A question about Core values

Discussion in 'Professor Forum' started by NoPoke, Oct 24, 2004.

  1. NoPoke

    NoPoke New Member

    Is it breaking the Core Values to schedule events so that potential players can't attend?

    How about holding events at venues that are not open to ALL members of the general public?

    Or specifying in advance who can and cannot attend?

    If a player turns up can you just turn them away?


    I don't want yes/no answers rather an exploration of operation in the grey region between black and white.

    thoughts please
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2004
  2. ukpokemonpro

    ukpokemonpro New Member

    In this case it would be the venue that would likely turn you away not the TO .. still holding it in a closed venue, not advertising it and specifying only one group of players allowed.. like just my league ... would seem to break the TO guidelines..

    Certainly official responses in the past have said closed venues and limiting it just to your league is not allowed!
  3. And it shouldn't be allowed. I believe the floor rules state quite specifically first of all that tournaments MUST be sanctioned in kid friendly public locations, and second of all, that tournaments are open to all players, excet for a few standard exceptions of course. Read the floor rules in this case.
  4. SteveP

    SteveP New Member

    The only legal way I know of restricting attendance is to hold multiple events simultaneously. Make players choose where they want to play.

    This is an interesting question. Some community centers only allow local members to use their facility. In those cases, could you hold tournaments at those community centers?

    While living in the DC area a few years ago, I attended one such community center to play organized Scrabble. So, I can imagine that although such restrictions seem contrary to OP rules, I'd say there could be exceptions. I good example would be tournaments held on military bases where you must have base-access privileges to get on base.
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2004
  5. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    Or, what if you wanted to hold a tournament for a Scout group.
    Could it be sanctioned if only Scouts (and parents) were playing?
  6. Adv1sor

    Adv1sor New Member

    The Tournament Organizer’s Handbook states,
    Bold added for emphasis.
  7. Michel

    Michel New Member

    Maybe not breaking the Core Values NoPoke, but a well known solution to have a better ranking for (some of) these players ;)

    From the 'Tournament Organizer Handbook' :

    'The tournament organizer is, in the end, responsible for all tournament operations and reporting for the event. The tournament organizer’s responsibilities are as follows:

    Selecting an Appropriate Tournament Venue
    The tournament organizer is responsible for selecting an event site that is safe and secure for children and adults, in a site available to the general public. Specifically, the tournament must take place in a well-lit location, with appropriate safety measures in place. Tournaments may not be held in private locations, such as a person’s house. Tournament organizers are encouraged to hold it in likely venues, such as a local game store or game conventions.

    Suspension of Tournament Organizer Privileges
    Pokémon Organized Play reserves the right to remove privileges of any tournament organizer sanctioned by the program.
    A tournament organizer who has been suspended for substantial delinquent tournaments or other reasons may contact tournaments@pokemon-tcg.com to appeal for re-instatement. '

    It seems very clear to me that :
    1 the TO is responsible
    2 the tournament must be run in a place open to the general public
    3 the TO may be suspended if he doesn't follow the rules.

    From the 'POP Floor Rules' :

    'Player Eligibility
    Anyone is allowed to participate in a Pokémon Organized Play sanctioned event, except for the following positions:
    • The tournament organizer for that event
    • Any judge assisting in the event
    • Corporate employees of The Pokémon Company and Pokémon USA, Inc.
    • Nintendo Corporate employees
    • Game Freak inc. employees
    • Creatures employees
    • Former employees of the above mentioned companies (until 60 days after their last day of employment)
    • Employees of companies who assist Pokémon USA, Inc, in promoting organized play in their country
    • Any player that has been suspended by Pokémon Organized Play
    • Special invitation-only tournaments, such as the Pokémon World Championships '

    This is very clear too ;)

    BTW, is a National an 'invatation-only tournament' ? I don't think so, and if it isn't, foreign players must be allowed to play :p

    These rules do exist and must be followed by every TO everywhere at any time ... otherwise, why would PUI publish rules ? :D
  8. Rainbowgym

    Rainbowgym New Member

    Nopoke - It's not against the Core Rules but against the Floor rules. (at least inside the US)

    I follow the international santioned tournaments and I know what direction you are going.
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2004
  9. SteveP

    SteveP New Member

    POP can allow certain restricted tournaments. The Worlds is one such example where participation is restricted.

    So, while the floor rules require "public" tournaments, POP might waive that requirement in certain situations as those mentioned above (military bases, community centers, scout events, etc). I'd contact POP.
  10. meganium45

    meganium45 New Member

    It was my understanding that you could not restrict an event without allowing an equivelant.

    For example - I am going to be running two (2) draft side events, both sanctioned.

    One will have an age restriction of 12-

    One will have no age restriction.

    That way, everyone who wants to participate can participate.

    I feel that younger players, especially new drafters are more comfortable drafting with other new players. Makes for a fun learning experience.

    Just my opinion. If I am breaking the rules - then so be it. It is the whole deal of the spirit of the rules at times versus the literal translation of the rules.

    I have the feeling this is not what this topic is aiming at...but wanted to state my opinion any way.

