Are marathons good for the game?

[Top Cut Comics]

Hello players...

I decided to write this after having firsthand experience in organizing and executing a city championship marathon. I have a variety of opinions on this event and would like to see what the overall consensus is from the players that participated in these events, as well as, the traditional city weekend events.

I really had no expectations about how a marathon was supposed to go. I had not attended one, nor have I ever attempted to organize an event of this level. I decided to take this challenge on for a variety of reasons. Players lobbying and personal curiosity to learn how to operate under pressure, were the main reasons for the undertaking of a marathon.

The first thing I want players to understand is.... This is EXAHSTING for the staff. I will give you the day by day breakdown of our events.

Day 1... up at 630am leave house at 730am to ensure proper setup at the venue.
tournament over at 730pm and home at 8pm
upload event and hit bed at 1030pm

Day 2... up at 530am leave house at 630am to get to the venue by 730 to ensure proper setup
Tournament over at 8pm and home at 930pm
Upload event and hit bed at 1130pm

Day 3... up at 630am leave house at 730am to get to the venue by 8am to ensure proper setup
tournament over at 8pm (due to sudden death in all top cut rounds) Thanks TAD!!!
Home at 9pm, upload, and bed at 11pm.

Day 4,5,6 see above. Only difference was we got out at 6pm the last 3 days of the event. So I was able to get some more sleep and FINALLY got a decent meal in me. Fast food kills during these events.

As you can see it is quite a draining run of events. We were the first ones there and last ones to leave. I hope the players appreciate the grind all the PTO's put in to ensure they have a great tournament experience. I applaud all of you for what you do.

Next, I would like to hear some opinions about marathon vs. traditional weekend events. After going through the marathon, I believe they are overall good for attendance across the board, NOT just for the marathon. Let me explain....

I had roughly a 62% increase in attendance vs. last year. However, looking at the numbers, I believe that the areas adjacent to Chicago, like Wisconsin, Indiana, and Michigan have seen an moderate increase in attendance as well. I attribute this to less competition during weekends. Since I am not running my normal weekend events this year, my local area players are traveling more to other events. This is good for attendance across the board and not just for the marathon host.

I also had a TON of positive feedback from the players. I was extremely encouraged that we clearly made the right choice in hosting a marathon vs. traditional weekend events. I was quite hesitant, at first, to hold a marathon. I am traditionally a creature of habit and not real open to fixing something that isn't broken. Weekend events worked well for us and I didn't want to lose that dedication from the players. Fortunately we did not.

With all this being said.... I started to wonder something....

Are Marathons good or bad for the game?

I know the complaints I am going to hear...

"They give too much of an advantage to players who can attend them"
"I can't afford to travel to attend these events"
"They are too far from me"
"I got a job and can't work during these events."

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the new points system make it more fair for all players no matter how many events the competition attend? I think PUI put this system in place to ENCOURAGE more play.

All of the above are legitimate reasons to dislike marathons as a whole. However, there are some other reasons why marathons can be good for the game.

"Marathons encourage family travel during time off from school"
"Marathons tend to have higher attendance and more fierce competition"
"Marathons are good for individual community building efforts"
"Marathons encourage a larger gathering of players promoting a great game"

These are just some of the reasons I believe Marathons are GREAT for the game as a whole. If you look at some of the cons, they are more from an individual's perspective. Whereas the pros tend to benefit the game as a whole. Maybe it's me but I think the overall growth and stability of the game is much larger than the issues of an individual.

I really want to take some time to thank the players for supporting us in our growth and learning. I also want to thank all the PTO's who have blazed the unchartered path and dedicated all of their time and efforts to make marathons a great thing for the players. You are all truly amazing.

Jimmy and Debbie
Top cut comics

 

[vaporeon]

That's about how it goes for me. it does favor those who can pay to go to these events. My job won't let me get a day off to play in a tournament let alone a week. Also not having a car hurts as well because I have to rely on someone who can go. This is one of the reasons I can't play in tournaments higher then States.

It's good because it helps the game grow but that's about it.

 

[bullados]

Ya don't always have to "go it alone", Jimmy. You've got at least two, possibly three, other Organizers within a reasonable driving distance who are more than willing to take a couple days of a Marathon so that you can get some rest in between. I know that Georgia does theirs with 3 Organizers. SoCal was done with at least that many. I don't know who was running Jersey other than Pop, Ontario other than Marvin&Family, and Texas. But if you can partner with other TOs and PTOs within reasonable driving distance, it will dramatically reduce the stress on you and your staff.

