A Word on Jynx

Discussion in 'Anime Realm' started by Psycho_Lugia_X, Jan 2, 2004.

  1. Psycho_Lugia_X

    Psycho_Lugia_X New Member

    I couldnt find the original thread that started this thought, so I'll post my take on the race/Pokémon issue here. Keep in mind that the following was in response to some others talking about how they cant imagin how Jynx can be offensive to black people. I wont go into specifics about how it CAN be percieved as such, unless you want me to.

    Doubt anyone'd read this, but i cant help but jump in. You have to admit there are some similarities between jynx and the hardcore racist, old-time stereotypical depiction of a black person. In my english class we were reading To Kill a Mockingbird and during a discussion of racism, read the book, my teacher brought up a slide show he created using images from the Jim Crowe Museum of Racist Memorabilia. Jim Crowe, as in the racist laws, yes him. Anyways, among the assortmant of pictures of slaves eating watermelons and stuff, was a picture of Jar-Jar Binks and our dear Jynx! Turns out that there is a striking similarity.

    If u dont know, you better ask somebody, put the old racist charicature next to a picture of Jynx. You'll see it. Maybe you dont believe it now, but you have to see it. Break down the old pictures into a couple of key features that make up the charicature and break down the key features that make Jynx Jynx. Put those lists together...spooky. Not to mention the Japaneses' racially controvertial past. There have been many troubling debates regarding race and the Japaneses' depiction of it.

    I'm Mexican, but im not crying to my mommy over the depiction of Team Mexico in Medabots, or even LOMBRE, LUDICOLO, or the Magikarp salesman! When it comes down to it, yeah, the Japanese push their luck with the tolerance of their depictions, but its up to the person who sees the product. Will you take it too seriously? Will you overreact? I konw i dont think it's harmful, but in this politically correct society, you cant say jack squat without someone shushing you...at least if you are a widely seen entity, as anime is.

    My mom really takes this stuff seriously, but as for me, i dont, because its just a cartoon and they arent putting you down by their charicature, they are just drawing a goofy picture of you. If they were to make these aforesaid people do something that was offensive like maybe the salesman gardening or something like that, then that's where you draw the line.

    If they make a charicature of you, then it's all in good fun as long as they dont get carried away with it. The minute they start pulling stuff like that episode after episode, then you draw the line. The minute they start making these charicatures perform stereotypical, demeaning acts, thats when you draw the line.

    In short, dont overreact to a picture, overreact when they REALLY mess with you. If you can tell jokes anymore, then what fun is there. Have fun, but dont get carried away. As long as they keep it in check, i dont see a problem with it. To that girl who wrote the letter, i think you might have gotten carried away a little. At most, the situation warrants a "Man did you see that? THat was messed up!" Boom end of story, go back to your Fruit Loops. Thank you for your time.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2004
  2. Joe Monkey

    Joe Monkey New Member

    Well said:D
     
  3. SailorClef

    SailorClef New Member

    Okay... first of all, I do think that ludicolo and it's pre evolutions look like they're based of off of steriotypical mexicans...... but...... It also appears to be based off of kappa...

    and also.... that article about jynx that seems to keep coming up.... was written by a lady, not a "girl".. i've actually found the article, here:
    http://www.tbwt.com/views/specialrpt/special report-1_1-5-00.asp
     
  4. Mr. Grass

    Mr. Grass New Member

    This just goes to show that people will always find ways to be offended, even if it means stretching and twisting someone else's work.
     
  5. Joe Monkey

    Joe Monkey New Member

    Thanks for the article SailorClef. Theres just some thing I'd like to say, Pokemon are based after animals, myths, and other stuff.

    I say Jynx is bad luck for your foe:D
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2004
  6. DeltaSuicune

    DeltaSuicune New Member

    Keep in mind that there are stereotypes of other races in every country whether you are aware of it or not. It happens that the Japanese think of all Mexicans as Poncho wearing tequila swiggin singing taco lovers, just as Americans view Canadians as dog-sled driving igloo living fur trading beaver loving loggers. Russians view Americans as fat cough potatoes who eat pizza all day and drink beer, the list goes on and on, I think you know many of these already. Anime happens to be widely popular and gets a lot of criticism as it originally happens to come from Japan, a previously mortal enemy of the US (and still is an economic rival as well as trading partner many will grudginly accept)

    There was a huge article on Jynx from an angry African mother which got very famous in the media and many people pounced on it as an opportunity to break their children away from Pokemon, I'll see if I can get the url to it again.

