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Lol you sorely overestimate theory versus reality.
2011-1-31 CL Lost Remover 080
- Thread starter MrMeches
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Lol you sorely overestimate theory versus reality.
PokemonFTW
New Member
I think some people were disappointed by this card because they thought based on the name that it was something that would remove cards from their Lost Zone. Instead, it's a permanent energy removal for special energies. Of course, it totally destroys my turbo Kecleon deck, but it has some effect on real competitive decks. However, it ultimately depends on what your opponent is playing moreso than what you are playing, so judge your metagame carefully.
ShadowGuard
<a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=
As already pointed out, the card doesn't help against the current metagame.
It's good agains:
- Machamp
- Scizor
- Tyranitar
- Steelix
- etc
all of them are cool stage 2 decks that are weakened by the release of the cards. Too sad.
But let's look how this card works against the "decks to beat".
Gyarados
-> can get rid of Rescue Energy, but doesn't help that much - because if you play Lost Remover, you don't have trainer lock and they have Pokémon rescue. It doesn't put the opponent behind in energy cause Gyarados doesn't need energy. In this matchup, it's a simple one-to-one card trade where the opponent decides when it can even happen - extremely bad, given that you need so many better cards in current decks.
Vilegar
-> hm, trainer lock... seems like a completely bad card as long as Vileplume is out.
Luxchomp
-> DCE is discarded immediately most times, exspecially if the opponent knows that you play Lost Remover. The energy that stays at the Pokémon is basic energy most times (Luxray, protecting Garchomp against Ambipom etc). It can help in rare situations, but there are many cards that help more against Luxchomp.
Lostgar
-> completely useless, cause they only need Psychic Energy to lost zone something. Well, against some versions you can get rid of Rescue Energy, but that's a one-one trade like vs Gyarados again.
Sablelock
-> uhm... well, Garchomp discards energy immediately, but sometimes you can get rid of a DCE or special darkness. Can be useful, but more consistancy is definitely better here.
Dialgachomp
-> This is the only tier 1 deck where the card can be decent against. It can hit an energy most times and bring the opponent back one attachment.
To conclude - against any tier 1 deck except for Dialgachomp, a good player would play other cards over Lost Remover. More consistancy, Lost World counters, almost everything is better than this. In some matchups its completely useless, in some it helps a bit... but well, Potion helps a bit in any matchup (except for Lostgar).
3/10
It's good agains:
- Machamp
- Scizor
- Tyranitar
- Steelix
- etc
all of them are cool stage 2 decks that are weakened by the release of the cards. Too sad.
But let's look how this card works against the "decks to beat".
Gyarados
-> can get rid of Rescue Energy, but doesn't help that much - because if you play Lost Remover, you don't have trainer lock and they have Pokémon rescue. It doesn't put the opponent behind in energy cause Gyarados doesn't need energy. In this matchup, it's a simple one-to-one card trade where the opponent decides when it can even happen - extremely bad, given that you need so many better cards in current decks.
Vilegar
-> hm, trainer lock... seems like a completely bad card as long as Vileplume is out.
Luxchomp
-> DCE is discarded immediately most times, exspecially if the opponent knows that you play Lost Remover. The energy that stays at the Pokémon is basic energy most times (Luxray, protecting Garchomp against Ambipom etc). It can help in rare situations, but there are many cards that help more against Luxchomp.
Lostgar
-> completely useless, cause they only need Psychic Energy to lost zone something. Well, against some versions you can get rid of Rescue Energy, but that's a one-one trade like vs Gyarados again.
Sablelock
-> uhm... well, Garchomp discards energy immediately, but sometimes you can get rid of a DCE or special darkness. Can be useful, but more consistancy is definitely better here.
Dialgachomp
-> This is the only tier 1 deck where the card can be decent against. It can hit an energy most times and bring the opponent back one attachment.
To conclude - against any tier 1 deck except for Dialgachomp, a good player would play other cards over Lost Remover. More consistancy, Lost World counters, almost everything is better than this. In some matchups its completely useless, in some it helps a bit... but well, Potion helps a bit in any matchup (except for Lostgar).
3/10
WavestripeMcKe
New Member
Good against SP decks. 7/10
SLOW DECK
New Member
I agree with people that it really isn't going to be a sucessful "Staple" in the current Meta-game.
You might have 1 as tech. If you have 4 as tech and run against a deck that doesn't level special out there, you would be sitting on that card all game.
As all these low energy attackers go away in the next format. (IE No SP), then this card becomes boss again. Thus don't give them away.
