Bluffing and SOTG

Discussion in 'Cards: Strategy and Rulings Discussion' started by SteveP, Apr 14, 2008.

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  1. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    As a recent premier event I was helping judge, I witnessed a player using a bluffing tactic. At first, I merely considered it a strategic move. The bluff involved searching his deck, sighing in frustration, then pointing at his prizes and bench, making his opponent "think" that the cards he needed were prized. In reality, he actually retrieved the cards he needed and put them into his hand.

    His opponent was a seasoned player and appeared unaffected by the bluff. Regardless, I later researched the rules in order to find penalties specifically forbidding bluffing. The SOTG mentioned Honesty, but it's in regards to misplays. I'm not convinced it rules out bluffing your opponent into making a strategic move.

    So, what are your thoughts? Is bluffing, in any way, shape, or form, legal?

    The only thing I would consider wrong is if your bluffing caused your opponent to make a misplay. But, if the bluffing merely caused your opponent to perform a different legal move, then I'd say bluffing is OK.

    For example, let's say you're holding the card in your hand that will enable you to win next turn after your opponent KO's your defending Pokemon. On your turn you say, "Man! I knew I should've put Scrambles in my deck." Your opponent KO's your Pokemon, after which you play Scramble and KO your opponent's EX Pokemon for the win.
  2. Lawman

    Lawman Active Member

    The opponent doesnt have to believe you either. If they want to play that wager, they can or a different supporter. Trying to make the opponent THINK the card you need is prized, etc is part of the game. Many games are won or lost on the head games that have been used previously, sometimes many tourneys back.

    Look at it this way...say player A lays down a TGW. Both shuffle hands in and as they shuffle, player B says....."I always throw rock" They play the game and A, thinking B will never throw rock, throws scissors thinking he will either tie him or beat the paper. Sure enough, B throws rock and crushes the scissors. Gamesmanship? Jedi mind games?? The TRUTH...OMG! Then, next wager gets played....B says.."you know, I always throw rock"....A thinks...I fell for that once, not twice....he is telling me the truth....he tosses paper to beat the rock and B tosses SCISSORS FTW. So....what now? I just laugh and think A got played twice by mind games. Any different than your scenario?? I dont really think so.


  3. drmario

    drmario New Member

    Yes you can do it. Even having no reaction to something can be a bluff. And besides how could you possibly prevent it?
  4. votalesin

    votalesin New Member

    Bluffing has been a part of every TCG since the incarnation of Magic long ago. Directly lying to your opponent is something that must been handled by your own conscience, not judging staff.
  5. lolganium

    lolganium New Member

    i think, at the end of the day, pokemon is still just a card game. bluff extremes vary, and i supose, if you can you probably would and possibly should. its part of skill. bluffing someone is a skill, and should be exploited as much as poss
  6. yoshi1001

    yoshi1001 New Member

    It would depend on how the bluff was being used. If it extended beyond the scope of the game (for example, was being rude, insulting, bullying, etc.), that would definitely violate SOTG and be cause for a penalty.

    The example you gave seems okay to me, but I could definitely see ways this could be abused.
  7. lolganium

    lolganium New Member

    yeah, but then its just plain nasty
  8. meganium45

    meganium45 Active Member

    I see the issue, but here is the problem...draw the line.

    We are not requiring players to reveal their hands, so where EXACTLY would you suggest drawing the line...

    All In.

    Only a donkey would make that call.

    That's how we DOOOO ITTTTTT!!!

  9. Muscovy Level X

    Muscovy Level X New Member

    It depends. If they don't actualy cheat, they aren't breaking a rule. But I don't agree on bluffing with youger players, because that sn't really fair. But in the end, it doesn't really effect your decisions anyways, weather your opponent is confident or not.
  10. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    Yeah, I suppose the word "bluff" is a PC way to say lie or deception.

    I like your RPS example Keith.

    Bluffing and card games are inseparable.
  11. Dark Weedle

    Dark Weedle New Member

    why does everything need to be penalized?
  12. yoshi1001

    yoshi1001 New Member

    Ever played solitare (or war)?

    I think we're talking about two different things here. Making things sound better/worse than they actually are is fine. What you're worried about goes well beyond that.

    However, I would not like to see a culture where blatant misreprestaion becomes the course of the day, as it probably wouldn't be good for the health of the community if every word provoked a second thought.
  13. Muscovy Level X

    Muscovy Level X New Member

    It's an argument of ethics. It's "is it right to fool yur opponent or not?"
  14. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    Put bluffing in the context of gaming, not in real-life situations, though real-life bluffing can come in handy too. "Hey honey, do I look fat?"
  15. Muscovy Level X

    Muscovy Level X New Member

    Personaly, I don't mind. It's all part of card games. Just look at any other card game!
    It's just one of those logic things. We all react to not only what we know are opponent has, but also to if we think they have something up their sleve (not literaly, though I suspect some do).
  16. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    What are the Poker Pro Tour rules if a player says "I don't have the King" and they're lying?
  17. yoshi1001

    yoshi1001 New Member

    But when you go to a Poker game you expect people to lie.

    About poker.

    I'm not so sure that players would make the same distinct division between in-game and out-of game in Pokemon.

    You have to remember, Pokemon is a more social game than poker (particularly when the latter is at the highest levels).
  18. SPARTA

    SPARTA New Member

    There is nothing wrong with bieng intelegent enough to utilize bluffing technicques. Going beyond that would be bad, but just bluffing is perfectly legal.
  19. The Gorn

    The Gorn Active Member

    I used to always put a Crawdaunt ex on top of my deck, face up. When I pulled my deck from the box, I would set it on the table so my opponent could see, as I stashed my bag and such beneath my chair.

    I would see the Crawdaunt ex and quickly put it into my pocket.

    Of course, the Crawdaunt ex wasn't part of my deck. It was just a "lucky card."

    You would not believe how many times my opponent would make sure that they put no more than 3 Pokemon on their bench.

    I'm not sure why...
  20. DarthPika

    DarthPika New Member

    I love using that RPS strategy, its sooooooooooooooo much fun to do. The problem is every now and then you come across someone who is either very trusting or very gullible and they through paper. :rolleyes:

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