A Fantastic card that would help bring the Balance back into the Unlimited Format

Discussion in 'TCG News & Gossip Discussion' started by Prof. Douglas Zuver, Sep 7, 2003.

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  1. Prof. Douglas Zuver

    Prof. Douglas Zuver New Member

    Take a very good look at this card:

    "Trainer
    Brock’s Protection
    Attach Brock’s Protection to 1 of your Pokémon with Brock in its name. Energy cards attached to that Pokémon can’t be removed by your opponent’s attacks or Trainer cards. (This doesn’t stop the rest of the attack or Trainer card from working normally.)"

    The Pokemon Company could easily reprint this same card
    WITHOUT the words "with Brock in its name" and give the
    card any new title that makes them happy.
    The card should NOT become a Pokemon Tool.

    Notice the new rule changes being brought about by
    The Pokemon Company in the Ruby & Sapphire Rule Book.
    These new rules are designed to bring the Balance back into
    the Unlimited Format. Now we need a few carefully
    worded counter cards to help out.
     
  2. Tyranitar666

    Tyranitar666 New Member

    Well, I do think that would help balance Unlimited, but imagine it on Sneasel. Or on a Scizor or Steelix. It helps alot but makes things bad too. Id rather see it be worded as such...


    Attach Protection to one of your Evolution Pokemon in play. While this card is attached, all basic energy cards attached to this Pokemon cannot be affected by other Trainer cards besides Protection.

    This prevents it from being used on BBPs, helps make Evolutions very viable, and prevents it from being used to abuse Steel pokemon very easily.
     
  3. Tego

    Tego New Member

    Three Slowkings and a Murkrow could still beat anything.
     
  4. Porygon3

    Porygon3 New Member

    There are attacks that discard trainer cards... and a Muk will kill the slowkings... bla bla...
     
  5. GuardianTIM

    GuardianTIM New Member

    Um, if you're worried about your energy being removed by trainers and attacks, there is a card called "No Removal Gym". I've got one in my Scizor/Beautifly deck. To play an Energy Removal or Super Energy Removal card, they have to discard 2 cards from their hand...

    I wouldn't mind a reprint of that card where it says "a trainer card with Energy Removal in it's name" instead of it's current wording, as they've made ER2/SER2, but it does well enough for me.
     
  6. Tego

    Tego New Member

    But again, against a Slowking deck, they will play a counter gym, discard your No Removal Gym and then prevent you from ever bringing it into play again with their Slowkings.
     
  7. Prof. Douglas Zuver

    Prof. Douglas Zuver New Member

    :thumb::thumb:
     
  8. Tyranitar666

    Tyranitar666 New Member

    Ok, Im gonna be slightly rude here and say that most comments made here are ludicrious. First off, No ER Gym is a HORRIBLE card. ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE. Every deck runs gyms to counter it and enough manipulation to use it whenever you want to.

    Slowking is VERY good, BUT almost every deck now runs anti slowking cards. Pichus, Magby, Igglybuff, Muk, all essential to any deck. You must run one of these to beat Slowking, yet unfortunately for Slowking, everyone DOES. So yes, Slowking is a top deck. The best? MAYBE. Prolly not. Also, Murkrow Slowking no longer is as good as it used to be, due to Warp NRG, and the inclusion of Furret into alot of strong decks in, as it lets you search for it, so that garunteed Krow Lock grew much weaker. Running 3 Sneasel and 1-2 Murkrows for back up is simply much stronger now.
     
  9. Baboon

    Baboon New Member

    I know! Chaos Gym! XD I usually use Chaos in place of No Removal, even though it sounds strange. Once someone gets set up and is ready, Chaos won't affect you all *that* much. Ecogym doesn't protect (*) Energy, and No Removal is almost a joke in Unlimited.

    One revision I'd make to Protection is include a limit. Possibly only allow it to be attached for 2 of your turns. Less than broken, but more than useless. Also, the Evolutions only idea works, as they're the most prone to SER's...
    We may be onto something. ;)
     
  10. degenerate91

    degenerate91 New Member

    Actually, that would be fairly useless. But the evolution idea is a good one... Unlimited isn't as bad as everyone believes, and that would go a long way towards balancing it.
     
