call energy

[Papi/Manny]

You replace 4 energies in your deck with Call Energy, you no longer need a starter. Thats 4 cards you have extra for draw/search/w/e. Card Advantage.



... Because then you are stuck with a semi-obsolecent Pacharisu for the rest of the game if they don't knock it out. And what deck would rather run CC than set themselves up with Claydol? Empoleon is better off using It to set themselves up, and simply punish people for using their powers.



Bull. Draw is still put into almost every deck that can fit it in, and will be put into more now that GG isnt the insanely dominant monster it used to be. Draw is played in decks.



I'd sooner setup more Empoleon/Claydol/Aerodactyl/What Ever Techs on my bench than a useless 70hp basic, ty.



Possibly, in decks like that you simply do not use Call Energy. No one ever said it was going to be used in EVERY deck, but the consistancy boost at a very small price and next to no cost in space is more welcome than... a small electric rodent who can get get rid of tools.



Considering you are talking as if he said it goes in every deck, you are really one to talk about putting words in peoples mouths. An energy card that provides card advantage with no real built in restriction is amazing, one that grabs basics is just plain amazing, possibly even broken. How are you not seeing it?

1) And again, you need windstorm to cover crystal. 90% of the time its not card advantage.
2) Decks that are speed? Take advanage of your slower start without a lamb. Sacing a starter>sacing one of your main hitters.
3) Not really. At least most of the lists I've seen haven't played more then 4-5 draw.
4) I'd like to see that when your starter is one of those cards.
5) Okay, we agree here. Call isn't the play in every deck and niether is pachi.
6) No not at all. But if thats what you think then okay. And ending your turn is a pretty large price. Why is nobody playing swampert ex anymore? How am I not seeing what? I even said it was a good card. Its defaintely not broken though. But its very playable and will see play. But thats just obvious.

On another note, I noticed you skipped over my cyclone point. Any reason why or did I actually make a point?

 

[SPARTA]

1) And again, you need windstorm to cover crystal. 90% of the time its not card advantage.

Pacharisu doesnt cover your windstorm capabilities. I see Pacharisu, I play down two CC's. You send up Pachi, I kill it, and I still have a CC in play. And if you give me a free prize every single time I play CC, I'll drop them all day (unless I'm using Empoleon) and just take my prizes. Using Pachi and saying you will never have to worry about CC again is foolish hope, a good player can still wipe you out by playing smart.

2) Decks that are speed? Take advanage of your slower start without a lamb. Sacing a starter>sacing one of your main hitters.

Who said anything about a Main Hitter? Can drop a call on my active, Call for the 1 Phione in my deck and a Baltoy, and setup from there.

And while I am at it, let me correct one mistake I said earlier. You do not need a starter, but you should still run something to Call out and setup with (IE Phione).

3) Not really. At least most of the lists I've seen haven't played more then 4-5 draw.

4-5 Draw is draw. You said none. No real deck I see uses more than 4-5 draw either, but they still use draw incase they need it.

4) I'd like to see that when your starter is one of those cards.

Addressed by the point I said above. Sorry about me screwing up about that.

5) Okay, we agree here. Call isn't the play in every deck and niether is pachi.

No starter is for every deck, I am glad we agree on that.

6) No not at all. But if thats what you think then okay. And ending your turn is a pretty large price. Why is nobody playing swampert ex anymore? How am I not seeing what? I even said it was a good card. Its defaintely not broken though. But its very playable and will see play. But thats just obvious.

Right, because using CFF doesn't end your turn, because it isn't an attack, how did I make such an error.
It is broken, it is an energy that by itself gets card advantage. Name me one other energy that gave you card advantage with no real drawback. When you fail to, come back here. Your appology is accepted.

On another note, I noticed you skipped over my cyclone point. Any reason why or did I actually make a point?

Why bother reading the Cyclone point? I never play more than 1 Basic until my first turn anyway, and I was taught this by various members of Team R, so I tend to think of it as intellegent play. Cyclone does nothing to me if I have no bench, and my opponent running cyclone means they either have no Call Energy, or have a colorless heavy deck (EI Blissey). Either way, Cyclone T1=lol

 

[Papi/Manny]

Pacharisu doesnt cover your windstorm capabilities. I see Pacharisu, I play down two CC's. You send up Pachi, I kill it, and I still have a CC in play. And if you give me a free prize every single time I play CC, I'll drop them all day (unless I'm using Empoleon) and just take my prizes. Using Pachi and saying you will never have to worry about CC again is foolish hope, a good player can still wipe you out by playing smart.