    Edit: SailorClef beat me to it ^^;;

    Well said, I know there are numerous 'banned' episodes of Pokemon due to whatever violating nature they may of had: Porygon simply because of its visually spasmatic nature and the ensuing seisures nation wide in its first airing in Japan, episodes banned here because of other subtle traits like Brock accidentally kissing mistaking it for Nurse Joy, the list goes on and on. Whether you got to see them or not, it's an animated show presumably aimed at kids, don't analyze it to death, it's not meant to aim at Oscars or something, nothing's perfect, let's adjust.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2004
  7. Psycho_Lugia_X

    Psycho_Lugia_X New Member

    I'm sorry, my mistake, i was under the impression that a little girl wrote the report. I must have misread the original post, i read it a while ago and at midnight-ish. Remember, the purpose of the first post in this thread was to respnd to this issue that was lightly spoken about in another thread, and to give a focus to this topic, rather than just mention. I heard about this report from the thread i read and didnt get to read the report until the link was provided a few posts ago. As for the post above this, i think you mean Emmies.

    Back to the issue, the point of my first post was to admit that the pokémon were drawn up with a racially charged connotation. There is a small part of my mind that tells the rest of me to not take this Ludicolo/Lombre so lightly. Then names of the pokés themselves are kind of racist sounding. Ludi-ludicrous (crazy/rediculous/laughable)...colo-"loco" spelled backwards (Spanish for "crazy," as if you didnt know). Lombre (sounds like "Hombre" Spanish for man.) Note that this AND Jynx in their pokédex entries state each poké as a "human type" monster. Note i'm not going after Lotad because, sure it has a sombrero looking deal on his head, but its a bit of a stretch to name him.

    Come now, let's be sensible, there is no way you can honestly deny the appearences of the pokés as charicatures of Black people and Mexicans. If you search your mind deep enough you will see that I am making sense to you, and you can admit it. It doesnt make Pokémon as a brand bad, it just makes a couple of their moves bad ones. I am stretching nothing, only reporting on what is plain and evident. Simply look at the appearences, what do you see? What do you see? Just look.

    You can't say that the Jynx/Ludicolo/Lombre physical similarites are a stretch. Stretching to make your point would be saying Mr. Mime bags on the French. Maybe the pun behind the name, but you cant make serious links between the two. Whereas with this comparison, you have to be quite obstinant to not see the similarities. Ultimately the choice is your to believe me or not, but I think you'd have to use effort to not see what i'm saying.

    If there is some reason, some doubt for why you don't believe me, then maybe it is my explanation. Tell me why you dont buy this argument, then if you lay your logic on the line as i have, we might be able to make progress. If you who dont agree with my camp point out flaws in our logic, or holes in it, please state them. This is a serious issue, not fun and games as Pokémon usually is. This is a serious point to be made and i want to make sure i have made it to the very best of my ability.

    I think it would be a great benefit for this thread and it's growing viewers to see two sides to this racial coin. That is why it is important that someone who disagrees point out your thoughts. I would really, really appreciate a dissenting response.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2004
  8. DeltaSuicune

    DeltaSuicune New Member

    BAH! the page reset on me, and I am NOT typing out that huge commentary again, so summary only, I was not saying otherwise, I was commenting that racial references like this are pounced upon more in North America here since we like to sue the heck out of companies, and in Asia things like that are not cared about as much, and seeing as how that was where the game was made, and NoA decided to carry it straight over to here, I can't say anything.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2004
  9. Psycho_Lugia_X

    Psycho_Lugia_X New Member

    Hey, i saw you hovering in the veiwing list and was waiting for you to bite. Well, first of all some friendly advise to you, copy and paste after EVERY post is written out, then click post, and you'll be ready if it resets.

