An Unfortunate Event at Indy CC

[TheDarkTwins]

I cant believe all the Professors here giving Ade such a hard time. :nonono: Where is your SotG???

He apologoized, admitted an error and has moved on. Trust me, even if the HJ is the one making the 1st ruling, if a player has a question about it, I dont know too many judges/HJs that wouldnt huddle up with the other judges to discuss this. Yes, the HJ's ruling is final, but you can ask the group to consider it, nicely, I might add. Dont get a penalty yourself by showing poor sportmanship.

Ade: Please understand that when a player or group of players THINK you erred (whether you did or didnt), they will hound you about it. Let it go and move on. You have done more than you needed to here to show your remorse. Judges need thick skin to deal with any whiners around and a compassionate heart to deal with everyone. Many times, when you make a ruling, someone isnt totally pleased with the outcome, even when we are correct a high majority of the time. I've seen so many sour grapes threads here to last a small lifetime. It is one thing to say "IMO, the penalty/result should be X, not Y" It is different when you offer the judge's head up on a platter at the same time.

Keith

I am hoping none of that is directed at me. I have not said that he did a bad job or he made the wrong ruling. All I have done is said what I thought the ruling would/should be. I judge sometimes and do I may mistakes, sure, everyone does. I think the best thing that could happen is you learn from your mistakes. I think the positive is that if something like this comes up Alex will now know exactly what should/shouldnt happen. That is all you can ask of him. I think that he has handle this situation very well. I hope that your next tourney goes better. I wish you (Alex) luck in your next tournament and hope that it doesnt happen again because I wouldnt wish this on anyone.

Drew

 

[Snowball21]

I think with new cards coming out ever so often, a few rules won't cover every situation. That's why I feel this case shouldn't be a game loss. This isn't a person playing a steven's advice and shuffling their hand into their deck. This card involves shuffling cards into the deck and the person made a slight mistake and shuffled in their only card. IMHO, since the card involved shuffling, the situation can be seen as a less severe accident and IMHO the player should lose the card and complete the rest of the supporter.

This isn't based on new card rulings. It's a shuffling ruling, and shouldn't be a ruling based on a single card, but because the opponent shuffled away their hand when that wasn't the correct action.

I feel too many players jump for game losses. They are HAPPY to win by an opponent making a mistake and receiving a game loss. I can understand when a penalty has to be given, but to jump for joy when you win because of that is kind of pathetic. /off-topic

The player in this situation didn't jump for a game loss or even request it, ask Mr. Ade. This is the ruling we were told it should have been after the fact, and I think TheDartTwins post clearly shows it is a game loss within the guidelines. This is not something that can be changed, but I think you presuming too much on the players actions that clearly didn't happen. If that comment was not meant towards this player, I apologize, but then again, it shouldn't have been brought up if so.

 

[Prime]

I didn't say anything about the people involved in the situation. My post was just a general observance.

I don't see how one rule can be used in every situation. This situation is different than normal situations where someone might shuffle their hand into their hand after playing a card that doesn't involve shuffling cards into the deck.

 

[Rainbowgym]

Some people need to realize that GUIDELINES are GUIDES and not written in stone.
As far as I know the penalty guidelines still mention something like "recommended Penalty".

Judge aade8 learned a lot I think in this tournament, but I don't see why you shouldn't judge anymore.
Like each judge you need to make mistakes to become a real good judge.

 

[Snowball21]

Some people need to realize that GUIDELINES are GUIDES and not written in stone.
As far as I know the penalty guidelines still mention something like "recommended Penalty".

Judge aade8 learned a lot I think in this tournament, but I don't see why you shouldn't judge anymore.
Like each judge you need to make mistakes to become a real good judge.

I don't have any problem with him judging. I just think acting as head judge should not be in his immediate future.

 

[Umbreon777]

In my opinion, Alex was merely making his best judgement at the time, without much looking into what trouble the entire situation would cause. I know him personally, and I know that he would never purposely do this sort of thing. These mistakes were entirely by accident. I understand that something must be done, but I dont want his reputation to be ruined either.