Current Meta 4/10
Futher Meta 7/10
You might have 1 as tech. If you have 4 as tech and run against a deck that doesn't level special out there, you would be sitting on that card all game.
As all these low energy attackers go away in the next format. (IE No SP), then this card becomes boss again. Thus don't give them away.
Current Meta 4/10
Futher Meta 7/10
MrMeches
New Member
Considering many have been discussing DialgaChomp as a decent counter against the mythical LostGar, this card might be an interesting choice! Tag those Special Metal Energy if they release the Deafen Lock. Also, this can help against those Warp Energy. If they can't Seeker that when it is played, it tends to sit until they need it again.... this beauty can get rid of it quickly.
An interesting play for sure. Even though many think not so many Special are played, there is:
Call = Most SP players use this as a way to get the Dragon Rush when the DCE isn't available. Spiritomb players play Call to help get the setup going.
Warp Energy = Gyarados Staple and often Seeker picks it back up. Many players using Uxie X use this to get it out of the Active if the Unown Q option is gone.
DCE = SP, Tyranitar, Machamp Staple. SP Players often do not put these down before they need to, but it does happen... why give them the opportunity. TTar RELIES on this to get going asap!
Special Metal / Dark = Dialga, Steelix, TTar, Gengar Counters will be using these. Metal in Dialga is usually only 2, but the reduction is amazing when being turned so frequently. Dark is a Staple in TTar and also in Sableye Decks. Reduce that +10 availability!
Rescue = Various decks use Rescue so getting those out of the way before being able to use it could be critical to slow down the recycle.
So as you can see, a lot of Special out there..... might be an interesting tester for decks!
Fish
An interesting play for sure. Even though many think not so many Special are played, there is:
Call = Most SP players use this as a way to get the Dragon Rush when the DCE isn't available. Spiritomb players play Call to help get the setup going.
Warp Energy = Gyarados Staple and often Seeker picks it back up. Many players using Uxie X use this to get it out of the Active if the Unown Q option is gone.
DCE = SP, Tyranitar, Machamp Staple. SP Players often do not put these down before they need to, but it does happen... why give them the opportunity. TTar RELIES on this to get going asap!
Special Metal / Dark = Dialga, Steelix, TTar, Gengar Counters will be using these. Metal in Dialga is usually only 2, but the reduction is amazing when being turned so frequently. Dark is a Staple in TTar and also in Sableye Decks. Reduce that +10 availability!
Rescue = Various decks use Rescue so getting those out of the way before being able to use it could be critical to slow down the recycle.
So as you can see, a lot of Special out there..... might be an interesting tester for decks!
Fish
EeveeEvolution
New Member
Don't forget about the seldom Jumpluff decks that run a single Rainbow Energy for Luxray GL. I ran a variant of Sablelock a few months ago before the set rotation and I ruined Brad B. in a free game by offing the only Multi-Energy in his Jumpluff by leveling-up Absol G. Exiling cards is good, even if your opponent isn't getting them back regardless.
And even if it isn't that good, you could use it as Junk Arm fodder. It's so easy nowadays to tech a DGX just to get past VileGar and even Scizor/Umbreon variants with Espeon prime.
And even if it isn't that good, you could use it as Junk Arm fodder. It's so easy nowadays to tech a DGX just to get past VileGar and even Scizor/Umbreon variants with Espeon prime.
Otaku
Active Member
I was so worried when I saw Lost Remover. Why? Because as I often struggle to avoid, I was thinking in the past. There are many formats where this would have been a good, if not great card. Getting my head into the now, I think it is something almost paradoxical in nature: a good card in a bad format. Sounds like an excuse, right? Read on for a little more depth.
Lost Remover is a normal Trainer. This makes it incredibly easy to play (from a resource standpoint) and you'll still have access to your oh-so-important Supporter usage for the turn. This is important both for capitalizing on the end result or drawing into it in the first place. The card's text states that you may put one Special Energy attached to one of your opponent's Pokemon and send it to the Lost Zone. For a second, forget this specific format and think about it in general terms. First, you're trading a resource that only requires it be in hand to play (Trainer) for something that can normally only be played once per turn (Energy). Special Energy cards rarely make up much of a decks resources, but the decks that do run a lot are even more reliant on them than a normal deck is on Basic Energy cards. Special Energy cards are difficult to recycle under normal circumstances, but even if there is nothing good at it right now there have been such cards in the past, therefore this is a nice but not especially significant bonus; the icing on the cake, as it were.