    There are some points to make on what you said. Do you wonder why we are more sensitive here in the US than over there in Japan? Maybe it's because there is more diversity here? They have been sketchy about the racial sensitivity thing for quite a bit. Isn't it a possibility that the lady was genuinely upset about it? Come on, this can be a really messed up thing to see, especially if you are black. More if you are an adult or someone older, you have experienced real racism and then things start calming down. But just when you think things are getting better, you see this.

    If i were black I'd be more put off by Jynx than the Lombre line. But it is impossible for those who arent black and especially for those who arent old enough to have seen the heavy stuff, or even the remnants. Watch The History Channel, they'll have stuff on it. These times were seriously bad times, when stuff went around unchecked and unrestricted.

    The image of Jynx just brings to surface old feelings ans spirits that are really evil. This is hard to explain in words, but what i'm getting at is the Mammy charicature was a symbol to really bitter, hard feelings towards black people. Jynx alludes to that and that is a shame. I imagine this must be pretty hard to understand if you are not black, or non-white for that matter, i dunno. Do some light research, punch in Jim Crowe Museum, search it. See what that yields. The information, the history, they are horrible. To think that they would reborn these sentiments in these little pictures.

    To turn this over to the root of the problem, in retrospect Japan has been pushing it's luck a bit too much recently. They dont discard these old practices because there arent enough voices over there drawing lines. I'm pretty sure the Black population over there isnt as numerous there as it is here. If there is next to no support of thoughts there, then what chance do they have there? Black people fought for their rights here, and vile practices like these charicatures were done away with because more people started seeing it in bad taste.

    If Japan could make steps like these, then there would be far less of these things popping up. All throughout anime they make Black people literally black. That is in bad taste. They really have been punching at old jokes that dont fly well with this age.

    As a quick note before i go, I encourage people to check out the Jim Crowe Museum online. SEE what i am talking about. SEE IT! (You'll see stuff you won't expect, modern stuff as well as the older stuff. You'll see Mr. Popo, for example.)

    Please, Mr. Grass, let's see whatchu got! I really want to see your views.

    In a future post, I'll respond to individual preceeding posts; it's getting late.
     
  10. Water Pokemon Master

    Water Pokemon Master <a href="http://pokegym.net/gallery/browseimages.p

    You didn't misread it, I said that a girl had written it and I must had misread the news article when I posted that a while ago.

    Anyways, in the episode "All Things Bright and Beautifly" that aired Saturday, they cut out a small and not important scene of Jynx that was in the original Japanese version. It seems they will do anything to please anyone who brings up something bad about Pokemon. I should write an article on how Yu-Gi-Oh creatures are scary looking and that they should make them cuter.

    If they don't like Jynx, then they shouldn't watch the show! That is just so stupid to say that Jynx looks black and then to watch the show. Hasn't this person heard of ignoring things? For crying out loud, if anyone has a problem, even a 3 year old says to ignore it.

    EDIT: I just skimmed through the article and am laughing my head off. This woman is comparing herself to Jynx! She is saying that Black women have big lips, wide hips, etc. That is kind of funny. I also think this women is overreacting. Why do we even need to know that Jynx looks like a Black person? We didn't think that until she brought it up. Why do they always have to find something wrong with everything? It is a kid show, they didn't make Jynx to insult Black people. There goal was not to do that, it was what the lady made of it and she had to turn it into a big deal.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2004
  11. Psycho_Lugia_X

    Psycho_Lugia_X New Member

    I dunno, you had me for a second and then i fell. Have you or anyone else seen the old racist cartoons of black people? Anyone? You really have too have seen them to see the point. It's like the entire world is in on this joke and you are the only one not getting it. Why? Because you dont know why the joke is funny. That's why comedians have "set ups," where they give you some info before they deliver the funny part to the joke. Basically, you need some information before they can make you laugh.

    Same thing with this grim joke, unless you know the set up, it wont be funny. Not literally, but for analogies' sake. I mean that if you know the history behind the appearence of Jynx, those traits mentioned by the lady in the letter, then you can get why the Jynx depiction is so...important.

    Do you get what i'm saying? If a comedian says "The duck goes, 'Got any gwapes'?," that isnt very funny, but if you get the history, the set up behind that joke, then you can get why "The duck goes, 'Got any gwapes?'" is so funny. (I'm sure most have heard that joke.)

