A response to those wanting details on decks played

[Prime]

Sorry Matt, but skilled players will NEVER post their winning lists on here- most of them anyways.
I wont. For reasons already stated on this thread. Your really beating a dead horse IMHO.

Did I even mention skilled players posting their lists online in this entire thread? I've been discussing OP/PUI posting skilled players' lists.

how does it require interaction? do these kids not have any minds of there own?
how are they not capable of coming up with, accidentally or through hard work, a new powerful deck that helps shape the metagame?

It's very rare for a group of below skilled players with average potential to become good players from being around other lower skilled players. It's very rare, as it only happens once in a blue moon. It's common for someone to go undefeated at the league near them and then come in last at a premier tournament. That happens all the time because of the above. Not until they associate themselves with good players will they start to get better. And that is the truth, ask any player in this game that has won nats or worlds before.

seriously, ive come up with some amazing decks just from talking to little kids, like a few 8 year olds at my local league said that rampardos wasnt meant to have his own deck, cuz he makes himself die
he then went on to suggest lucario with him
i built it, it worked

Because Rampardos/Lucario is a very hard idea to come up with. /sarcasm. It's like saying Machamp and Lucario. You aren't a genius if you pair them together. Nothing against the kid, but he might have had the idea, but could he have come up with a good list, and then played it well enough at a tournament to do well? And I don't mean to discredit the 10- age group, but it's easier for random ideas to do well in the 10- than in Masters.

as for the best list, who says its the best?
bobby has swept 5 battle roads, does that mean his list is the best?
maybe the best list belongs to some kid in montana who has so few tournoments around him that he gets like no attention

I don't understand the points you make. You stress how posting the "good" list online would hurt players because it lowers their chances of doing well. Then you mention that someone doing very well might not be running the "good" list. Doesn't that take a lot of emphasis off of the "good" list, and actually prove my shades of gray idea?

and giving away another players decklist? how would that help anything?

I know many people that use lists to test in the beginning and truly understand the deck. People can use lists to play against and make sure their decks are better before going to a tournament. People can use lists to see how good decks are made and copy their style in the future to make their future decks better. People can use lists for many reasons.

if you have my list, that gives me an auto disadvantage

Because you play the same exact list at every tournament. If you do, then you deserve to lose. :/

how is that fair? just because i won an event now my deck is up for grabs?

Now, I don't see a reason to post a list for battle roads or cities, but states-on would be nice. Don't play the fair card, it doesn't work. You talk with your team about ideas and exchange lists, don't you? How is it fair to say that one can only do well if they know the "right" people?

if i won a tournoment with a deck, or even several tournoments, its because i worked on a deck and played well with it (that or i donked the living **** out of alot of people [grinder 07 anyone?])

And after you've won several tournaments, people are going to know what your running anyways. So why is posting one of your lists so bad? Again I stress, do you not update your deck after a lot of games?

what right does another player have to my hard made list? why cant they damn well make their own?

They don't have a "right" to your list. I never said they did, but if people get to see your lists, you get to see others too, so everyone gets equal treatment. It's fair to everyone.

make a deck, it fails, you pay attention to your games, you find out why, and you edit it
if you want, you can also ask an elite player for their advice

But if no elite players help, then what do you do?

just base your list off of what is online, and all i ahve to do is change decks or add in a few techs and BAM, i gotcha again

If it's so easily to "get" people again after they have seen your list, why be so against it? Seriously, you counter your own arguments. I don't even have to try.

 

[Burninating_Torchic]

Did you absolutely overlook my parenthetical statement about losing to those you help?

Typical liberal. Take things out of context and distort them far beyond their intended meaning. So, let me expound.

Helping someone become better, with the end-goal to make your competition better, is a noble cause. You're less likely to beat them, but when you do, there's a higher sense of accomplishment. Likewise, when they beat you, you feel a sense of pride for your "apprentice," knowing they probably could not have beaten you without your tutoring.

Helping others become better, thereby elevating your own competition, is by NO MEANS contradictory to the Spirit of the Game. Making others better in order to help yourself become better is NEVER a bad thing.

Oh well. I'll never understand the liberal idea that winning means someone has to lose, which in their mind's eye, is an evil, cynical concept.

What's a liberal?

