BT's Origins Report! Controversy over, back on topic please.

[Bobby]

Tom is grinding, ftwwww

Dude demon baby is my ALLAH

Have fun getting owned by latias? I bet you did im a pokemon MASTEEEERRRRRRR

cya at worlds

 

[Shellshock929]

TPC 4 LIFE! GJ BT even though you didn't make the cut. GL at worlds and I will see ya there!

-Peter

 

[Lawman]

if you read the report the judges decision was the prize penalty but after talking to Vince they changed it to a loss. He had no right to do that....

If you read the tournament penalty guidelines (like I have since I judge many tourneys!!!)....the HJ makes the call on game loss, not the other judges!! If a judge makes an incorrect call, the HJ can overrule him/her! Scooping prizes, depending on how far/close those cards got to the players deck can make a HUGE difference on what the appropriate penalty should be. In fact, this very scenario has been discussed on the Professor forums, wherein Mike L. (POP employee and OP manager) stated his opinion in that thread. Vince likewise stated an opinion (as did I) in that thread. The resolution, although harsh, would normally be a game loss. So, even IF Vince stated an opinion on the issue.....it was the RIGHT CALL if the prizes were in fact scooped prematurely into the hand/deck.

Remember, it is still BOTH players responsibilety to keep a good, clean game state. IF one player makes a MAJOR game play error by thinking he/she had won a game when a KO didnt happen (forgot about resistence) and scoops their prizes.......GG, game loss (even in 10-, even though that is a very harsh penalty).

Q: How far did the player get with the prize cards?? Was he simply picking them up, already in hand or deck? Started to shuffle for game 3?? See the problem with rewinding only as the time goes slightly forward?

Keith

 

[meganium45]

The biggest slop of the event from myself...earned.

Let me just make it clear that I did not make the ruling.

I was approached, and was explained to what was going on....

I asked them to be consistant with what had been ruled throughout the remainder of the event. Yes I gave my opinion. I advocated for my kid.... I never entered the play area, or crossed the rope.

The original ruling at the table after the incident happened was a game loss.

Did I stomp around and act like a bit (OK, probably and understatement) of a /// parent that I would hate to be/// yes.

I should have done what I had done the ENTIRE day, and kept my back to the match and let it play out.

Andrew had it without the game loss being entered. Both Blasty were prized, he had 2 prizes left, the minimum penalty was a prize penalty, and his hand was loaded.

NOONE wanted the event to end this way.

I know I have lost a lot of credibility over this incident, and I am frankly embarassed by this. When I saw something going down, I should have walked away, left the hall, done whatever to get myself away, easy to say in retrospect.

For someone who writes articles and gives advice on how to act as a top level parent...I BLEW IT. I should have done what I have done in EVERY OTHER EVENT where Andrew is in the finals...and sat with the Richards family, from afar. I feel I have probably destroyed an excellent relationship I had with them...and it is my own fault.

Heck...I give a lot of credit to Dave S. who came up to me as I was talking, pulled me aside and said, in so many words...no more. We are making our ruling, it is our ruling, the judges and PUI are coming together, and you should STOP. That was the sobering up I needed. He stressed to me I was just a parent, and had no say, and it was their call to make. They realized the importance of the call, there were factors I had NO KNOWLEDGE of, and to step away and sit down. I did just that. Too bad, I had already made a spectacle of myself.

I give the credit to the Richards family, who did not have to be reminded not to be an idiot, and were their conistant, professional selves in the situation.

OK, have I eaten enough crow?

Talk to you soon.

Vince

 

[yoshi1001]

OK, have I eaten enough crow?

http://pokegym.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=1820&c=41

I know how you feel-it's hard for me going from being a judge to being an average joe these last months.

 

[meganium45]

OK, I am not looking for sympathy here. Let me make that CLEAR.

I was wrong....

I was wrong

I embarassed myself.

M45

 

[Lawman]

Vince: I wasn't at Nats and seeing that you have come on here with your "mea culpa" makes the game benefit more. The call was made by the right people, from where I sit, and that was POP/PUI/HJ. It is tough to be the "nervous parent". Another reason I volunteered to start judging so I wouldnt be staring at my son's matches!