I are that Marathons; if spread out in a reasonable manner geographically; run by good and efficient organizers in proper tournament locations; and run by a partnership of organizers; are a positive force for this game. Numbers sell the game to the competitive crowd, and they tend to attract more media attention, which advertises the game to parents. The marathons allow attendance increases not only in the areas where the marathons are happening, but also in the surrounding areas while the marathons are NOT happening. And they allow more players the ability to play in more events, which can only be classified as a "good thing". I love them, I love playing in them, I love staffing in them, and I hope they continue.

 

[gallade]

If there was official marathons that could be attended relatively easily by most pokemon areas, i would be all for it, but in the current system, we are just too unbalanced in some places.

 

[GodBlessAmerica]

If the invite system was still ELO only and there were no Championship Points involved, I would say that Marathons are bad for the game for the reason stated above that it gives a big advantage to those who can attend

However, with the new system, only 5 of the cities you attend count. And getting top cut in a marathon event is really, really hard. Seriously, each marathon is populated by some of the best players in the world. Playing at the NJ marathon felt like playing states 4 days in a row. Having to compete with the sauk brothers, the Diaz brothers, Luke Reed, Mike Pramawat, Justin Bohkari, Dylan Bryan, Dylan Lefavour, Sam Ligget, Curran Hill, Andrew Krekeler, and many many more in tournaments where you have to go 6-1 to guarantee making top cut is hard. If you can gain Championship Points from marathon events, you deserve them. Does it give an advantage to players who can attend? Yes, but it isn't that big an advantage. Sam Chen could only attend 5 Cities and Top 4'd two of them, got second at one, and won another followed by going 3-2 at the final one. I attended the marathon and I haven't earned as much points as he has. This is proof that you don't need to attend any marathon to get enough championship points from Cities.

tl;dr The advantage of going to Marathons is smaller than it used to be. And earning points from these events is a huge accomplishment and if you can top 8 any of them you earned those points

 

[Jaeger]

I think the idea of marathons is good for the game, I think alot of work needs to be done into making it balanced though.

 

[TAndrewT]

Sounds like the disadvantages are related to the "system" and to CP point advantages they potentially give players. The advantage is that they are awesome to play in. I'll take awesome to play in any day.

So major praise to all the TO's that put together the marathons. There are people who drive hundreds of miles, fly in from other countries even, just to go to these events. If you are convincing those folks to give up other vacation opportunities to spend their days in public libraries and town halls across Chicagoland, you must be doing something fantastic. I took a break from my family vacay to do just one day at the SoCal marathon, and it made me wish I could stay for the whole thing. I may not ever be able to go to any. But I hope you keep doing them!

 

[z-man]

First off, I have a deep respect for any PTOs, TOs, Judges, and location owners who are willing to put up with marathons. You guys are amazing. I doubt I would have that much patience for 6 days.

Marathons are a give and take. They cost quite a bit to go to (hotels and driving costs a lot). Moreover, you are not certain to receive points from them even if you attend an entire week. I only received points from two cities out of the 7 I went to in Georgia marathon. The economic costs are really dependent on how you value your city events. They are spread out enough that money isn't THAT big of an issue. CA, TX, IL, NJ, GA, and FA cover most corners of the US. Find the closest one near you, and attend. They still cost a lot, but that cost is manageable.

That being said, they are a lot of fun and allow for many chances to score CP. In that respect, they are very good. They attract very good players, so they will be very difficult events to do well in. Regardless, they present many chances to receive points.


Now then, players currently are not punished for not making a marathon. The best limit is set at 5 cities right now. Wherever you live, there will probably be at least 5 cities within driving distance of you. As a result, you can cap your CP without having to attend a marathon. Now if the best limit were set to 7 or 8, that would be absurd and would give huge advantage to those willing to attend marathons.


So... yeah... good thing for now. The moment players unwilling to travel too far are punished for not going to marathons, I will oppose them. The best limit mechanic is what really decides this, and it is right where it needs to be as far as I am concerned...

 

[sdrawkcab]

As far as the orginizing goes, often its a group of 2-3 PTO's getting togeather and teaming up so the same arn't working open-close shifts every day.