 

[moza]

Liberal =\= libertarian

I think liberals are left wing, not entirely sure though.

 

[the_sniper]

Hey matt, PUI DOES post players lists- right after worlds. Right before
a new rotation. Actually they sell them as decks, but there is your list.

I think your idea about PUI posting winning deck lists is the dumbest thing I have ever heard
as a player. Sorry to burst your bubble matt, but this isn't nascar . No need for parody
in Pokemon. There is enough of it already. I think almost every "skilled" player would hate
it if PUI posted lists after events- i know i sure would.

Trainer engines win games-period!
Please tell me why on earth I ( or any other player) would want their winning decklist
( and trainer engine) posted on a public website? This is not a dig at you matt so please don't
take it as one, but i think if you won more ( or any ) tournaments you would understand where
most of us are coming from concerning this.

I know your intentions are for the better of the community, and i respect that. But in Pokemon- like
every other game- some people are good at it and some aren't. As a player, you can get better.
Read the cards, don't be afraid to try new ideas, maybe find a way to playtest. Put the hours
in, you'll become a better player.

Or just wait for a decklist to be posted somewhere. Let me know how that works
out for you.

 

[Tagrineth]

I think your idea about PUI posting winning deck lists is the dumbest thing I have ever heard
as a player.

It's how most of the other major CCGs do it, John.

 

[the_sniper]

It's how most of the other major CCGs do it, John.

I know Chris, but you and Richard have already said what it did to those games. And that's a major
reason why I play this game and not the other tcg's. Sorry Tag, but i just hate the idea of
"net-decking". I'm SO glad PUI doesn't do things like the other tcg's!!

As for you, one word- APPRENTICE lol Your a solid player with good ideas. Go to apprentice
and try them there. Not at your league w/ inferior players. I bet you'd be amazed at how quick
you get better at Pokemon. Just a thought my friend.


Take care.

 

[KingGengar]

Well, it seems that everybody is forgetting that there is an Archetype forum, and a Feature Article section, on Pokegym, where you can netdeck if you like. Personally, I think that's great. That said, everyone knows you have to tweak and tinker any deck you play, to suit your personality.

There is no shortage of decklists on Pokegym. I think what is at issue is whether tournament reports should include more details on the deck played by the thread-maker. Maybe we should have a separate forum for people who want to leave cryptic messages for their friends. Then, the issues some people have with secret decks would be solved, in my book. If you post a cryptic message in the wrong forum, it would just get moved by the mods. Any thoughts?

 

[Prime]

I think your idea about PUI posting winning deck lists is the dumbest thing I have ever heard
as a player. Sorry to burst your bubble matt, but this isn't nascar . No need for parody
in Pokemon. There is enough of it already. I think almost every "skilled" player would hate
it if PUI posted lists after events- i know i sure would.

But you can't speak for every skilled player. Is Tom W. not skilled? He's already been a supporter for this idea. And others have too if you read this thread.

Trainer engines win games-period!
Please tell me why on earth I ( or any other player) would want their winning decklist
( and trainer engine) posted on a public website? This is not a dig at you matt so please don't
take it as one, but i think if you won more ( or any ) tournaments you would understand where
most of us are coming from concerning this.

I've heard the "you don't understand because you've never won anything" excuse before. In my honest opinion, it is just that, an excuse. Do I not come up with my own ideas? Do I not spend time and effort to test them and refine them? I might not understand exactly what you and the others that actually do win tournaments go through, but I can relate to a big part of it. Winning tournaments has nothing to do with this issue. You can win endless amounts of tournaments and not be creative or have any part in making any new deck. How many people are handed lists from the creative member of their team and use it to win tournaments? Look at Martin. He was given the deck right before Nationals and won the next day. Did he put the effort into coming up with the list and perfecting the trainer engine? No. You can't just blow be off because I'm not right next to you winning multiple battle roads.

We all go through the process , and we all take pride in our creations. I can understand how you would feel without having to had made the last big deck just like I can understand how a person who lost their job can feel without actually losing my job. I might not 100% understand, but I can comprehend and relate, and because of that, you can't just count me out because I am not in the same exact situation as you and others.