You have eaten more crow than is probably necessary here Vince, but by coming on here and typing what you did should end any "controversy" over the ending of the match. Looking forward to seeing you and your family in California. Congrats to Andrew for his win (T4 3 straight Nats...right?) Also, as a criminal defense att'y.....you have the right to remain silent.....but glad you didn't so this "issue" has been addressed.

Keith

 

[Pablo]

That is quite hypocrite on Vinces part.

 

[psycodad]

Vince
Thanks
It would have been nice to see a 3rd game for the crown but really, no hard feelings here at all. I am thankful for the good times my family has going to events made possible by PTO's like yourself. We live in an imperfect world, stuff happens.
cya @ worlds

 

[Burninating_Torchic]

Vince, I appreciate seeing your side of the story. I think a lot of people misunderstood what happened, and I know that I did. I hope there's no hard feelings or anything, and I'll see you at worlds.

 

[ncpicachufan2000]

You did good BT! Sounds like you and the super TTar bunch had a ball! Did MaTT REALLY eat and energy??? wait till his mama finds out! LOL! Ready to do it again next month??? :clap:

 

[GrandmaJoner]

game loss for that....now i've heard everything. what a big joke.
Judges need to seriously rethink the way they assess penalties, and realize like in sports, if the referee is the focal point of a match it's not the way it's supposed to be.
Regardless if Meganium45 said this or not, it's the judges fault. Why should they even consider listening to him if he's not even judging?
Now, I've been subject to good judging and bad judging. An example of this was the WORLDS 2004 SEMIFINAL where my opponent took a prize when he didn't KO one of my Pokemon. The judges converged, showed me the prize and told him to put it back and that was the next one he would take. NO PENALTY OR GAME LOSS OR ANYTHING! WHY SHOULD THERE BE? THAT'S PERFECT! Seeing his lightning energy in his prizes didn't affect the match AT ALL. It was a GREAT EXAMPLE of judging, and if someone accidentally takes a prize and looks at it, I don't really understand what is a more significant offense than that other than cheating. There's no reason it warrants a game loss or even a penalty!! So if this doesn't then WHY SHOULD ANYTHING ELSE??
Judging should be more CONSISTENT rather than based on personal opinion. In my game, I remember once or twice I forgot to discard a supporter, but i did it at some point during my opponent's turn. What is wrong with that? Did it affect the game AT ALL? NO! Yet someone else gets a GAME LOSS for it? WHAT IS THAT? Is that necessary AT ALL? RIDICULOUS!
Judges need to stop "taking control" and letting their "authority" get to their head. They realize they have the power to make these decisions, and they totally abuse it. (not all, but some...many). I've heard of many instances that I just find as big jokes.
There should be no game losses for anything except CHEATING, or doing something on PURPOSE. If someone starts randomly looking through their deck or something like that on purpose, or if they like flip up their opponents prizes, things like this are obviously intentional and should be punished. But by ACCIDENTS that barely affect the game, give me a break! Even if the person was already going to lose anyways, giving them a game loss is STUPID.
JUDGES NEED TO THINK BEFORE THEY ACT, and realize, yes, they are in a position of "power," but don't let it get to your head!!! This is POKEMON TCG we're talking about not being the president of the USA. When people fly from all over and get ridiculous rulings to lose them games, for no real reason whatsoever, it's a real shame. And i mean that seriously.

Just look at this, two separate instances in two different WORLDS SEMIFINAL matches:
#1- Player incorrectly takes a prize card and puts it into their hand. Judges trust that he tells them the right prize card and shows it to his opponent, and puts it back in his prizes. He must take that one next.
#2- Player forgets to discard a supporter card at the end of their turn. Opponent's turn happens, they draw their card. "oops forgot to discard supporter last turn." Game loss is issued.