Who said anything about a Main Hitter? Can drop a call on my active, Call for the 1 Phione in my deck and a Baltoy, and setup from there.

And while I am at it, let me correct one mistake I said earlier. You do not need a starter, but you should still run something to Call out and setup with (IE Phione).



4-5 Draw is draw. You said none. No real deck I see uses more than 4-5 draw either, but they still use draw incase they need it.



Addressed by the point I said above. Sorry about me screwing up about that.



No starter is for every deck, I am glad we agree on that.



Right, because using CFF doesn't end your turn, because it isn't an attack, how did I make such an error.
It is broken, it is an energy that by itself gets card advantage. Name me one other energy that gave you card advantage with no real drawback. When you fail to, come back here. Your appology is accepted.



Why bother reading the Cyclone point? I never play more than 1 Basic until my first turn anyway, and I was taught this by various members of Team R, so I tend to think of it as intellegent play. Cyclone does nothing to me if I have no bench, and my opponent running cyclone means they either have no Call Energy, or have a colorless heavy deck (EI Blissey). Either way, Cyclone T1=lol

1) I thought it was impossible to get that many cess out that fast? Its either one or the other. I love it when people contradict themselves. (btw I know you didn't say cess/wager wasn't t2 or whatever but still you both seem to agree on everything so I might as well bunch your opinions together). I know that pachi doesn't cover see. But cyclone does. And honestly, I don't think anyone is insane enough to drop 2 cess down, even with windstorm being as minamall as it is.
2) Yes you can. Which is a good point on why call is a good card in general. I'm not here saying its a bad card (like I said before its obviously not.). I'm here saying its not a pachi replacement for several decks.
3) Okay I assumed that people would understand what I ment by none. But I guess not. Yes, 4-5 draw is alot more then none, but I consider that to be none in my book (compared to past formats at least).
4) *skips this*
5) yay
6) I don't see why I'm appologing for anything. Card advantage? Holon's castaform. Of course thats not a legit starter in 95% of the decks today so we can dismiss it. But its there. Dre/Scramble give you a pesudo (sp?) card advantage in the sence that they provide 2+ energy so you get an instant advantage in droping them. -10 isn't a huge drawback.
7) I honestly don't care who taught you what. Its obviously a nice drop early game on people with benched pokemon but cyclone covers a various range of effects. Its an energy, anti-cess, can by a turn if the opponet is under-developed, and can easily get free prizes late game. And 95% of the time I'll take cyclone late game over call energy.

 

[FutureTrainer]

thanks for clearing that up for me, i realized that my number was too high but i had not gone back to recalculate. i have been out of math class way to long lol
btw did you calculate the prize odds on a 60 card model or a 53? it really should be based on 53 since you have 7 cards in your hand before putting out prizes.....

Actually I considered the enitre setup as a single event. So I used a 60 card case for setting up your hand and your prize cards. I chose this method because if you don't have a basic in your hand, then the setup 'fails' and you have to start again. If you have 1 or more basic in your had, that does not inherently change the probabilities of getting any given card in the next 6 you draw. That is, once I've shuffled my deck, the probability of getting card A in the first draw is the same as getting that card in the 6th, or 7th, or 25th, or 60th. This holds true until I shuffle the deck... sort of.

NoPoke is technically right, as you draw cards, the probabilitiy of the remaining cards changes. Although, the math is infinitely more complex than he suggests. I think this is a version of the "Let's Make a Deal" problem (Read about the Monty Hall problem on Wikipedia). Once you draw your 7 card hand, the remaining probabilities in the deck are different from the initial case. Initially you had an X/60 chance of getting any given card, where X is the # of copies of that card. However, in your had you have Y copies of that card. The new probability of getting that card in the next draw is now (X-Y)/60 where X is the number of copies of that card in your deck, and Y is the number of copies of that cards that you have drawn.