I know your intentions are for the better of the community, and i respect that. But in Pokemon- like
every other game- some people are good at it and some aren't. As a player, you can get better.
Read the cards, don't be afraid to try new ideas, maybe find a way to playtest. Put the hours
in, you'll become a better player.

The problem isn't there there are some good players and there are some bad players. Once you actually get away from the majority that are mediocre players, you find that there are a huge group of good players. And on any given day, any fluctuation in luck, decklist strength, and skill can cause certain people to win and certain people to not.

I honestly feel that if we played games more often (you and me John), you wouldn't just discount me as another mediocre player (not trying to put words in your mouth). I am a good player, maybe not as good as you or some of the really good players in this game. I have gone tow to tow with players like ryan vergal, jake burt, erik nance, etc, and it hasn't been a steamroll. But because of the above issue, the only time you see me at a tournament, you do well and I...don't really. And maybe that is because I am not as good as you and others and can't consistently do well at tournaments, but I'm still a good player. And I feel there are many people like me. They are good players, but they just aren't good enough to consistently do well. And I think partially it branches from a lack of a competitive environment. I don't know anything about Florida's environment but it sounds very competitive and I feel a very competitive environment breeds the best players. I'm sure the Sablehaus (plural...?) miss Florida's competitive environment and I know I would to. But because not everyone lives in a very competitive area, not everyone is given the perfect environment to grow and become the best of the best. And because of that, you end up with many players like me, with skill, but just not enough to do well consistently.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that there isn' just some good players and some bad players. There is a whole slew of grays out there, that can on any given day, given the luck and matchups, do well. And I' d love to see all kinds of players get better at the game so maybe my area would become more competitive and maybe I would grow as a player. I'd love to go to a tournament and have 6 great rounds, regardless or not if I make the top cut. But what really happens is based on who I face, usually half the games are steamrolls in my favor, a quarter of them are steamrolls for my opponent, and a quarter of them go down to the line. Out of that list, only a quarter of games are actually good and enjoyable. I feel we would all like to have more close games, because we all love to be competitive and love to face opponents we might not be able to steamroll and see how well we do. That's how I feel anytime I sit across the table from any of the florida players. I know their skill, and I hope the game is a long one so I can learn as much and become a better player from the encounter.

Helping players helps the game. Helping players in your area is only one part of it. If you only help people in your area, and ignore the rest of the world, you're only missing out of the chance of a better, more competitive scene around the nation.

Or just wait for a decklist to be posted somewhere. Let me know how that works
out for you.

I didn't have to wait. Tom W. posted his list well before Nationals and made top 16. Look how that caught on.

IMHO, I feel the only thing holding players back from posting their lists is themselves. I feel they know they could do just as well if they posted their lists, but they have the idea that it would hurt them tremendously to post their lists online. They don't really think about the idea that they could post a simplified version of their list and help get the idea across, but not actually give out there exact list. Or do they realize the idea that after they do well enough at tournaments, people will already have a really good idea what they are playing. They even forget to take into account that they might update their list after certain sets or tournaments come around and that a old list online can't hurt them much at all. But they keep reassuring themselves that it would hurt them. Maybe they are just scared of the game changing. Maybe they just want to keep it the same way it's always been. Maybe they are worried they won't win as much if the game changes. I don't know. But they definitely aren't thinking about the whole picture. The only reason people won't post their lists online is because they want to win.

 

[DarkJake]

page 9 being a broken link is REALLY reducing my reading experience!

 

[Rambo1000]

prime, since there is "no perfect list" for decks, why would it matter if an "elite" player posted their list? why can't some random post their list and you can tweak it from there? if you know the idea of the deck, like you said, you can usually make a list that works "just as well if not better" than the list you were given. don't rely on the "elite" players you like to talk down on posting their lists when there are plenty to choose from on here. a lot of winning deck ideas have been posted here anyway, so make your own list, like you said you do. this just further proves that there is NO REASON to post tourney-winning deck lists.

 

[ryanvergel]

Oh, how I wish every game of pokemon was decided completely by skill.

Good lists aren't ALWAYS more consistant! Take Metanite. If you had a "good" list, you were probably playing Latios*, Lugia ex, possibly Groudon ex, only 1 Dragonair, and no draw besides MAYBE both holon draw cards. A "bad" list would play no tech basics (less bad starters) and more middle stage evolutions, thereby making it more consistent.