If I could swear on here right now I totally would because that doesnt make sense to me AT ALL. (my post will probably get deleted anyways because the adults who mod this section dont like to hear this kind of stuff). How is that consistent? Whether you win a match or not should not depend on WHICH JUDGE YOU GET!

This needs to be seriously looked at and CHANGED. NOW. Before some other garbage like this takes place.

 

[Lawman]

That is quite hypocrite on Vinces part.

Nice. :nonono: Coming from someone who got himself BANNED for trying to split travel money for throwing matches.

GJ: The expamples you provided occurred @ Worlds 2004, right? The supporter rule had just been enforced and POP/PUI decided after Worlds that the game loss was improper for that infraction. They admitted their mistake. The reason it got to a game loss situation is bc the player had racked up several warnings thruout the day about the same thing. The rules state that IF a player keeps making the same error over and over, especially in a premiere event, the penalties MUST escalate!

I think the rules are getting clearer for Judges to base their decisions upon. In the instance where a player simply takes "1 prize card" incorrectly versus taking ALL THEIR PRIZE CARDS are two completely different instances and should warrant DIFFERENT penalties. Let me ask you this question. If a player scoops all their prize cards into hand/deck (thinking they had won by benching the other player) and they are WRONG....How exactly do you rewind this???? Do you think your opponent will AGREE that you had XYZ in your hand....that ABCDEF was your prizes and just place them down again and go forward? NOPE, cannot happen. This is a MAJOR GAME PLAY ERROR in a premiere tourney and, even with this being the 1st time it happens to the player...it will result in game loss. NO MATTER WHO WAS WINNING OR LOSING THAT PARTICULAR GAME.

No one has answered this question. How far along had the player taken his prizes? All I hear here is "he had scooped his prizes" forgetting about resistence kicking in and saving the Latias for 1 turn.

GJ: There have been errors in rulings made by Judges, we are human. But, most of the time, we get it exactly right. Do we get many thanks for "doing our job correctly"??? Or do we simply get beaten down when a "perceived" error takes place. Again, based on the info we have so far....game loss was the appropriate penalty for that type of error and it is addressed in the Judges penalty guidelines. In fact, that exact issue was raised in the Professor forum recently. Go read it yourself GJ (since you are a Prof.). You will find a very interesting comment/opinion made by Mike L. there. Then you will see why I have stated what I have stated here.

Good day!

Keith
Keith

 

[ninetales1234]

Now, I've been subject to good judging and bad judging. An example of this was the WORLDS 2004 SEMIFINAL where my opponent took a prize when he didn't KO one of my Pokemon. The judges converged, showed me the prize and told him to put it back and that was the next one he would take. NO PENALTY OR GAME LOSS OR ANYTHING! WHY SHOULD THERE BE? THAT'S PERFECT! Seeing his lightning energy in his prizes didn't affect the match AT ALL. It was a GREAT EXAMPLE of judging,

sounds fair to me.

In my game, I remember once or twice I forgot to discard a supporter, but i did it at some point during my opponent's turn. What is wrong with that? Did it affect the game AT ALL? NO! Yet someone else gets a GAME LOSS for it? WHAT IS THAT? Is that necessary AT ALL? RIDICULOUS!

Definitely agree with you. People need to lighten up and not worry about the small stuff.

[There should be no game losses for anything except CHEATING, or doing something on PURPOSE.

Yes. Especially in single elimination, in which a game loss prevents a person from winning a tournament entirely. This is one reason not to have single elimination and just make the tournaments swiss. In sinle elim, losing against one player prevents you from winning the tournament entirely, which means that a loss penalty is the same as being disqualified (ie. kicked out of the entire tournament).

The things that deserve one loss and the things that deserve disqualification are different. But with single elimination, there is no distinction. In swiss (most of the time), one loss won't prevent you from winning the tournament.

If someone starts randomly looking through their deck or something like that on purpose, or if they like flip up their opponents prizes, things like this are obviously intentional and should be punished.

Right. Judges are punishing errors with penalities that are more suited to things that are intentional.