I will draw attention to the fact that it can hit any of your opponent's Pokemon, as this is quite important: cards that used to be safe to energize on the Bench simply aren't anymore. It has always been dangerous enough for a Pokemon because no format has been entirely lacking in ways to force something on the Bench into the Active slot, and standard operating procedure is to attach general (usually Basic) Energy to a Benched Pokemon first and only attach needed Special Energy cards when it becomes Active. Still, the option to hit the Bench is nice and just adds to hitting the Active. Besides, sometimes you'll want to send an Active to the Bench and by doing this and stripping it of Energy, you greatly inconvenience your opponent: who want's to re-energize a half-KO'd Pokemon? Taking a Prize sooner rather than later is better, but it also isn't always an option.
Now let us begin to filter it through the actual formats. At a serious Modified event, deck space is tight and the impression I get is that you have a lot of speedy, hard hitting decks, or face the dreaded "Trainer Lock" strategy. Most decks run Special Energy, but by the time you are able to tag it with Lost Remover, such decks will have made use of that Energy. Your opponent will already have attacked once with Call Energy, Benched something with Warp Energy, and so on. Even if someone is using Double Colorless Energy, they've still gotten one attack out of it. One of the reasons I haven't done much this format is because as far as I can tell, it is that fast: one attack is usually all that is needed, and for most decks this is an annoyance. So most decks are too fast for the effect to matter, or will block it via a Trainer-lock strategy if they are of a slower set up.
In Limited Play, skip it because the only targets this set are the classic Special Energy versions of Darkness Energy and Metal Energy, which means unless I missed a Common card with a killer combo that uses any Special Energy, most players won't have any Special Energy to remove. Even if you do face off against a Darkness or Metal deck, in this format the Special Energy shouldn't be critical to their set-up because said opponent will know going in they only have one or two copies and lack an easy way to consistently get it into play.
I was tempted to dismiss this for Unlimited play, because we've already got Energy Removal and Super Energy Removal. Why restrict yourself to Special Energy cards when you've got a Trainer that can discard any Energy or any two Energy as long as you discard one of your own Energy cards? Then I remembered Recycle Energy! Unless the Unlimited format has radically shifted, a significant number of rogue and archetypal decks will want to use Recycle Energy, and most decks will be quite low on Basic Energy. In short, if it isn't something like a Rain Dance deck that intentionally abuses Basic Energy cards, Unlimited decks are mostly powered by things like Double Colorless Energy, Double Rainbow Energy, Rainbow Energy, and Recycle Energy. Said decks don't run much Energy to begin with, so while there might only be 12 Energy and four of it end up as Basic Energy, changing over one or two normal Energy Removal to Lost Remover sounds like a safe bet. Against most decks, you won't lose any utility because again, they are running Special Energy cards you can target or Basic Energy cards they can easily recycle and re-attach.
Ratings
Unlimited: 8/10 - Kills Recycle Energy, plus this is the format where reclaiming a discarded Special Energy is easiest. All while losing almost no utility due to standard deck composition. To top it off, most decks will be able to TecH in one in place of an Energy Removal and just use Item Finder to reclaim it if it is worth using again.
Modified: 5.5/10 - I am still tempted to squeeze a single copy into a lot of decks, just because the times when you want it you need it, but it will be a dead draw far too often to run anymore.
Limited: 1.5/10 - If you just need a card to make 39 into 40, it beats an unsupported Evolution.
Summary
I have to emphasize that this format is one of the worst Modified formats for Lost Remover to exist in, and that you should be taking advantage of this time to snag four copies for next format, or in case of a radical shift in the established order. Definitely test it out because reliably removing Special Energy cards looks so good on paper. If you're playing Unlimited, definitely snag a full play set because you really should be including one or two in your default deck build, and might find four useful depending on your local metagame.
Lost Remover is a normal Trainer. This makes it incredibly easy to play (from a resource standpoint) and you'll still have access to your oh-so-important Supporter usage for the turn. This is important both for capitalizing on the end result or drawing into it in the first place. The card's text states that you may put one Special Energy attached to one of your opponent's Pokemon and send it to the Lost Zone. For a second, forget this specific format and think about it in general terms. First, you're trading a resource that only requires it be in hand to play (Trainer) for something that can normally only be played once per turn (Energy). Special Energy cards rarely make up much of a decks resources, but the decks that do run a lot are even more reliant on them than a normal deck is on Basic Energy cards. Special Energy cards are difficult to recycle under normal circumstances, but even if there is nothing good at it right now there have been such cards in the past, therefore this is a nice but not especially significant bonus; the icing on the cake, as it were.