  11. SteveP

    SteveP New Member

    I see no problem. This is akin to holding an age-separated tournament, something COMPLETELY within the bounds of the rules. I always run my tournaments age-separated if we have at least 8 players in each age category.
  12. Prime

    Prime Content Developer<br>Blog Admin<br>Contest Host

    Tell me this, lets say there is this trouble-maker at a store, and shes banned. Two weeks later, there is a gym challenge there, does the store HAVE to let the girl back in to play? Or becuase she was previously banned mean that she can't participate?
  13. GymLeaderPhil

    GymLeaderPhil New Member

    No, the girl was banned from the store and as such cannot compete in any event at that store. Period. The girl can go to other stores and events, but the venue determines (in this situation) who to let in.

    But it has to be a good reason... like theft or she's causing problems within the store. POP and the TO would honor that.
  14. Adv1sor

    Adv1sor New Member

    Just my opinion but you are favoring 11-14 age players that are 11-12.

    You are creating age brackets that POP does not have and forcing some 11-14 players to play against 15+ while allowing other 11-14 players to play against 10-.

    A tournament like this should not be sanctioned.

    Why not use the age brackets that POP has designated for sanctioned play?
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2004
  15. meganium45

    meganium45 New Member

    Heck, I could just do it for 10- ,

    I just wanted to include more players in the event - and I like the younger set.

    I am not running 3 events - just 2, and that is a pretty good split - 12 or 11.

    I am not trying to create age divisions, just have experience, and know there is a BIG difference between a 9 year old and a 14 year old. Not such a difference between an 8 year old and a 12 year old.

    That is my reasoning for the split.

    Not trying to create new divisions.

    Ask any of the 11-12 year olds in Memphis if they are being "advantaged" by having to play against Taylor Mitchell (10) 4th in world 2004, Kevin White (10- National Champ 2004, T16 worlds), Andrew Krekeler (10- Nationals 2nd, 1st South Stadium Challenge, T16 Worlds), Zak Krekeler (currently #2 US). If I were in the 11-12 group and wanted an easy match, I am not sure if a younger division out of Memphis is where it is at!

    Last edited: Oct 25, 2004
  16. Rainbowgym

    Rainbowgym New Member

    Meganium, just do it the way you like.
    If it's not allowed to sanction, don't sanction, but never do anything what in your feeling hurts the playersbase. Sanctioning is not worth that.

    Splitting up in 12- and 13+ is a nice way, we tried that to, because of some very strong 10- players. (but we are not Official anymore)
    It has nothing to do with creating new agegroups it has to do with making a better spreaded playersfield.

    Nopoke - Why do you care, you do how you like it, you get permission from your National OP provider and PUI is not letting those providers down/fail.
    You are covered on each site.
    No one can blame you, you did'n't get corrected by the ones in charge.
    Throw the ball were it belongs and that's for international not at the professors but ..................... you know who.

    We tried for years to point at these kind of breaking the floor- tournament rules.
    Look were it brought us.
    WE not active as TO anymore and tournament results in the ranking which shouldn't be there. All with full approval of the National distributor and in that case POP.
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2004
  17. SteveP

    SteveP New Member

    Adv1sor makes a good point about favoring 11-12 year old kids. The only thing I'd question about a 12-under tournament is if the TO is doing this because his/her kid is 11 or 12. That's certainly grounds for investigation if the TO is circumventing the age categories to favor certain 11-12 year olds he/she may have an interest in.

    M45, hopefully you don't have children in that age group. ;) :cool:

    That being said, I'm guessing that POP might be switching up the age categories so they're in-line with the Japanese OP age categories. I believe 12-under is one of their age categories?
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2004
  18. Rainbowgym

    Rainbowgym New Member

    I have another interesting one.
    You are professor and attending to a tournament, so you are only a player, but on the other side you also are professor.
    You know that the event is not according the floorrules, but it is sanctioned.

    What should you do?
  19. NoPoke

    NoPoke New Member

    I'm not trying to lay a trap but I am interested in the opinions of others over operation in the grey areas.

    My view is that League Play could quite reasonably be held at restricted locations: eg schools, clubs, or even military bases (thanks SteveP!!!).

    Sanctioned play should be held to higher standards primarily to avoid accusations of manipulation and exclusion. But in essence this is down to attracting sufficient players based upon reasonable local catchment and oportunity of play.

    Premiere events should be held to the highest standards.

    So a premiere event held at a restricted location,mid-week, at 3am in the morning is WRONG. Other permutations of restriction,time, and location are equally to be avoided.

    [No I don't think that there are any 3am tournaments but you get the idea.... ;) ]


    I too am interested in the aspects of excluding individual players....
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2004
  20. ukpokemonpro

    ukpokemonpro New Member

    Thinks my garage at 3am .... someone is goona do it now ... NoPoke the man with ideas when it comes to being devious ;)

    Seriously tho' I have real issues with none-public locations even military bases have areas where the general public can get access the TO/LL just need to sort that out. The problem comes when you combine harder/no access venues with a time when nobody can go anyway and you don't advertise the event or any contact details..

    So GCHQ, 1am Monday morning on 1st january would be a killer for anyone in the UK to attend. Equally 3pm in the afternoon of Tuesday 2nd Nov' is bad add a location with restricted access and it is now a non-legal event IMHO and should not be sanctioned or supported!

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