 

[Ness]

Nothing that allows players to enjoy the game more often is going to be bad for the game. Marathons were enjoyed by hundreds of people across the country, including myself.

Let's not create problems where there are one. No one's complaining. We all had a blast. Thanks for all the work you & all the other PTOs did to allow us to enjoy these tournaments.

 

[NoPoke]

marathons do not favour ELO over CP or vice versa. Marathons are not more or less appropriate under the new system when compared to the old.

Why? Because as implemented the old ELO system had a very strong reward component. The annual reset saw to that.

If you want me to say which system inherentlty works better with marathons then I'd have to say elo. A system like elo wants players to have lots of games to get to a stable rating. Whereas a pure reward system will primarily show linear inflation as players play more games. The non-linearity in the CP system is very abrupt, with elo it is gentle. It will be very interesting to see what these very differnt non-linearities do to the final distribution.

As long as there are no late season marathons with high CPs available I don't think we will see the very worst outcomes of a CP system. So that and the annual elo reset has me fairly neutral on marthons and either rating system.

---------- Post added 01/04/2012 at 09:25 AM ----------

. Does it give an advantage to players who can attend? Yes, but it isn't that big an advantage.

WOW! So it isn't a big advantage to be able to attend lots of events when the only way to get an invite via CPs is to attend lots of events????

The current leader in CPs has 58 points.​

Let that sink in for a while before saying that a reward only system does not favour those that can go to the most events. Just how do you get 58 points without attending lots and lots of events?​

Anyway, in more detail

----NA (USA, Canada & Mexico)-----


_1st place in NA by age is Ma:44, Sr:56, Jr:53
25th place in NA by age is Ma:29, Sr:33, Jr:36
50th place in NA by age is Ma:24, Sr:26, Jr:28

That 25th place is a guess at the current bar for an invite to Worlds, and with a CP system the bar is only ever going to go up!

Top 50 NA masters have elos >1700 (ish)
48th place NA senior has an elo of 1633
3rd place NA junior has an elo of 1677 (with lower elos in the top 50)

----Europe not that many on this board will care grrr and lol-----

_1st place in Europe by age is Ma:38, Sr:58, Jr:47
25th place in Europe by age is Ma:18, Sr:18, Jr:16
50th place in Europe by age is Ma:12, Sr:11, Jr:10

37th place EU master has an elo of 1609
18th place EU senior has an elo of 1606 (with even lower elos in the top 50)
7th place EU junior has an elo of 1600 (with even lower elos in the top 50)

That last figure is not a mistake 31 championship points and a par elo rating. I hope that by the end of the season Europe has significantly higher elos in the top 50. It looks mad right now.

 

[PokePop]

I can't imagine running 6 marathon events by myself, Jimmy!
The 4 in a row that I do is about my max. I guess I could push through for more, but I'm happy to hand off to Lori for the 5th event in North Jersey.

One thing I did this year in planning my judges was to make sure that I spread the work out among a large group of staff.
Lori was my HJ for the first 3 events, but I had her not work at all on the 4th so that she'd be fresh for her 5th one as a TO.
I'll also say that running it the second time around was easier than the first time. My venues were already primed, I had a reasonable expectation of attendance, and made sure I had seating to meet that.


For those that say that this gives more events for people to attend, I'll note two things:
Four marathons were running during the same week. Players had to choose which one to go to. They can't go to them all.
We don't get extra City Championships to run in a Marathon event. I would have run the exact same number of events as I did last week, they just would have been spread over a few weekends. So there is no extra events that people are getting to. What marathons do provide is a concentrated focus by a group of players to make most if not all of those events, boosting attendance, and therefore competition.

I think that's good for the game

 

[losjackal]

I am not disputing your overall point, NoPoke, only adding some more facts for everyone to read:

The current leader in CPs has 58 points.​

The theoretical maximum points anyone could have earned (in the US) right now is 56.

• 8 x 2 = 16 for Battle Roads
• 1 x 10 = 10 for Regionals
• 5 x 6 = 30 for Cities

The current CP rankings are inflated for everyone by the fact that they are taking into account more than 5 best place finishes for Cities. When corrected, the CPs will be just a little more equalized.

The people at the top of this list worldwide are still exceptional, and will likely still be the point leaders. But the Juniors and Senior have much less competition, thus it's easier to repeat wins. You have to scroll down to #23 to find a Master.