-Dustin

 

[Lawman]

Drew: It isnt aimed directly at you at all. That is more of a combo post with the other thread too. Bottom line, we werent there. The people involved admitted their error. To call for a GL after the match is completed is just wrong.

The rule you cited recommends a GL is your hand is shuffled in w/o an effect of a power or card. Clearly, in this situation, there was a card effect requiring you to shuffle in all but 1 card (Rowan).

Now, with that being said, the fix given by the Judge was worse than the original error. Alex Ade already admitted that. But, a group of players ie friends and or family of the losing player CANNOT clamor for a GL for the other player on the bigger error of the JUDGE. As I understand this particular case, the opponent didnt disagree w/ the improper fix by the judge. If she had felt like she had been gamed, she could have appealed AT THAT TIME. Pokemon cannot fix the error POST GAME. Sorry, no ifs, ands or buts about it. Both players agreed to the "fix", both players agreed to the game result by signing the slip.

To Snowball: You are not winning anyone over here with the constant griping. Send a message to OP via email and voice your complaint there. That is your best option. I'd think that PUI would prefer to hear from the actual affected player, or if a JR or SR, their legal guardian/parent. The result is over, mistake admitted, in public even....what more do you want (as Alex Ade previously wondered)??

Keith

 

[Snowball21]

To Snowball: You are not winning anyone over here with the constant griping. Send a message to OP via email and voice your complaint there. That is your best option. I'd think that PUI would prefer to hear from the actual affected player, or if a JR or SR, their legal guardian/parent. The result is over, mistake admitted, in public even....what more do you want (as Alex Ade previously wondered)??

Keith

I'm not trying to win anyone over. It feels more like defending myself from people like you who aren't taking this seriously and backing errors that were made. And as you said, you weren't there, so it's interesting for you to take sides immediately then come after people that were wronged. As I stated in my last post, I presonally don't think he should be the head judge anytime soon. But then again, I'm not the person who was hurt by his lack of experience.

 

[Lawman]

I'm not trying to win anyone over. It feels more like defending myself from people like you who aren't taking this seriously and backing errors that were made. And as you said, you weren't there, so it's interesting for you to take sides immediately then come after people that were wronged. As I stated in my last post, I presonally don't think he should be the head judge anytime soon. But then again, I'm not the person who was hurt by his lack of experience.

I guess you blasted PokePop too, eh?? I'm taking this very seriously. An error was made. Is it a GL error? I dont think so and neither did 'Pop (who happens to be on the ruling team!) You opened yourself up for criticism for blasting on the judge in a public forum. Has an email been sent to PUI about this incident yet? I know PUI will most likely be closed for the holidays and no answer will be given until after the 1st of the year. Still, you said you dont judge tourneys, so how do you know how it feels to be a judge that erred?

Trust me, every judge around has made some type of error in a ruling before. They feel bad. We arent trying to "sugarcoat" anything. Everyone here agrees an error was made. There is no way to fix it now. There was no mechanism in place to fix the error after the match. 'Pop has told you as much already. Time to move on!

Keith

 

[Snowball21]

I haven't blasted anyone. I have simply stated the facts that have happened, and if you look in the original thread, you blew this up. I didn't even give a name of the judge or PTO in my original post and you went on to make a huge post regarding the situation based on a lack of information at the time, so I simply defended myself and the player involved(sad that I was put in that position) and explained what happened. If you want to disagree with what the guidelines say, fine by me, but that isn't my problem. I'll follow what the guidelines say anytime before taking someone's personal opinion on a ruling any given day, which was the original problem in the first place.

This is my last post. If anyone has any questions or wants to discuss this further, please PM me.

 

[Rainbowgym]

I wish we had more headjudges who are as great as this one, who are commiting they made a mistake.
Serious you don't know how lucky you are by having a person who dares to admit he made a mistake (even if it cannot be rewinded).

 

[Regis_Neo]

Eh, mistakes happen all the time. At least you're honest and made the choice you thought was best.

 

[aade8]

Look, I hold no hard feelings toward anyone on this except myself. I feel terrible that I caused this situation, and like I said before, I wish I could take it back. However, I can't.

I'm glad that many realize that I'm human and am fully capable of making errors, even huge ones. I appreciate the understanding.