When people fly from all over and get ridiculous rulings to lose them games, for no real reason whatsoever, it's a real shame. And i mean that seriously.

Yes, Tara came all the way from Lusby, got 28th place and lost first round

Top 32 in Nats is played in one hour rounds, best 2 out of 3.

So - I played BLS and won the first game. He won the second. Third game I made a crucial mistake which cost me the game - literally - I had to take a game loss. Nick you are going to kill me.

There was only 2-3 minutes left in the hour. He played a Holon Mentor and discarded a Rocket Admin. I was looking at my hand when he threw the Mentor and I only saw the Admin hit the discard pile. So.....I shuffled my hand into my deck and played Rockets. Well....he discarded it...not played it. Shuffling your hand into your deck is an auto loss and there you have it.

He received a warning for not making the play clear but it is my fault - I should have noticed the cards on the field. He was a super nice guy though and PUI made the right call. I'm pretty sure he had me anyway.

I thought this was pretty sad, but Tara later told me that:

it was announced at the beginning of Nationals that if you shuffled your hand into your deck it would be a game loss. So, we all had fair warning. I didn't think I would ever do anything like that. Now I can see how easily it can happen. Especially at an event where you have been playing for 3 days straight without much sleep!

That makes it better, but still, I think it is too extreme.

my post will probably get deleted anyways because the adults who mod this section dont like to hear this kind of stuff

I'm sure as long as your post conforms to the rules of this forum, they'll leave you alone.

This needs to be seriously looked at and CHANGED. NOW. Before some other garbage like this takes place.

I think things are relatively good, as far as OP is concerned, and I don't think any of this will cause us to quit. The very loyal players at least. But what about the newer players?

How about some 7-year-old who goes to a State Championship and just got into his first tournament (and probably doesn't even know what "Modified" is, or what "TCG" means). What if he makes an error and a judge gives an extreme penalty similar to the ones mentioned above? How will that new player react? What will he think? People who are not as established in the game will be turned away by this kind of thing. Bad judging may be a little more tolerable for us loyal players, but some newer players will be discouraged by it. We don't want to turn them away from Pokemon:frown:

 

[Lawman]

Ninetales1234: How is Tara's game loss a "bad judging error" when it was announced at the start of the tourney what the penalty would be for that "major game play error"????? You are a professor...go to the prof. forums and read the thread on this topic. Because the judges had differing opinions on this issue, TO AVOID inconsistent rulings by judges, POP/PUI made a BLANKET RULE so that the issue is BLACK & WHITE! No gray areas! The gray areas are where most judging "errors" occur in!

Judges are not "punishing" players with penalties for their MAJOR GAME PLAY ERRORS. They are simply APPLYING the RULES POP/PUI have set down. If the HJ didnt follow that rule in the 10- finals match and in Tara's situation in T32......People would be crying...."But they didnt follow their own rules"!!! Sorry, but the Judges got it right IMHO.

Keith

 

[ninetales1234]

Ninetales1234: How is Tara's game loss a "bad judging error" when it was announced at the start of the tourney what the penalty would be for that "major game play error"?????

I think you need to read my post again because I never said that. Are your "Ctrl+f" buttons working?

For those of you who still believe that a loss is an appropriate penalty for errors, check out this post by M_Liesik.
http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=31265
Then read section 7.1.2 of the POP penalty guidelines. It doesn't say that game loss is appropriate for errors, even major ones.

7.1.2. Game-Play Error: Major
When game state has become irreversibly confused due to game-play
errors, it is appropriate for the judge to issue a higher-level penalty.

If you look at it in context, it's not saying to give out losses, it's simply saying that there are penalties which are greater than those given out for minor game errors (and then it proceeds to tell what they are).

People would be crying...."But they didnt follow their own rules"!!! Sorry, but the Judges got it right IMHO.

Well, of course. I agree with you, they should follow their own rules. But this "rule" shouldn't be a rule.