    So please, please look into the history behind the picture. Those traits have been around in cartoons for a long time, it's bigger than just this one show. You have to realize this goes deeper than just a quick gag. This is something serious, drenched in history.

    The lady in the letter was comparing Jynx to the old charicature. There were a couple varieties of racist cartoons. There was the Uncle Tom, the Mammy, and more. Please, if you have never heard of this, you really have too look into it, otherwise it is nearly impossible for me to be as clear as i want to be. There were some basic rules to follow in making one of these rasict pictures, to exaggerate some features to make a mocking picture of the chosen character.

    I do agree with you, though, that if they dont like Jynx then they should just abandon the show. However, there's no escaping it in the games. You are honoring this image if you get the game or endorse it with your money. If you feel opposed to Jynx, but find yourself supporting it through purchases, it kind of irritates your efforts.

    She might have gone too far with the world wide scandle thing; I would have just told some people I knew about it as a conversation over lunch and leave it at that. But then again when you consider the deep ties this simple character has...it's tough to judge how to react.

    I guess the problem lies in liking the show, but detesting a certain character. By chance Jynx may make an appearence and drege up these foul feelings. That's a shame to the viewer if they take offense to it. If you dont take any kind of offense, you could at least recognize that it may offend some.

    So, maybe reread the letter again. See the connections. Don't laugh this off, really ponder the information.

    Especially reread these parts carefully:

    The character Jynx, Pokémon #124, has decidedly human [no mention of the author herself, friend] features: jet-black skin, huge pink lips, gaping eyes, a straight blonde mane and a full figure, complete with cleavage and wiggly hips. Put another way, Jynx resembles an overweight drag queen incarnation of Little Black Sambo, a racist stereotype [check out the history on this] from a children's book long ago purged from libraries...And we have seen enough racist stereotypes to know one when we see it.

    Taken from the letter, "Politically Incorrect Pokémon."

    See what I mean.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2004
  12. DeltaSuicune

    DeltaSuicune New Member

    As you wish then, let us get some intelligent debate going here.

     
  13. Psycho_Lugia_X

    Psycho_Lugia_X New Member

    Both, opine/debate; beautiful formula.

    I guess I'll take your word for it about the diversity issue, since you have first hand accounts.

    About the comical portrayal of black people in stereotype, their reasoning does not excuse the sting behind the build of the character. Do Black people really look like that? No. The cartoons are wild exaggerations of generalities. If a joke is in bad taste, then it should be frowned upon. It would be like cracking jokes about 9/11 and bagging on the people who died. Maybe what you say will be funny, but is it in good taste? No. It is a low blow and should be treated as such. You should distance yourself from making cheap shots. These modern cartoons allude to the darker Western past of the charicature. That is certainly something to be avoided because it can be avoided. It was their choice to make up a character like this one. By doing this, they make a bad memory resurfice when it should be graying and dieing.

    As for your sumo argument, I dont buy it. I'm sorry, but the difference between that guy and the others is that Makuhita's line is a poke at a certain class of Japanese. However, the Jynx/Lombre line punches are widely known generalities--popular stereotypes. The thing is, everyone thought that's how Mexicans and Blacks are, its a general idea. They took the funniest way of thinking that and put it to a cartoon. That's how the demeaning pictures were originally born. But what about the sumo gag? Who thinks that all Japanese are sumos? If everyone were to believe that, then i would give a nod to your makuhita argument, but as far as i know, the sterotypical Japanses guy is in a black shool uniform if he's a kid, and a black business suit if he's a man. True, many people think of sumo wrestlers when they think of Japan, but when asked about the people of Japan, I'll wager they wont consider a nation of sumos as a first thought.

    My argument carries over to Popo. On the one hand, who knew these stories would gain so much popularity that they would float over borders? Maybe the racial stuff is a big inside joke. But when they cross borders it becomes a global joke, and if people dont think it's funny, then the joke shouldnt be present. I think the Japanse people are stuck in a mindset of racial ignorance, like a kid might think he's so great and ignore the feelings of the other kids. That would prompt the creation of Popo in the first place. Toriyama didnt need to make Popo look the way he does. And his creative decision, as well as Tajiri's, was made global. The remedy is to just stop. Let the joke die away because it's no good anymore. It's like those cartoons from the WWII saga of media. Looney Tunes, Comics, Propaganda, its all the same thing. But you dont see these remnants anymore because they have been recognized as things that are simply not ok anymore. We dont keep poking fun at the parties involved over here, behind their backs. We let the cartoons die out. If anything, we revisit them to educate ourselves about why it's a bad thing.