I also appreciate the discussion on the ruling of this situation. It seems like there may not have been a crystal clear answer (my ruling wasn't correct, I'm not saying it was, but there appears to be debate over what was) and evoked a good argument that may lead to the creation of a solid answer (I'm hoping).

To anyone attempting to make a clear answer for this: I've described the situation the best I can. If there are any details that I left out that you think I may know please ask and I'll try to recall them to the best of my ability.

 

[Alazor]

"Look, I hold no hard feelings toward anyone on this except myself. I feel terrible that I caused this situation, and like I said before, I wish I could take it back. However, I can't.

I'm glad that many realize that I'm human and am fully capable of making errors, even huge ones. I appreciate the understanding.

I also appreciate the discussion on the ruling of this situation. It seems like there may not have been a crystal clear answer (my ruling wasn't correct, I'm not saying it was, but there appears to be debate over what was) and evoked a good argument that may lead to the creation of a solid answer (I'm hoping).

To anyone attempting to make a clear answer for this: I've described the situation the best I can. If there are any details that I left out that you think I may know please ask and I'll try to recall them to the best of my ability."

Personally, as a player if I shuffled my hand in my deck by accident... I'd hate to get a game loss.
I mean just play. I like Rhodesia's ruling.

 

[PokePop]

Well, sad to say that if it had been a case of a hand shuffled into the deck in error, then it would have been a game loss situation.

 

[aade8]

Well, sad to say that if it had been a case of a hand shuffled into the deck in error, then it would have been a game loss situation.

Pop, I appreciate your input, but could you give me a suggestion as to how to proceed? Is there an apologetic avenue that I haven't explored? Being a Moderator, I respect your opinion and would like any suggestions you have on how to go forward (even if your answer is simply 'just go forward').

 

[yelanates]

I don't particularly see how this ruling is particularly terrible. Yes, it was incorrect, but if the player is being honest (and they SHOULD be), then nothing wrong would have resulted and the girl would have lost anyway.

And if it was an honest mistake on the players' part, it shouldn't be game loss, but frobably a warning, right?

 

[hectagonman]

It was ruled in north Texas. This same exact thing happened and he shuffled his hand of 1 card and didn't keep it and he recieved a game loss.

 

[Let Fire Fall]

Big deal, the kid got 1 card that he'd like to have in his hand if he did pick it. The other 4 were still random I'm sure it really didn't make a huge difference.

 

[meganium45]

I'm not 'pop. but I am another PTO coming to your side on this opinion.

How to proceed? You are the HJ. Your ruling stands. You made an "oops" even the best of us do it.

The ruling STILL stands. As long as the ruling was made to the best of your ability, and not with malice or ill will, then PUI will stand behind your ruling and you as the HJ.

You may be privately told to handle it a different way, but, they will not overturn matches or events.

Now, this is a judgment call type ruling...if all the cards were shuffled in, then the player would just draw 4 if it was at one of my events, and get a warning.

In your present situation, the extra card out of the deck was not the player's fault, it was the judge's call.

I have had situations such as this where the judge was standing behind the player and able to verify the card in question, and make the situation whole. Am not sure if you could independently verify, but the only leap of faith you took there was to trust the player to be honest.

Heck, this is minor in what you will face as a HJ. I have had parents get angry with me (not even on a bad ruling), parents get mad at me when their kids lose on rulings, parents get mad at me for my kids beating theirs, parents get mad at me for events going long, players get banned at my events for doing bad stuff (very rarely, but happened), all sorts of entertainment (after 7 years of doing this, I have my battle scars but still LOVE this game and being a PTO and HJ/WJ). As a HJ, this is going to be MINOR in comparison to the fun you have ahead of you.

You pass test #1 for me, maintain the integrity of the event. You have been open and honest in your dealings, first with the players, then with the PTO, and even with this Snowball character who seems to have it out for you (who are you to even suggest a demotion Snowball...step BACK). If you are planning to come to the St. Louis Regional, you have a spot on a judging staff waiting for you. I am impressed with how you have handled yourself (Derek will probably snatch you first).

Thanks

Vince