flip tails with Chaos Gym (after playing a supporter), your opponent can choose to use it if they want. That supporter would get placed down on the table as normal (near their active) and then would be discarded as normal at the end of your turn. Since YOU did not succesfully play a Supporter, you could try to play another one. This is just like Professor Elm and Chaos Gym in this sense. If you try a second one and it fails again your opponent could NOT use this second one as they are only allowed to use 1 per turn. Same as for Professor Elm. The only tricky part is that you need to remember to discard that supporter back into YOUR discard pile at the end of your turn. (Oct 10, 2002 WotC Chat, Q115)

From this, on a tails flip, if the opponent chooses to use the supporter, the supporter goes into play next to the opponent's active pokemon and then the opponent performs the supporter's effect. The player may then attempt to play another Supporter.

For Post-BW Supporters, I don't see why they wouldn't be treated the same way. However, cards with restrictions did exist so from those you can infer the same:

Q. If Chaos Gym is active and I try to play Prof. Elm but flip tails, if the opponent chooses to use it can I continue to play trainers during my turn? And will the opponent be allowed to play trainers when their turn comes around?
A. You could still try and play trainers. Your opponent would NOT be able to play any more trainers on your turn (meaning if you fail a Chaos flip again, they would NOT be able to use them). He or she could use them normally on their next turn. (Jan 11, 2001 WotC Chat, Q21 & Q90)

Shuffle your hand into your deck. Then, draw 7 cards. You can't play any more Trainer cards this turn.

This means that it doesn't matter if the Supporter is pre or post BW. The answer is the same.

 

[Kooper Koushiro]

I'm not sure how I glanced over that. Thank you! Also answered my question on who discards for Computer Search on a failed Chaos Gym flip (which was "both"). The wording is different, but I would think Ultra Ball's discard is a cost as well despite lacking the old "in order to" wording.
I do wonder how that worked with Pokémon Trader (and Pokémon Communication by extension). Would the turn player just lose the Pokémon traded in? Somewhere there's a line between a cost to play the card and an effect of the card, which is important.

I'm curious about the ruling of old Supporters being usable too. Obviously they came later, but cards with the Detour attack (Magby TRR and Jirachi RR) specifically reference Supporter cards being "in play". So Chaos Gym wouldn't consider them (put) "in play" but Detour does? Seems weird to have different definitions of "in play", but maybe there's a translation difference between WotC and TPCi.

-Kooper

 

[ShadowCard]

The reason I don't like playing cards before Expedition is because the rulings on them are weird. It was also so long ago and the rulings not as well known that people remember made up rules.

Re: Cost vs effect
In the time of Base-Skyridge, you can interpret almost anything restrictive as a "cost" but the clearest rule that continues to be applied today is that a discard on a trainer is a cost. Besides in Team MultiPlayer, the significance is that you 1) cannot avoid costs and 2) costs are not effects so they fail the "can't play a card for no effect" rule.

In the understanding of costs, you know that Ultra Ball's discard is a cost because 1) it is a discard on a trainer and 2) discarding the 2 cards is not enough to pass the rule "you cannot play a trainer for no effect" because you can't play it to search a o card deck. Taking that further, Junk Arm's discard is a cost because, if there are no items in your discard pile, you cannot play it because it isn't obvious at the time of play that you would get an effect out of it.

Re Pokemon Trader:

Q. I use Pokémon Trader to search for a Pokémon, but there are none left. Do I put the card in anyway? Do I just pretend that I didnt play the card (since its requirements can't be fulfilled) or do I discard Pokémon trader? Would the answer be the same if there were 0 cards in my deck left?
A. The card says to 'trade', if you can't do that don't put the card from your hand into your deck. You could still play the Trainer BUT you would NOT be able to trade so you would NOT put a Pokémon from your hand into your deck. (Nov 16, 2000 WotC Chat, Q142 & Q143)

Q. If I use Pokémon Trader or Energy Search and there aren't any Pokémon or Energy in my deck, do I have to show my deck to my opponent? If there isn't any in my deck, do I get to put the Pokémon Trader or Energy Search back in my hand either?
A. You don't have to show your deck and you don't put the trainer back in your hand [Ed. note: It goes into the discard pile]. (August 17, 2000 WotC Chat Q80)

Pokemon Trader, Energy Retrieval, and Super Energy Retrieval do not work the same way that Pokemon Communication does. The first three "trade" cards. You cannot use them if it is not obvious at the time you play the card that two sets of cards are not swapping places/fields at the same time. Pokemon Communication and Energy Exchanger work by having one card change fields AND THEN a second card changes fields. In that way, they follow the "do as much as you can" rule.

Re: Supporter "in play"
Not only does Chaos Gym not consider supporters "in play" but the entire philosophy on supporter rulings considers them not in play. Placing them next to the active was a game state marker. Just a visual reminder that you played a supporter that turn. I think the Detour wording is just the translator looking for a way to articulate the intent of the card.

 

[CrocGG]

I think Kooper's confusion between the lines -correct me if I'm wrong- is if the rules of costs in Pokemon TCG are the same as the rules of costs of Yugioh: in Yugioh in order to activate a card or an effect, sometimes you have a cost which must be paid, even if your opponent "negates" the effect. In the similar Chaos Gym scenario of flipping Tails, is the player obliged to pay the trainer's cost even if he doesn't get to use its effects at all?

 

[PokePop]

I think Kooper's confusion between the lines -correct me if I'm wrong- is if the rules of costs in Pokemon TCG are the same as the rules of costs of Yugioh: in Yugioh in order to activate a card or an effect, sometimes you have a cost which must be paid, even if your opponent "negates" the effect. In the similar Chaos Gym scenario of flipping Tails, is the player obliged to pay the trainer's cost even if he doesn't get to use its effects at all?

There's a ruling on that:

Q. If I attempt to play a card that requires a discard cost (Computer Search, Item Finder, etc.) and Chaos Gym is active, do I have to pay the cost *before* the Chaos Gym test? And if I fail, does the opponent have to pay the cost too if they want to use it?
A. Yes and yes. (Dec 12, 2002 WotC Chat, Q106)