So readjusting the view to see Masters in North America, the leader has 44 points. 5 more are tied at 37. 20th place has 30 points. 40th has 25.


The purpose of the CP system is to identify the best players. In the current format, I've seen so much deck diversity that while you may be able to predict 2 or 3 people per event who will make Top Cut, it's impossible to determine who will win. That means the more tournaments someone can attend, the more chances they have at Top Cutting.

If someone is unable to attend a marathon, they may still attend 2 or 3 and earn their points with stellar finishes, but the odds are against them. Could one of these players be "better" than someone grinding the marathons? Absolutely. But the game has to limit itself to not finding the theoretical best.....it has to identify the best among the people competing in the tournaments.


I have sympathy for the people who favored the occasional weekend tournament rather than the marathon tournaments during the week. Granted these people won't likely end up with enough CPs for a Worlds invite, but they also missed out on the chance to play the game locally. This might be the small minority in comparison, but it's a fact.

Another fact is that we don't know what the attendance in Chicago would have been had it not been a marathon. The CP system is encouraging higher attendance across the board. We probably can anecdotally remove the out-of-state players from the attendance list to estimate the numbers. And come to think of it, aren't they getting the most benefit from this? They get to attend an out-of-state marathon, along with their local events.


tl;dr:Going to more events gives you more chances to win CPs. A marathon allows a player to concentrate their attendance. Players that attend marathons are probably the most dedicated and the most skilled. All in all, marathons are probably a good thing to determine the best players, but it does take a little away from the more casual players unable to attend tournaments during the week.

 

[bullados]

As far as Chicago Cities attendances, I believe the average has been around 55-60 in previous years. This year, it was 95. Some of that could be attributed to the change to CPs from ELO. IMO, most of it is attributable to the Marathon and hosting events on dates where there were no City Championships for over 250 miles in any direction. And I believe (based on Jimmy's OP) that the other events in the surrounding area (Illinois, Wisconsin, Indiana, Michigan) also saw minor attendance bumps, likely due to the combination of CPs and a lack of competition from other tournaments.

 

[NoPoke]

The NA masters table does indicate that the better players are rising to the top. The same can not be said for other age groups or outside NA. That is not based upon the names in any of the lists but a comparison between rating and CPs - there ought to be positive correlation between them.

@Pokepop: You are correct that there are no more events in NA. That is not the case for Europe.

@bullados: To attribute the increase in attendance to marathon events you would have to show that players came from further away than for non-marathon events. I'm not at all sure how to do that. In areas like the NE which have a lot of events (though not more events) I doubt that the catchment area for events has increased enough to account for the increase in attendance this year. Which would leave the new CP system as the most likely reason for the increases seen so far.

If I was to speculate as to why the CP system drives increased attendance then I would be including the need to qualify for nationals by playing at multiple events ( >10 Play! points) in any case I'd put forward..

 

[PokePop]

@bullados: To attribute the increase in attendance to marathon events you would have to show that players came from further away than for non-marathon events. I'm not at all sure how to do that. In areas like the NE which have a lot of events (though not more events) I doubt that the catchment area for events has increased enough to account for the increase in attendance this year. Which would leave the new CP system as the most likely reason for the increases seen so far.

I don't know about that.
I've seen a lot of reported attendances, this year vs last year, and the impression that I'm getting is that most non-marathon events are seeing about the same attendance as last year, pluses and minuses averaging out.

However, most places that have switched to a marathon format have seen significant increases.
Chicago just switched and they saw a 66% increase.
Last year, I saw a 39% increase when I went from weekends to a marathon, and that was with a 24 inch blizzard! From last year to this year, I saw a further 40% increase in attendance.
Or, skipping the blizzard year, we had a 95% increase in attendance from weekend events to a non-blizzard marathon.

Georgia's marathon has regularly been getting 100+ players attending.

I think it is clear that marathons give a big boost to attendance.

As for players coming from further away, we had a significant attendance coming from far away, such as from Virginia, Albany, St. Louis, and California.
I had a local family that had been traveling down to GA for their marathon that decided to stay for the local marathon instead of traveling.