  11. Tyranitar666

    Tyranitar666 New Member

    Unlimited is actually an AMAZING " Format ". MUCH better and more fun than any of the Modifieds. Having it have a turn limit would not work, too many people could just cheat on how many turns it is attached and it is impossible to rule on it.

    Chaos Gym is MUCH more effective than No ER Gym, and Eco Gym is good too. Lass and Slowking are better ER disrupters tho, especially if used well. BUT, basically, never consider any method of stopping ER to be effective, as any deck running 3-3 or 4-4 runs so many ways to counter ur counters that it will still be pushed through. That means evolutions with ER protection really do not work still.
     
  12. Kyfogre22

    Kyfogre22 New Member

    i have been out of the TCG for awhile... and err one question, what u guys talking about unlimited?
     
  13. dkates

    dkates New Member

    Unlimited allows all cards except Ancient Mew and "Birthday" Pikachu, regardless of set. It's also the only format I've ever played.
     
  14. FlygonChampion

    FlygonChampion New Member

    You've got to spend lots of moeny to be able to compete in Unlimited, to get those cards that you need. I don't like it. I don't think they'll ever make Trainer cards like that anymore unless it is a Poketool.
     
  15. Dendrobatida

    Dendrobatida New Member

    I'm not so sure No Removal Gym is a horrible card, Tyranitar666: by your own wording, "every deck runs gyms to counter it". Doesn't that mean players are taking it into account as a threat, particularly those who run heavy removal? If I'm playing a 4-4 ER/SER line, I'm fearing the no removal gym enough to use up deck space specifically to counter that one card. Sounds not-so-horrible to me. That's part of the brilliance of this game: everything can be countered; your deck is never totally safe. Wouldn't want a newer player who's having difficulty with more advanced ER/SER players at his or her league overlooking a viable solution to the problem because of one poster's vehemence against it. Back on topic, though, with Brock's Protection: I'm a fan of the card, and agree that it would add a new wrinkle to the game, though I'd tend to agree with T666 in that the first people to take advantage would be the sneaselites out there. My favorite part of the wording of the card, which I'd like to see remain, is the text in parentheses, because it forces your opponent to think that much harder about the game. To wit, in an early unlimited tournament I played in, in which I used a gengar/brock's golbat deck with brock's protection, an opponent used SER against my fully-powered golbat (psychic + DCE). He forgot that the protection was on there, so he simply re-attached the electric to his 'buzz and put the SER back in his hand. I called over the judge, showed him that parenthetical text (all other effects of the trainer still occur), and sure enough, he had to discard the trainer and the energy off his own 'buzz, because Brock's protection doesn't prevent the rest of the trainer card from working normally. Fun, and a great way to keep opponents on their toes.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2003
  16. Tyranitar666

    Tyranitar666 New Member

    No, NO ER Gym is not one of the reasons why you run counter gyms. Ecogym, the vastly superior anti ER card, and Chaos Gym, and Sprout Tower are MUCH bigger threats. The same with Poke Tower, which can really screw you over. THOSE are why people run counter gyms. I mean, lets say you opt NOT to run any gyms. They play a No ER Gym. I discard 2 cards I do not need and use it anyways. Its not an IMPOSSIBLE feat to pull off, and the card TRULY only becomes effective late game or after a well placed, hand size reducing lass.
     
  17. Dendrobatida

    Dendrobatida New Member

    Oh, so when you said "every deck runs gyms to counter it", you didn't really mean, well, what you said...Have a bad experience with a no removal gym in your early childhood, perhaps?

    As much as the digression from Brock's protection to No Removal Gym threatens the original subject of this thread, I still think debating its usefulness sticks to the spirit of the post (curbing rampant use of energy removal in unlimited), so I'll fire back. First, I think that arguing that No Removal gym is easily countered by other gyms is not a viable reason to tell any player not to run the card, since it is no easier or more difficult to counter than any other gym. Whether it is better or worse at counteracting the effects of ER and SER is largely up to the player or the environment in which he/she finds him/herself playing the game. The player has the choice of:

    1. NR gym: changing a 1-1 and a 2-2 card tradeoff (Energy removal discarded - opponent's energy discarded)/(Super energy removal discarded, energy discarded - two energy discarded) to a 3-1 and a 4-2 tradeoff. If you're the type of player who prefers a card advantage over your opponent, this is probably the gym for you. Sure, the user of the ER gets to pick the cards discarded, but in my deckbuilding experience, I like to pack my deck with 60 cards I'll find useful, rather than, say, 40 cards I find useful and 20 that I don't mind discarding on a whim (Yeah, thank god I'm playing these Charities and shellders in my deck for discarding purposes!). When my NR gym is in play, then, every time I'm ER'ed or SER'ed, I'm assured of taking a few of my opponent's useful cards along with it.