 

[Lawman]

No, Ninetales, "you" never said that, but you quoted GJ on the issue of "ridiculous" rulings that "lose them games" and then YOU stated...Tara came all the way from Lusby, got 28th, and lost first round...."implying" that she got a "ridiculous" ruling. Come on man...don't hide behind that excuse. Even Tara wouldnt go there, bc, according to your poat....she said EVERYONE was told BEFORE Nats started, what the penalty would be for that "error". So, whatever Mike L. posted in that thread seems to have been changed/corrected with the announcement at Nats! BTW Mike L. was @ Nats....look at all the pics.

Keith

Edit: Checking the post you reference by Mike L. involves a game play error-MINOR. Shuffling your hand into your deck when you shouldn't is a MAJOR game play error. Please go to the Professor forums (since we cannot use their quotes here w/o their permission) and read (or reread) the post made by Mike L. on this very subject!!!!)

 

[Pablo]

sigh Lawman, the fact that I said that doesnt take away from Vince being a hypocrite about the whole parent situation, and I got myself banned yes, but

a) at the time I honestly and frankly didnt think it fell under collusion cause I was offering for ME to lose, not trying to get the opponent to concede.
b) I was quite honestly trying to help my opponent, as I knew I had the greater odds of winning and thus didnt want those 300 to go to waste.
c) youre reply would have been MUCH different if I had not been the one to post it and thus your argument is NOT valid.

 

[ixidor89]

Ninetales1234: How is Tara's game loss a "bad judging error" when it was announced at the start of the tourney what the penalty would be for that "major game play error"????? You are a professor...go to the prof. forums and read the thread on this topic. Because the judges had differing opinions on this issue, TO AVOID inconsistent rulings by judges, POP/PUI made a BLANKET RULE so that the issue is BLACK & WHITE! No gray areas! The gray areas are where most judging "errors" occur in!

Judges are not "punishing" players with penalties for their MAJOR GAME PLAY ERRORS. They are simply APPLYING the RULES POP/PUI have set down. If the HJ didnt follow that rule in the 10- finals match and in Tara's situation in T32......People would be crying...."But they didnt follow their own rules"!!! Sorry, but the Judges got it right IMHO.

Keith

As a person who knows Tara personally, I completely agree with you. Don't get me wrong, Tara is a great person and all, but the mistake she made improperly changed the game state, which if I am correct, constitutes a game loss under POP procedures. It's a shame that such mistakes have been made (Often unintentionally), but the actions shouldn't be detrimental to the player following the rules. Sadly, this means that the only other option for resolving the problem is to issue a game loss.

 

[Lawman]

As a person who knows Tara personally, I completely agree with you. Don't get me wrong, Tara is a great person and all, but the mistake she made improperly changed the game state, which if I am correct, constitutes a game loss under POP procedures. It's a shame that such mistakes have been made (Often unintentionally), but the actions shouldn't be detrimental to the player following the rules. Sadly, this means that the only other option for resolving the problem is to issue a game loss.

I agree, it is sad to see someone's tourney end that way. But the rules need to be meted out to everyone the same way.

Pablo: Vince came on here and admitted his wrong doing (as did you). The difference (in my mind) is that Vince was arguing/complaining that a ruling was being made improperly and he simply wanted the rule(s) applied the same for all, whether it was FOR or AGST his kid. (In this case, it was for his kid....I know in the past, when he was HJ at a tourney, regionals 2005 I believe....a ruling issue came up, it was presented as Player A and Player B....issue discussed....he, as HJ, made the ruling. When applied to the game itself, the ruling went ag'st his kid and it cost him the invite (at the time) to Worlds 2005!) Vince went overboard, had to be reminded of that and then POP/PUI and the HJ made the PROPER ruling. Now, in your case (to rehash old news).....you told the player...I will concede to YOU and you give me half your travel money. How can anyone NOT think that is WRONG???!!???? I just dont get it. So, yes, I thought it was improper for you, Pablo, to criticrize Vince for his actions. Now, does that mean I think you are a bad person...HECK NO. I think you have many fine qualities and to boot....are a DARN GOOD Pokemon TCG player. I await the day when you ge reinstated and get to play a game you love!

Keith