I agree, except when you CAN'T do anything about your loss. For example, Nats 07... I lost to Turn 1 Skill Hack. Twice. I don't think "trying harder" is going to win me that game. Same with losing T1 to a Riolu. I understand saying "oh well" at something like a BR, but these things happen at huge events, too. I got 33rd at nats because of illegitimate losses, and Aaron Curry missed grinding into worlds because he didn't even get to draw a card against Riolu. Five other people also lost T1 to a Riolu at the grinder.

Point being: sometimes working harder isn't enough. I understand luck-based wins are part of the game, but I don't think anyone should be criticized for losing TURN ONE, when you don't even get to draw.

Anyway, since that was kind of off topic... I honestly don't have that much of a problem with publishing winning decklists.

Pros:
-Beating opponents with better lists won't hurt your resistance as much because they will do better.
-Players with better lists yield more points when you beat them, because they will have done better; in addition, your losses to them will hurt you less because they won't be as far below you as those to whom you didn't give help.
-If someone is playing a deck whose list has been posted online, there's less of a chance that the list will have surprises, or things you wouldn't expect; if it did, I don't see how an online list would affect that.
-If a deck becomes popular via online publishing, it will be easier to predict the metagame.
-Winning a tournament gets you even more respect because you beat less "randies" and more "good players." (Since these players will probably become "better" through using/understanding these lists... but this might not always be the case! I really don't know.)
-You'll get better games and feel good about helping other players (although I'm sure a lot of people don't value this one highly).

Cons:
-The list that the winner (hopefully) worked hard to perfect is COMPLETELY revealed, making it easy to copy and requires players to think less on their own (in many cases).
-Players of lesser skill winning because they were given a more consistent list.
-???


I honestly laugh sometimes when I read the "TRUK Engine" thread. I've seen every legit trainer in the GAME right now posted on that thread. I'll give you all some clues:

1) TV Reporter, Celio's Network, Holon Mentor, Team Galactic's Wager, Copycat, Castaway and Steven's Advice are not specific to the "TRUK Engine." In fact, I think every deck that is to be considered reasonable should be playing some combination of the above Supporter cards.

2) Let's do some logical thinking here. Would you play Quick Ball in a deck with 20+ pokemon? Probably not. Would you play it in something with 8 Pokemon, such as Turn 2 Blissey? I would, and I do. And since it has already been confirmed on Pokegym that Blissey is not synonymous with a TRUK deck, what can we conclude?

Steven Silvestro helped me with my Blissey list that I won 3 BRs with. He didn't use a TRUK Engine. I was 1st in the world yesterday. You don't need this secret engine to win.

Well, it would have less consistent setup but more consistent wins/comebacks, etc.

 

[Tagrineth]

I know Chris, but you and Richard have already said what it did to those games. And that's a major
reason why I play this game and not the other tcg's. Sorry Tag, but i just hate the idea of
"net-decking". I'm SO glad PUI doesn't do things like the other tcg's!!

It really only happened to Yu-Gi-Oh! and that was long before lists started being published. YGO is a totally flawed game from the ground up and is far more vulnerable to these issues than any other CCG in existence... it's the only CCG with absolutely no checks and balances to prevent combos, other than specifically banning/limiting cards.

As for you, one word- APPRENTICE lol Your a solid player with good ideas. Go to apprentice
and try them there. Not at your league w/ inferior players. I bet you'd be amazed at how quick
you get better at Pokemon. Just a thought my friend.


Take care.

Yeah, yeah, I know, I'm just too lazy to set it up properly, I have it installed but the latest expansion I have on it is Dragon Frontiers.

I have a lot of newer players in my area now that are CCG veterans and playing on a pretty serious level though so hopefully my own situation will get better! And yes, this season, expect to see me at more than a single city championship!!

 

[Prime]

prime, since there is "no perfect list" for decks, why would it matter if an "elite" player posted their list? why can't some random post their list and you can tweak it from there? if you know the idea of the deck, like you said, you can usually make a list that works "just as well if not better" than the list you were given. don't rely on the "elite" players you like to talk down on posting their lists when there are plenty to choose from on here. a lot of winning deck ideas have been posted here anyway, so make your own list, like you said you do. this just further proves that there is NO REASON to post tourney-winning deck lists.

