Bastiodon beats Kingdra and Empoleon

Discussion in 'Cards: Strategy and Rulings Discussion' started by Grinning_Gengar, Sep 21, 2008.

  1. Grinning_Gengar

    Grinning_Gengar New Member

    I have been play testing my Kingdra and Empoleon decks against my brother in law for the last few weeks and have really been working him over until last night when he pulled out a Bastidon deck.

    At first I laughed at him because I figured I would just out speed him but I didn't count on just how crippling Protective Wall would be. His strategies was to Rare Candy a Bastidon on to the bench ASAP, and then stall for as many turns as it takes to build up the Bastidons which we would basically swarm out. Let me tell you when you are facing Anger Revenge and you know you are going to lose your Claydol if you keep attacking it become a very tough match up.

    My best strategy was Warp point away the bench damage but that was only for 3 turns. Very tough match up for non fire spread decks.

    Can we look at this match up and offer some advise for both decks. I would love to see if there is a way to really improve the Bastidon deck and look at Techs to put into Kingdra or Empoleon and even Froslass to counter a spread stopper.

    The Bastidon deck ran Claydol, Jirachi and the Metal Heatran which was a bad idea against a water deck but he likes the big damage from coin flips since he is a lucky flipper and I think he was building in a counter to my Mag-Leaf deck I play sometimes. He ran plenty of Fossil Excavator, Energy Switch and Energy Pick Up along with your standard trainer set up.

    The first thing I thought of was Magnezone Lv.X but a second stage 2 line might slow it down even more then it is.

    As a counter to Bastidon in a water spread deck so far Warp Point is the best idea I can come up with.
  2. Delirium Trigger

    Delirium Trigger New Member

    How would Warp Point help?
    I mean you may get a weaker Pokemon up and OHKO it, but then Bastiodon just comes back up and you're stuck in the same situation.

    Froslass is the best matchup, I think because you're putting the Bastiodon to sleep so theres the 50/50 chance it will stay asleep. The whole idea runs on chance though.
    But then you have to consider Froslass has the weakness, and low HP. Destiny Bond could stall it I guess.

    Kingdra can take three hits from Bastiodon without being KO'd, if they don't use Buck's/Pluspower.
    It would take alot of energy in discard to knock out a Bastiodon, especially if they stack special metal.

    Empoleon has the worst chances. It can only hit for the 30 unless its powered up for Surf Together. Even then you max out at 110, then they can have their special metals, etc.

    I have no idea what you could tech against Bastiodon lol
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2008
  3. Dennis Hawk

    Dennis Hawk New Member

    How is Froslass a best matchup? Bastiodon decks swarm with Unown G, so you just end up doing 40-metals and getting hit 80+40 back. At least the damage counters go through Bastiodon's body.

    I guess Palkia Lv.X is the way to go around it. Then again, not all decks can use it effectively.
  4. Grinning_Gengar

    Grinning_Gengar New Member

    The Warp point lets you continue to do damage with out having to take the extra 40 to the bench on the following turn. It might be just enough to get a prize ahead of Bastidon or at least keep your Claydol alive another turn or two.

    Froslass is really more in trouble then the other two water spread deck due to weakness.

    I actually feel Empoleon has the best match up due to Surf Together being able to do 100 damage. It is the only one of the 3 that can easily switch to straight in your face damage.

    Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

    That is a great suggestion, to add a few Unknown G to Bastidon. Thats the kind of great input I am looking for.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2008
  5. Dr. Mason

    Dr. Mason New Member

    Yeah, it's funny how no one is willing to take that deck seriously, but it's not half bad. He does need a partner though, something that can hold its own for a while while you get up a Bastiodon, seeing as there is no Metal energy accel.
  6. ashinto

    ashinto New Member

    i like it, but in this deck u got to tech in a 1-0-1 line of magnazone for the free retreat.
  7. AlanJLegend

    AlanJLegend New Member

    Have you considered putting in a couple of TS-2?

    If he rare candies into a Bastiodon you can devolve it back down to it's basic stage. Sure your turn ends, but he has has effectively lost his rare candy and may not have another one in his hand.
  8. octillery49

    octillery49 New Member

    I don't think Bastiodon is a bad deck, but, I think that it makes a better tech.