    2. Ecogym: I'm not so sure this is a "vastly superior" card to No Removal Gym. Both have their good points, but a ranking of the two depends again on how you view the game. Ecogym will let you take the energies back to your hand; useful for energy that are difficult to retrieve from the discard. However, there are two ways you can view energy removal: it can be the elimination of a limited resource (energy), or the disruption of time flow (loss of one or two turns' worth of attaching energy). If you're trying to build up quickly, which seems to be one of the keys to winning this game, Ecogym will not help you much against ER and SER; that is, it will preserve the resource, but will not save your energy attachment from previous turns. No Removal Gym does more to protect your time spent and your resources, since it makes the opponent more wary of using the ER card in the first place. If there was a pokemon I could play with a power that said "you may choose to discard one energy from one of your pokemon in play. If you do, choose two cards at random from your opponent's hand and discard them" Or "You may choose to discard two energy cards from your pokemon in play. If you do, choose four cards at random from your opponent's hand and discard them", I'd consider playing that pokemon, or trainer, or gym, or whatever gave me that card advantage. No Removal Gym is essentially that card, though it does not allow me to choose when it's activated. For you resource conservationists, the card differential here boils down to [ER: 1-0], SER: [2-0]; that is, your opponent discards the first number, you discard the second. NR gym is [ER: 3-1], SER [4-2]. The resource advantage is still greater with NR gym. In addition, NR gym protects all your energies, particularly those precious DCE's, whereas Ecogym is limited in its ability to only protect those energies of color.

    3. Chaos Gym: More of a blanket solution, and one with significant drawback. It is a highly effective deterrent to ER and SER, but at the cost of reducing the usefulness of your own trainers to 50% as well. Its an excellent card, but as we all know, it is a fickle mistress at best. If you play few trainers and fear ER, this is your best friend. If you fear ER and play lots of gust, switch, goldberry, focus band, card draw, etc., then Chaos gym is probably not the best way of countering it. The same goes for Poke tower. It will eliminate the abuse of the recycle/SER (which alters the base cost of using SER from loss of 1 resource and 1 turn to loss of 1 turn only), and the continuous assault that is 4 ER, 4 SER, 4 Item Finder, but it doesn't cripple the basic ability of ER and SER to be effective slowdown and resource removing tools.

    In short, if you're a player who appreciates card advantage and providing a true penalty and deterrent to ER and SER, you might want to go No Removal Gym. If you care not about the number of turns it takes you to power up, as long as you retain your resources, go Ecogym. If you want to throw a wrench into play entirely, Chaos Gym is the arena for you. See? Depends on your style of play and preference, rather than the superiority of one card over another.

    Hope that helps, and cheers,
     
  18. Mob2099

    Mob2099 New Member

    my 2 cents on ser, er, sneasel:

    in allen texas we just had an unlimited tourny with nintendo rules.
    me and my son come in top 4 , but lost in in the draft.

    i played cards you all named to counter the cards above im my double gust steelix deck.

    but my sons was a little different but did just as great( i had to play him and almost lost.)
    his deck was this: r.zappy/sneak attack/shaman

    r.zappy is great againt nrg removal
    sneak attack great against ser, oak, trader
    shaman limits them even more

    other great support card for his deck
    narrow gym: anti sneasel
    scoop up: switch heal in one
    ser
    electabuzz
    recycle nrg

    it is a very fast deck that really doesnt use the stardard anti this that deck.

    just saying with a little thought and testing we will be able to find more and more stuff to fit into unlimited and work well.
    that should be the challenge instead of going with the same old stuff.
     
  19. Tyranitar666

    Tyranitar666 New Member

    Changing what I said? I think not. I believe you mistook what I originally said. I said that players run counter gyms to counter it. I said that all players run counter gyms, and thus meaning they have the ability to counter No ER Gym if it is played. I did NOT say all players run counter gyms specifically due to No ER Gym.