Now, I have stressed the importantance of elite players posting information about decks in the past that they have created and that have become the next big deck ONLY because they know the deck better than anyone else. Many people will try to put the deck together after it comes out and try to submit an article for it which just doesn't cut the mustard because they don't really know the deck as well as the creator.

In most every other case, any decent list would be fine as long as it got the idea across.

But AGAIN, I was discussing PUI posting lists, not players themselves in this thread. Let's stay on topic please.

 

[SteveP]

As good a player as JohnS is, when he advised me offline about his Regionals-winner Flariados deck, I still changed a few cards to match my own tastes. Up until John won with that deck, I had been experimenting with a very similiar deck. After seeing John's list, I realized his deck wasn't so much tech as it was consistent.

The trainer engine plays a big part in consistency, but usually a smaller role in tech-ing.

Blissey is one of those rare decks that can include tech as well as consistency, and be very fast. So, I can truly understand a desire by some to keep that one under wraps.

By the way, I've got a single deck that consistently beats Blissey, Rampio, Mario, Empoleon. Problem is, it's a slower deck, so time limits kill it. Plus, it's an auto-loss to good fire decks. Without revealing this deck, I'll bet any above-average player could figure this one out, or come very close.

Anyway, I can understand a desire by some to be convert rather than overt. The real world is somewhere in between. Those who see will tell.

 

[SuperWooper]

Because you play the same exact list at every tournament. If you do, then you deserve to lose. :/

I played the same list (I switched out an energy for a different energy at a couple tournaments) at 4 Battle Roads and won 2 of them. Are you saying that my wins were illegitimate because I used the same list at all four of those tournaments?

Even if you "didn't mean it," or "that's not what I said," or whatever, be careful when you say that anyone "deserves" to win or lose. Elite players who consider themselves as "deserving" are usually the recipients of your complaints here, and you're only giving them ammunition by using the phrase "deserve to lose." After all, if some "deserve to lose," then some must deserve to win, too, right?

 

[Prime]

You are right, I shouldn't say anyone deserves to win or lose. I was trying to argue against that idea a while back in this thread.

The point I was trying to make is that after any good testing period, a deck will change. A deck is never perfect or "done" and it will be constantly tweaked as time goes on, and can be tweaked the day of the tournament to do better against the current metagame. So someone really can't hide behind the idea that someone will know what they are playing. Someone would know what they played that day, but if their deck is like any other deck, it will change over time, and that list someone has won't mean as much.

 

[Rambo1000]

to be quite honest, some of what you're saying rings true. i really wouldn't care if people knew my winning blissey list after i won with it. thing is, i also probably won't give it to them. there is nothing about giving my list away that benefits me in any way. no one ever gave me lists when i started, and i'm sure very few players start out playing with top-of-the-line deck lists. if you want a good decklist, don't rely on the internet. rely on testing and enough knowledge of the metagame to know exactly what a deck needs to win.

 

[Tagrineth]

Well, yeah, definitely, under the current system there's no real incentive besides just plain altruism, lol. It's just something that would probably improve the community and improve the understanding and quality of the playerbase as a whole, rather than leaving the game so dominated by the strongest team playgroups.

 

[Rambo1000]

understandable. but consider that each and every "elite" player has had to WORK to gain his or her "elite" status. like some kid chuck once said, "no easy buckets!" like anything else in life you have to work to get to get to the level of the "elites." it's not THAT hard to get archetype lists from the gym and test your deck against them until it can beat the majority of the format.

 

[Tagrineth]

understandable. but consider that each and every "elite" player has had to WORK to gain his or her "elite" status. like some kid chuck once said, "no easy buckets!" like anything else in life you have to work to get to get to the level of the "elites." it's not THAT hard to get archetype lists from the gym and test your deck against them until it can beat the majority of the format.

But, see, it's not that easy or simple because without a team who is as dedicated as yourself you can't get anywhere near the same level of playtesting the bigger teams like Lafonte et al.

I'm also not really talking about the "elite" level. It's just that the current "elite" level stands significantly, almost excessively above the "average player" level, and that's where the real improvements would be seen - and, hey, if the quality of the "average player" goes up, that just makes the consistent "elite" that much more impressive right?