I will draw attention to the fact that it can hit any of your opponent's Pokemon, as this is quite important: cards that used to be safe to energize on the Bench simply aren't anymore. It has always been dangerous enough for a Pokemon because no format has been entirely lacking in ways to force something on the Bench into the Active slot, and standard operating procedure is to attach general (usually Basic) Energy to a Benched Pokemon first and only attach needed Special Energy cards when it becomes Active. Still, the option to hit the Bench is nice and just adds to hitting the Active. Besides, sometimes you'll want to send an Active to the Bench and by doing this and stripping it of Energy, you greatly inconvenience your opponent: who want's to re-energize a half-KO'd Pokemon? Taking a Prize sooner rather than later is better, but it also isn't always an option.
Now let us begin to filter it through the actual formats. At a serious Modified event, deck space is tight and the impression I get is that you have a lot of speedy, hard hitting decks, or face the dreaded "Trainer Lock" strategy. Most decks run Special Energy, but by the time you are able to tag it with Lost Remover, such decks will have made use of that Energy. Your opponent will already have attacked once with Call Energy, Benched something with Warp Energy, and so on. Even if someone is using Double Colorless Energy, they've still gotten one attack out of it. One of the reasons I haven't done much this format is because as far as I can tell, it is that fast: one attack is usually all that is needed, and for most decks this is an annoyance. So most decks are too fast for the effect to matter, or will block it via a Trainer-lock strategy if they are of a slower set up.
In Limited Play, skip it because the only targets this set are the classic Special Energy versions of Darkness Energy and Metal Energy, which means unless I missed a Common card with a killer combo that uses any Special Energy, most players won't have any Special Energy to remove. Even if you do face off against a Darkness or Metal deck, in this format the Special Energy shouldn't be critical to their set-up because said opponent will know going in they only have one or two copies and lack an easy way to consistently get it into play.
I was tempted to dismiss this for Unlimited play, because we've already got Energy Removal and Super Energy Removal. Why restrict yourself to Special Energy cards when you've got a Trainer that can discard any Energy or any two Energy as long as you discard one of your own Energy cards? Then I remembered Recycle Energy! Unless the Unlimited format has radically shifted, a significant number of rogue and archetypal decks will want to use Recycle Energy, and most decks will be quite low on Basic Energy. In short, if it isn't something like a Rain Dance deck that intentionally abuses Basic Energy cards, Unlimited decks are mostly powered by things like Double Colorless Energy, Double Rainbow Energy, Rainbow Energy, and Recycle Energy. Said decks don't run much Energy to begin with, so while there might only be 12 Energy and four of it end up as Basic Energy, changing over one or two normal Energy Removal to Lost Remover sounds like a safe bet. Against most decks, you won't lose any utility because again, they are running Special Energy cards you can target or Basic Energy cards they can easily recycle and re-attach.
Ratings
Unlimited: 8/10 - Kills Recycle Energy, plus this is the format where reclaiming a discarded Special Energy is easiest. All while losing almost no utility due to standard deck composition. To top it off, most decks will be able to TecH in one in place of an Energy Removal and just use Item Finder to reclaim it if it is worth using again.
Modified: 5.5/10 - I am still tempted to squeeze a single copy into a lot of decks, just because the times when you want it you need it, but it will be a dead draw far too often to run anymore.
Limited: 1.5/10 - If you just need a card to make 39 into 40, it beats an unsupported Evolution.
Summary
I have to emphasize that this format is one of the worst Modified formats for Lost Remover to exist in, and that you should be taking advantage of this time to snag four copies for next format, or in case of a radical shift in the established order. Definitely test it out because reliably removing Special Energy cards looks so good on paper. If you're playing Unlimited, definitely snag a full play set because you really should be including one or two in your default deck build, and might find four useful depending on your local metagame.
For those of you saiyan that a good SP player will never leave a DCE on the field and end their turn, you must think that good SP players dont play Dragonite FB or Ambipom G. If you haven't noticed, those do NOT discard it. In addition people would attach it to GARCHOMP C Lv. X to use EQ after a Dragon Rush, to KO a possible defending Garchomp C or Dragonite FB. Seriously guys, think things through before making vague claims...
Also, besides DCE there are other special energies in the meta today, like Rescue, Warp, Cyclone, Call, Special Metal, and in some cases, Rainbow.
So I'd give this card a 7.5/10
Also, besides DCE there are other special energies in the meta today, like Rescue, Warp, Cyclone, Call, Special Metal, and in some cases, Rainbow.
So I'd give this card a 7.5/10
louist200
New Member
Any competent sp player will never lay down a DCE without using it. Outside of the rare dce on dnite preemptively. If you need the remover to beat the players that will lay DCE early then maybe you don't need to look at the deck list so much as the pilot.
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