I think that when there was one marathon going on, things got a bit skewed, but as more TOs are running them in different parts of the country (can't speak for Europe), the availability of these marathons is opening up to a wider range of players and making access more fair.
That I know of, we have had marathons in FL, GA, NJ, IL, and CA this time around.
It's a lot of an investment in time and prep for a PTO to arrange these things, but I think the payoff in terms of player participation and excitement is definitely there.
GA is still the king of marathons since they have 3 or 4 TOs and PTOs coordinating a longer series, but even a series of 3 or 4 events can make for a happy player base.

 

[NoPoke]

Mike, BRAutumn attendances for the whole of NA are up by 27% on last year. The complete figures aren't available for Citys yet but I'd expect the CP system to lead to a greater than 27% increase in attendance at Cities as there are more points available.

I'm not discounting the effect of marathons upon attendance. I am pointing out that there is going to be a strong effect from the change to CPs.

Figures for NJ CCs

2011-2012 554 with one event to go (6/7 complete)
2010-2011 485 for all 7 events
2009-2010 388 for all 7 events
2008-2009 359 for all 6 events

 

[JohnnyBlaze]

I agree that the marathons are a great thing for the game. Unfortunatley I cant take the necessary time off of work to attend any as I save my time for NATS and Worlds.

 

[PokePop]

Figures for NJ CCs

2011-2012 554 with one event to go (6/7 complete)
2010-2011 485 for all 7 events
2009-2010 388 for all 7 events
2008-2009 359 for all 6 events

But you're mixing in Marathon and non-Marathon events in there.

Also, with an increase of 1 event from 08-09 to 09-10, I'd call that flat.
Average attendance went from 59/event to 56/event.
Almost all of the increase from 09-10 to 10-11 was my first marathon, where I saw an increase of 79 from one year to the next. That means the other 3 events saw an increase of 18 players, or 6/event. Their average had been 62, so that's a 9.5% increase for the non-marathon and an increase of 39% for the marathon.

The last NJ event is Randolph and I happen to have those numbers: 7JR 20SR 38MR, total 68
Last year, that event was located in Denville and it had 66 players. So, an increase of 2, or 3%

That gives:

2011-2012 622 for all 7 events
2010-2011 485 for all 7 events

The Denville event actually was part of the marathon this year. Looks like the extra distance hurt it a bit this time around.

In any event, separating Marathon events from non-marathon, we have:

2011-2012: 459 marathon & 163 non-marathon
2010-2011: 346 marathon (including Denville, for tracking purposes) & 139
Year over year Growth of events participating in Marathon: 113 or 33%
Year over year Growth of events not participating in Marathon: 24 or 17%

Now, we have a year where the switch to a marathon happened with a blizzard, so I'd like to compare 2009-2010 to 2011-2012 to remove that depressing event (pun intended) from the numbers.

2011-2012: 459 marathon & 163 non-marathon
2009-2010: 250 "pre-marathon" & 138 non-marathon
Growth from non-marathon to marathon locations: 209 or 84%
Growth from non-participating NJ locations: 25 or 18%

On a side note, you can possibly attribute most of the growth in the non-participating locations to the change to CPs. That would be 17% or so. It's a very small data set, though. One would want to do an analysis across the country to get a clearer view.
But it looks like, clear weather accounted for, that going to a marathon accounted for about 65% growth, removing about 20% for growth due to CPs.

 

[chrataxe]

It seems this pops up every year, with the same whiney argument. IF YOU CAN'T GO TO A MARATHON, you aren't dedicating the same time to the game as those that can. Yeah, it sucks. And, it may suck that your life sucks more than someone else, but that is life. Yes, it is unfair that some people can go to marathons and rack up tons of points while others can't. Its also unfair that those that can go to marathons and do show that dedication, goes unrewarded (if you believe they are bad for the game). Its a pretty simple concept, really: you go to a marathon, regardless of how or why, you get rewarded for your time to the game. If you don't, regardless of why, you shouldn't be able to reap the same rewards. I went to 4 of 5 days in DFW (only missed the last day due to some unforeseen non-pokemon related personal issues) and by doing so, I had to burn a weeks vacation and put up with my father-in-law for half the time and shell out the dough for a hotel a few days and the gas money to drive 6 hours there and back, plus all over the metroplex while there, and our food every day. It wasn't cheap and I don't particularly like burning that much vacation all at once, but that is the reason for the high payoff. If your job won't let you off or you don't have the money, that isn't Pokemon's fault, quit trying to ruin it for everyone else.