    I'm pretty sure all of these unfunny cartoons could have been avoided, or at least altered. But it was their creators' choice to make them and bad judgement on their part. If at all, we could give a little condonation to Toriyama since it is so old, but even at that, I'd be careful to give him a clean slate so quickly. And as one more quick note to Delta, i am pretty sure im not alone in thinking you dont need two characters to get your point across (Jynx+Mr.Jynx).
     
  14. johnznothere

    johnznothere New Member

    Wait wait wait. hey lugia! didn't we have something like this before? You said African Americans think Japenese ppl are racists because they include NO african americans in their shows? It's like there's always something wrong with the Japanese people.
     
  15. SailorClef

    SailorClef New Member

    Ugh.. well... I forgot to mention...

    One of my best friends is black..... and when I told her that some lady was saying that Jynx was racist she was like "WHAAAAAT? o_O"
    She thought it was rediculous.. and SHE IS BLACK.

    I think it is very possible that Jynx may be based off of something else... I mean... look at snorunt..... it's an ice type and it looks a heck of alot like Jynx in my opinion.. I think before someone does some research to find out for sure what these pokemon are based off of, the "Jynx is racist" argument dosen't stand..
    I mean.... they woulden't just stick ice/psychic type on it for no reason.. I think there's more to it.
     
  16. Mr. Grass

    Mr. Grass New Member

    (Disclaimer: Everything I say here is opinion and reaction. I mean no offense to anyone and I choose my terminology soley on making my meaning clear. Plus, I believe "blacks" is a better)
    Sorry that my reply is so long in coming, but I've been busy putting a new league together since our Wizards store closed. And by the way, is whatchugot a new pokémon? ;)

    First off, I'd like to point out that I fail to see the connection to Lombre/Lodicolo and Hispanics. I suppose it could be the wide brimmed hats, but I've seen that style of hat all over the world (okay, I haven't actually been all over the world, but I too have seen national geographic). I'd also like to point out that the names we have for pokémon are different in Japan, so twisting around the english names isn't entirely fair to the japanese creators. I don't know who is head of the Department of Pokémon Name Translation, so I can't really help you there.

    Moving right along, I think one problem here is context. I have seen some of the historic "art" that stereotypes blacks and it is meant to be offensive. The target audience is well aware that blacks are being mocked. The "art" deliberately overemphasized cosmetic differences in an attempt to create humor.
    Jynx is set in a context targeting children. The apparent goal of the medium is to create characters that children will find entertaining. So there are all sorts of pokémon created so we have a variety of ways to attract children. Noow we discover that one of these pokémon has a striking resemblance to stereotypical art from before the target audience's time. I haven't seen any children make a connection between Jynx and blacks. It's always been adults that connected Jynx to stereotyping art. Because they see something that resembles racist art people automatically asume that it is racist as well.
    For now all I see is a resemblance that may or may not be deliberate. For that we'll have to go back to Japan and find out who came up with the idea for Jynx. I submit that Jynx may have been intentionally created as a charicature of blacks, but I think it is also possible that the creators were just making what they thought was an amusing character that coincidentally resembles racist art.

    I think that very often people actually go out of there way to look for something offensive. Just leafing through the pokedex I found a few possibilities for stereotyping. I've actually noticed these things before but never really felt pressed to discuss them until now:
    Medicham: A wiry thin body with MC Hammer dancing pants. Obviosly a mockery of hip hop dancing. Look into Hoppip as well.
    Slaking: A mockery of the elderly. It is fat, has a white beard, and can only move once every other turn.
    Makuhita: Already covered it seems
    Nuzleaf: Just take a look at the picture and tell me it doesn't resemble a young black child
    Snorlax: An obese pokemon that sleeps for most of the day. I guess fat pokemon are lazy just like fat people.
    Castform: Looks a lot like the headress worn by a well known racist organization
    Persian: It's named after a geographic area. It's lazy, requires doting on, and just makes its own money
    Slowpoke: A mockery of people with learning disorders. The "dopey pokemon"
    Xatu: Clearly a spoof on Native American totem poles