This is quite an interesting statistical problem. However, I'm not sure the subtleties really matter that much. After all, a given deck may run a few hundred times, and only a few dozen times during any given tournament. The statistics only really matter over thousands of games. And ONE bad shuffle can overcome even the best odds. Yes careful readers, all these statistics rely upon the concept that your deck is perfectly random. And we all know how well our decks are shuffled.

Good luck,
Jeff

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

Well, for the mathematicians here - what are the odds of having Call Energy AND a basic in your start hand? Assuming you run 8 basics, 4 of which are desirable.

OK, after that previous message, if you are still interested here are some thoughts.

1. Chance of getting at least one Call Energy in your hand, given you have 4 in your deck and it is perfectly shuffled, is 38.3%

2. Chance of getting at least one Basic Pokemon A in your hand, given you have 4 in your deck and it is perfectly shuffled, is 38.3%

3. Chance of getting at least one of Basic Pokemon A or Basic Pokemon B in your hand, given you have 4 of each in your deck and it is perfectly shuffled, is 63.3%


That is the easy part. Now the hard part. I'm not sure of the math on these tables since it is so late. But here it goes,

4. Chance of getting at least 1 Call Energy and 1 Basic Pokemon A in your hand is (38.3%*38.3%=) 14.7%. BUT this isn't the real answer. Because if Basic Pokemon A is the only basic in your deck, then you will get a Mulligan 61.7% of the time. What this means is that 61,7% of the time you will have to reshuffle, and your opponent will get another card, and you will ultimately have (14.7%/38.3%=) 38.3% chance of getting both cards you want after a reshuffle.

5. Chance of getting at least 1 Call Energy and 1 Basic Pokemon A or Basic Pokemon B in your hand is (38.3%*63.3%=) 24.2%. BUT just like the previous problem, this isn't the real answer. Because if Basic Pokemon A and Basic Pokemon B are the only basic in your deck, then you will get a Mulligan only 36.7% of the time. What this means is that 36.7% of the time you will have to reshuffle, and your opponent will get another card, and you will ultimately have (24.2%/63.3%=) 38.3% chance of getting both cards you want after a reshuffle.

Interesting, in both cases you have the same probabilty of tetting both cards in a hand. In case 4 you have a better probability of getting both cards becasuse of mulligans. In case 5 you have a better chance of getting the first draw, and lower chance of getting a Mulligan.

I hope this is useful,
Jeff

 

[NoPoke]

Sorry but the math is exactly what I suggest. What is more I am sure of my math on this.

The distribution is called Hypergeometric. In spreadsheets let HYPGEOMDIST() be your friend!

As far as opening hand is concerned whilst the number of times any deck mulligans is important, in order to start at least one of your 7 cards must be a basic. The probability of having an active basic face down when you start is precisely 1. That single basic is the only card you can be certain of.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

Call Energy is better than Pachirisu. I'm no great deck builder but if I can see the possibility then it must be better by quite some margin. The problem I have is figuring out what decks can best exploit the card without exposing the new cards' weaknesses. Will Call Energy be better than Pachirisu in every deck? Of course it won't, I don't think Scizor or SPARTA are claiming that it would be.

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

Why bother reading the Cyclone point? I never play more than 1 Basic until my first turn anyway, and I was taught this by various members of Team R, so I tend to think of it as intellegent play. Cyclone does nothing to me if I have no bench, and my opponent running cyclone means they either have no Call Energy, or have a colorless heavy deck (EI Blissey). Either way, Cyclone T1=lol

I have to say that I disagree with you here Sparta. Yes playing down 1 basic will protect you from Cyclone / Warp Point and whatnot ... but it can also LOOSE THE GAME for you. Skittles, Banette with Rare Candy, Absol + Special Darkness & Warp Point, etc. All those and more can T1 you if you have only 1 basic. Why take the risk of a Doink loss just to not be cycloned?

 

[NoPoke]

Vanderbilt, bannete can't T1 you. To play rare candy the banette has to go second, so you get to choose if you want to place a second basic prior to them using ghost head. Unless your single basic is at risk from the player going first knocking you out before you even draw (magikarp?, riolu donks) starting with a single basic is the right play.