    The difference between No ER Gym and Ecogym are huge. No ER Gym is a POSSIBLE hinderance, and the player wanting to use an ER or SER have the option of discarding cards to play the effect anyways. Ecogym locks them down where they HAVE no way around it. The fact that the player can bypass the effects of the card with the most plentiful resource in the game ( cards, due to the INSANE draw power of Unlimited ) makes it near worthless. ( Again, after perhaps a Trapper combo, or a well timed Lass Eeeeeeek, it may be a bit better, but thats not a general use )

    Now you say that just because a card can be easily countered does not mean it is useless. Now, let me ask you something. You are facing a REALLY good opponent running a heavy ER deck. Do you trust your No ER Gym in there? If the player is any good, they have cards in there deck to stop No ER Gym. The card to counter it is in ALL decks nearly, as almost every deck runs 1-2 gyms, if not more. You KNOW they will have it. Why bother running a card that ONLY effects a card type that almost automatically can either bypass it by discarding a few cards or OOPS, drop a gym and SER you anyways? The gyms that counter No ER Gym will not go away if people dont run No ER Gym. they will ALWAYS be played. Its like saying the Trapper combo will win you a game because they have no cards, thinking " Oops. If they run Oaks or Cleffa, it doesnt matter because I lose. " Theres a difference in saying that they can run a counter to it, and the fact that the counter is considered to be a staple in Unlimited decks.

    Chaos Gym is strong as well, as it not only disrupts ER and SER, but their trainer engine as well, and if you can establish an advantage and drop a Chaos Gym, they are going to have a very hard time recovering.

    The only REAL way to stop ER now adays is Slowking though, and even that is easily countered. Luckily, Slowking has counters for whatever counters to it exist. Unfortunately, there really are no counters for the ability to drop a gym from your hand. That is where things differ.

    Let me ask you a question. You want to run Venusaur. You know you are going to face all decks with 4/4 ER and SER. Does No ER Gym help your deck stand a chance? No. What about running something like Steelix? Do you honestly think they will not just discard an extra Electabuzz and Electric NRG to get rid of TWO Metal NRGs off of Steelix? Same with a Sneasel? You and I both know they will, and it still hurts just as badly, without much impact on their performance. Keep in mind this is WORST case scenario. 90% of the games I play in Unlimited, I get stuck with extra basics in my hand, or trainers that do not apply to the current position. These are easily available to be discarded at any time.

    Now let me get into why Ecogym, which STILL does not stop ER and SER, is still the much better choice. First of all, I understand the advantage of costing them energy drops and making them waste turns of attacking. Now let me point out a few things here.

    Neither NO ER Gym or Ecogym do a THING to stop 4 NRG requirement pokemon such as stage 2s from being unplayable. Wether you run these cards or not does not help. Before you read further you need to understand that. Mainly because, as I said, these cards are so easily countered that you cannot consider them reliable enough. They also are not quick enough, and you waste 4 turns to attack, where as Basics can attack quickly. GOW also prevents it from working, as well as the fact that if the big guy goes down, you lose. Your left with 7 cards down the drain and hardly any way to fight back.

    Now that we realize this, we also notice that the major decks that benefit from cards like these gyms are Sneasel, Metal Chansey, Steelix, and the like. Now we look at which matters more. No ER Gym or Ecogym. No ER Gym will simply be bypassed and your NRG discarded and each one is an INCREDIBLE blow as they rely on non basic energy, which is a max of four per deck. Ecogym protects these vital energy, bringing them back to your hand where they can be used to either power up the same card, or power up a new sneasel/chansey/steelix. Now you point out that you cannot protect Chanseys colorless NRG. Recycles already come back, and dce cannot be helped. Metals come back anyways.

    Basically what I want to say is that NO ER Gym is the LEAST effective anti ER Gym available. Ecogym is RARELY worth the slot in a deck, as ANY deck would rather run ER and SER than anti ER SER, EVEN Sneasels and Steelix decks. Any GYM will never be effective at stopping ER. NEVER.
     
  20. Tyranitar666

    Tyranitar666 New Member

    And yes, I did have a bad experience involving No ER Gym as a kid. It was when I was trying to be convinced that it was worth ever adding into a deck and wasting a slot where a good card could be used -_-
     
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