    As for a counter I have no idea.
  9. The Knee

    The Knee New Member

    Torkoal would be an anti Bastiodon tech in most decks. It can usually score the 2 hit KO(Via flips, or no sp.Metal on Bastiodon, or pluspower, etc.) 2 energies, one colorless 70 damage before reduction. No anger revenge on your bench while fighting him. Chance of para and burn, nearly no way for bastiodon to OHKO you. I think it would be the anti Bastiodon tech of choice if it were to ever actually catch on.
  10. ApachePrime

    ApachePrime New Member

    How does the Warp Point help? To bring it out and damage it? It doesn't need to be active for it's pokebody to be active.
  11. SirKibbleX

    SirKibbleX New Member

    I think a lot of stage 2 decks should run this as a tech now, seeing how much spread there is in this format. I don't think you can swarm it, really, because of the high energy cost, but wow what a tanker this guy is.
  12. Grinning_Gengar

    Grinning_Gengar New Member

    Warp point is to counter that nasty 40 to the bench on the following turn he takes damage. KOing Claydol in 2 turns is very crippling to most speed and spread decks.

    Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

    My brother inlaw has adjusted his deck to run Togekiss now and this has made the deck a beast. He really did pull a turn 3 fully charged up bastidon on me last night. I am about to toss my Kingdras back in to the binder.

    Looks like Empoleon and Omastar are my best bet now and that match is still in his favor if he is carefull with his Rare Candys. Torkoal is a decent fire basic and can protect me from the Anger Revenge's 40 to the bench, but that will be a tough card to tech into a Empoleon deck.

    I really like how the Meta this season is shaping to be so broad. It seams there is a counter to every type of deck. In my opinion that is a good thing :smile:
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2008
  13. Blaziken 1111

    Blaziken 1111 New Member

    It doesn't stop frosslass and bronzong which hurts plus it makes the decks slower. It's a horrible tech and I think is only good when swarmed.
  14. MrMeches

    MrMeches New Member

    Try a 2-2-2-2 Zone LvX Line. this allows for a secondary attacker and the option of protecting your energy! Nice deck idea though!!
  15. ApachePrime

    ApachePrime New Member

    That still doesn't help your spread. If he was damaged, whether on the bench or active, his attack still does 40 to the bench if he attacks the next turn. I don't see a warp point helping much to do anything but annoy.
  16. mrdraz07

    mrdraz07 New Member

    ...Mr. Mime...

    It's an early game wall to let you charge up Bastiodon, then you can just Q it and start tanking with Basty.

    I convinced someone not to play it yesterday since we had no good build/testing with it, and there was only 1 of each of Kingdra, Empoleon, and Froslass in our division (and I was the Kingdra, so naturally I didn't want to play against it lol).
  17. kingofgames

    kingofgames New Member

    i dont see how kingra loses to this deck. it gets 2 hit ko'd by kingdra if u havea pluspower/bucks, and it is way too slow, especially the double metal energy
  18. Grinning_Gengar

    Grinning_Gengar New Member

    Right so you warp point him out of the way and deal damage to something else.
    The last few games it has been a battle of attrition trading hits of 60. Kingdra has the advantage of low energy requirements, Bastidon has the advantage of that 40 to the bench and Special energy, just remember you will be without Claydol in 2 turns so every time you Dragon Pump you have fewer and fewer cards to dump.

    I am not saying it is an auto win I am saying it is a tough match up and anything that slows the Bastidon like warp point is an advantage. It is just how amazing how important that 20 to the bench is to the Kingdra deck it really is one of the keys to the success of the deck.

    Build the deck and play it smartly and you might be surprised. On paper it doesn’t look so bad but in practice it is.
  19. UnKnOwN 111

    UnKnOwN 111 New Member

    A 4-3 Furret would be the best way to play it since you can search out the bastiodon lines and attach energy to the furret then after the second turn you can have 2 energy on the furret and just baton pass to a bastiodon so they can hit you and you can hit back for 80 and 40 to a bench next turn....

  20. Grinning_Gengar

    Grinning_Gengar New Member

    I think you are right, Mr Mime is the perfect solution and it blocks the Dual Splash attack from Empoleon if Bastidon is on the bench.

    Wow that is an evil card, it forces your opponent to be as slow as Bastidon.

    Mr Mime is the ultimate speed bump.

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