    Are there pokemon that are stereotypes? Yes. In any form if entertainment you are bound to find stereotypical (stock) characters. Are these stereotypes intentional? Yes, to an extent. Very often I believe people read a little too much in to it. Are some of these pokemon racist? Maybe. The creators' intention aside, symbols are always open to interpretation. I am not offended by Jynx and I do not believe that it is offensive to anyone else. Should Jynx be edited out of further pokemon episodes? I don't think so, but I'm not in charge, so I'll just have to let the art be butchered to appease the masses.

    Of course I could go on a whole new rant right there, but I think I've said enough this round. Thanks for hanging in there.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2004
  17. Psycho_Lugia_X

    Psycho_Lugia_X New Member

    Thank you, Mr. Grass! As you are the star of this post, I think it fiiting i address your post last.

    SailorClef, how old is your friend? As I, a California born Mexican teenager, have never experienced the hard core racism of the past, I am not offended by Lombre/Ludicolo. In fact, just this afternoon i was thinking about the first Sandstorm booster I opened. I pulled a Lotad in it. I was amazed at the picture. It was so well done. I love to see pokémon drawn so realistically; that's one of the reasons I buy the cards, as a bonus for playing the game. Well, during this reflection, i kept thinking about how cool it is to own that card! I was on my way to building a deck starring the Mexican pokémon! I realized i thought it was a pretty cool design model for pokémon. However, notice how my mom was the one offended by the designs. I didnt see the pokés offensive at all, but i did acknowledge their origins in regards to being race based (which isnt a wise business move, to make race involved in something widespread/subject to mass public interpretation), although i do see the Kappa influences in him, as well. I am old enough to be able to recognize a subtlety. Now, note that the Letter Lady was offended, not the daughter. Notice how adults are usually the ones who blow whistles and expose stuff? Rather than shrug it off as digging too deep, attempt--honestly attempt--to see what they are saying. With age comes wisdom. That's how the saying goes. So would it be that shocking if an informed, intelligent adult made a criticism of something below the surface, something that requires simple analysis that was accurate? Think school. Think when you had to read a book and then understand symbols or a passage. There is a deeper meaning to stuff. Read it once to get the information, read again to find the real information--the meaning. There is more to it than what you first see. So there are two ways to look at a picture, above the surface and below the surface. The key to understanding the latter is allowing yourself to see their point and not shut it out as impossible.

    Sailor Clef:
    "I think before someone does some research to find out for sure what these pokemon are based off of, the "Jynx is racist" argument dosen't stand.."

    That's just it, people have done research. The only person who can confirm this, however, is probably Satoshi Tajiri, himself. Nothing can be confirmed until whomever gave Jynx's design its stamp of approval responds. As you are eager to discover the deeper meaning behind Jynx's type, I, along with others, am eager to see the deeper meaning behind Jynx and Lombre/.... So if there is some good evidence for your conclusion, share it. I have a history of evidence on my side. There is coincidence and then there's coincidence, as in gee-that's-a-little-too-coincidental. If this response doesnt help out, please post in the future.

    Ok, johnznothere, thanks for the memory and pithiness. If you could link us all up to that thread, it was a DBZ thread...anyways, i am almost certain i cited that when people of major races, shall we say, are involved, they have to be funky versions of them--you know what i mean. I remember SPECIFICALLY naming Mr. Popo as a relevent example of this. Check Cyborg 009, i like how the black guy isnt Poporiffic; there is progress. If you still have issues with this response to you, please tell me about in a future post.

    Ok! Mr. Grass! Quiz time, I say a word, you tell the screen the first word that comes to mind. Ready? Sombrero! Did someone say Mexico? Someone in the world did. Someone. Seriously though, who are you kidding, look at pokémon! You have to put in some serious effort not to see it. And if you dont buy that, look at, say, Ludicolo's body (Ludi is the most obvious of the 3, the further Lotad evolves, the stronger the case gets)! That's a poncho if i ever saw one! Look at the [stereo]typical design on it! So, maybe if you look at it in this order: torso, head, torso, head, poncho, head, poncho, sombrero. Try it. Then, seal the deal with the names. TO EVERYONE!!!: Everybody has noticed that every pokémon has a pun/allusion behind it. Note in my writing i usually avoid the word "every" in favor of "usually" (even in this sentence!), because i dont like inventing generalizations. In English, the pokés' names have something relevent that makes sense in English. If you research lexicons and other sources enough, you will find links. Have doubts, ask me one oyu are having probs with, I might be able to help you out (again, avoiding inventing generalizations). The names generated in English reflect the source of the translation. What does the name convey? What should the name say about the poké? Stuff like that. Ask some others; I'm not making this stuff up. Regardless of who comes up with the official names, the point is that they are official and therefore reflect the company/people they are assosiated with. Couple that with the pretty much guaranteed real-world reference in the names and it just begins to look a bit too coincidental to warrant a "Whoops." Maybe if someone can grab us the Japanese names (characters/pictures of name), we can get a direct translation and begin interpretting them. Lotad is Hasuboo; Lombre Hasubero; Ludicolo, Runpapa. There you have the Mexkappans.

    Mr. Grass:
    "I haven't seen any children make a connection between Jynx and blacks. It's always been adults that connected Jynx to stereotyping art."

    That's the point i was making before. Can a kid, a KID (presumably not as old and informed as, lets say their precursor parents) make a truely educated (in every sense of the word) assessment of what something is about? Why do you think you don't see too many political/editorial cartoons for kids? Kids arent known for their interpretive skills. They aren't concerned with what's beyond the face value of stuff, usually. That's why advertisers take advantage of them so many times in commercials, and get the fury of offended parents, for taking advantage of the naiveté of kids! Simple dot connection from this point on. Maybe the Japanese guys didnt want to go slapping hi fives left and right while snickering over what they snuck into a game, TV, and theater, easily outwitting masses of kids for their jollies, but instead think: kids love funny cartoony stuff. We got that old black gag hanging around, it was pretty funny, lets try it out. Simple as that. Again, that could be a scenario, as could this: they have a scheme to scatter subliminal racist messages to the population. A simple mistake, a devious plot to take over the world, we can only speculate about it's origin.

    Mr. Grass:
    "I submit that Jynx may have been intentionally created as a charicature of blacks, but I think it is also possible that the creators were just making what they thought was an amusing character that coincidentally resembles racist art."

    Good, points. I agree more with the former. But where i differ is that i think it was because thye wanted an amusing character (cause) so that justified the creation of Jynx (effect). Let's not forget these charicatures are not strictly U.S. but global. Everyone has their own stereotypes to churn out. The U.S. isnt the only country with a history stained with racism, let us not forget that.

    Aww, yes, smiles and giggles! I thoroughly enjoyed reading this part of your post (the antepenultimate paragraph). I agree with you 100%! Even, my mom! She even gave me a section devoted to this deep-diggers subject in the talk we had over the race thing and the Magic: The Gathering/Yu-Gi-Oh! TCGs (but that's another post). We, Mom and I, both agree that some people actually try to dig deep into something until they find something that relates to the point they are trying to make. Psychics do this all the time. They take advantage of it. They give vague predictions so that the listener can do just this: analyse the prediction to death until a relevent end is reached. My mom says when you have to dig, hunt, and dig some more to find only a weak link behind something to relate it to a point you are making (usually to prove why to abstain from something ie: Certain card games). Also, taking something everso tiny and blowing it way out of proportion to fill their purpose falls into this same catergory. Now, note the Letter, the Lady "[stops] cold," as in imediately--imediately--she is able to recognise what she sees. She has seen enough of the racist stuff to know it when she sees it, as many older people can (and should be able to).

    So, look at the examples you gave. The only accurate one is Xatu. Because right away we can see it. That is how I see the Mexican line, as I am Mexican, so I can tell it when i see it. With Jynx, it took someone to inform me what i was seeing, before i was really able to realize the truth. The other pokés you talk about are blown out of proportion, so they link to both of our thoughts that people take small similarities and blow them up to match what they want. Snorlax...snore....relax....hmm. Well, come on, be sensible, the monster looks nothing like a human, man. If anything, a bear that hibernates. Slaking...(slack/lax...king/ultimate [as in form]) that's reaching a little. They arent mocking the elderly. There is obvious and there is reaching. I give you the obvious: Jynx/Lombre/....

    Let's remember, we aren't desperately hunting down stereotypes to make Pokémon, the brand, look bad. I'M A FAN! Look at the name! I support it through thick and thin. We're in the thick and have i ever said ban the show, burn your cards, chuck your paks? No. They made some OBVIOUS (as in not subtle) blunders in character design. Ok? I only point out the obviously inspired character designs as an observer of the...well, obvious. So, no, these arent dragged out observations, but firmly founded observations that have not gone through extensive dissection to prove my point. Hey, school's back in session, show some teachers. Say you drew up some pictures you want test ractions to. Ask if they are racey if they dont notice. Or even other adults. Show them. Show intelligent adults. The point is to show someone who has seen life and has no veils. You'll see.

    So, just to recap: I am not offended by any of these images. I am kind of proud of the Lombre line, cuz they depict Mexican without slamming them (too much, depending on how you look at it). I recognize how Jynx can legitamitely stir up uneasy feelings in blacks, however I personally am not offended.

    Ok, forget War and Peace, read my anthology, PLX the Posterboy, coming to a Borders near you.

    Get it? Poster-boy? Post-er? Get it? I crack myself up.
     
  18. Mr. Grass

    Mr. Grass New Member

    It is always my pleasure to take part in rational discussions that don't get down into flaming. Lot's of ways to run with this topic come to mind, but as I tried typing them out I realized they all bridged out to other controvertial topics, especially racism. I don't want to stray off topic so I'll keep it short by saying don't edit Jynx out of our pokemon episodes, and let us have the holiday Jynx special. I think I've already made my opinions clear above, so I won't throw in any more.
     
  19. Psycho_Lugia_X

    Psycho_Lugia_X New Member

    the following is to no one in particular, but mainly people who see nothing wrong with jynx...

    You know, at school we're studying Lord of the Flies. My teacher was going over chapter 8 for our review for finals next week. It was the scene where the hunters strike to take down a Mama Pig, which later becomes the Lord of the Flies, himself (or itself, depending on how you look at it]. She confessed that not even SHE understood the hunting scene there until a collegue suggested it as a symbolic scene some time ago. She said whe didnt give that scene a second thought until she actually stopped to think about the ideas conveyed in the passage. She noticed the author's choice of such peculiar words, such powerful words. She noticed there was more to it as she started putting thought to what she read and observed.

    Why bring this up? Because that is exactly how i found out about Jynx. It didnt really occur to me that it was a racial statement until someone prompted my examination of it. Like my teacher had already noticed some interesting diction, I noticed strange features on Jynx. So, when you are given the prompt to what you are observing by someone who has already noticed more than you, it might be enough to help you understand the deeper meaning to something, like the friend and my teacher, like the reports and me.

    Try it out.





    If you want to read this section, check out Lord of the Flies, William Golding, chapter 8, "Gift for the Darkness," p.133-136, starting with, "They spread out..." and ending with "the boys cried with laughter..."---and i do mean check out, hey when's the last time you've been to the library? Then again...you never know what the internet holds for the saavy seeker, i've seen the Oedipus plays online.
     
  20. Mr. Grass

    Mr. Grass New Member

    Heh, yeah. It's like you can't see something is there until someone else tells you that it's there. We all interpret things different ways. We learn to assign meanings to different symbols. Some of these are fairly general. Red=stop Green=go. Then you get to more complicated ones like a red armband with a black swastika in a white circle. People of different cultures tend to interpret symbols different ways. I look at Ludicolo and I see a pineapple duck (yes, what I first thought and still think when I look at it). I look at Jynx and I just see a funny creature in a dress. We just need to be careful about choosing symbols that don't offend the receiver. There have even been a few card art changes with this in mind: Misty's Tears, Moo Moo Milk, and Sabrina's Gaze all have different art in english, and Koga's Ninja Trick has been altered. I'm all for not offending people, but I'm not a big fan of censorship either. We'll just have to try and find that happy medium. :) :unknown-m :unknown-e :unknown-d :unknown-i :unknown-u :unknown-m
     

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