Celebi-ex and Politoed

Discussion in 'Cards: Strategy and Rulings Discussion' started by AnJaFrIv, Aug 8, 2014.

  1. AnJaFrIv

    AnJaFrIv New Member

    I'm looking at the possibility of building an energy-less Politoed/Poliwrath deck with furious fists' release. To do this effectively I think access to Poliwhirl's second strike could be important, but how would Celebi-ex and Politoed work here? Would I be able to use second strike for free on a Poliwrath? If i had to go either way i'd say yes, but Celebi-ex's ability text doesn't return the concrete answer I was hoping for.
    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. tutti

    tutti New Member

    Interesting question. I'm not completely sure myself, but if I had to make a ruling now I'd go with no. Celebi lets Poliwrath use Poliwhirl's attacks, but it doesn't make those attacks Poliwrath's attacks. I've got a slight doubt in the fact that the attack could be said to be Poliwhirl's attack, which would also make it benefit from King's Song, but given how Evolution works (when a pokémon evolves it's not the same pokémon anymore), I don't think that card counts as "your Poliwhirl" when there's a Poliwrath on top of it.
     
  3. AnJaFrIv

    AnJaFrIv New Member

    Yeah, lets you use is the bit that threw me. I'm hoping that may be interpreted differently above all else, like the malamar victini ruling. It's probably best for me to wait til the release anyway as that's when official rulings are released i believe? Thank you though.
     
  4. inmanjm

    inmanjm New Member

    Best bet would be to ask this in the 'Ask the Rules Team' forum.

    Based on how a similar question with Mew-EX was answered, I think tutti is on track that it Celebi-EX let's Poliwrath use the attacks printed on the stages below, but they count as Poliwrath's attack, which isn't inlcuded in the ability description, so he'd still have to pay full price.
     
  5. AnJaFrIv

    AnJaFrIv New Member

    Thank you, I'll be sure ask there too. BTW Poliwrath is in Politoeds ability description, unless i'm misunderstanding you.
    Thanks again.
     
  6. tomoyosfan1

    tomoyosfan1 Member

    I would think that Poliwrath could use Poliwhirl's attacks for free because he is included in the Ability. Note that a Politoed would NOT be able to make any attacks for free with Celebi down (since they're Politoed's attacks now, not Poliwhirl's).
     
  7. inmanjm

    inmanjm New Member

    Doh, that's what I get for not reading carefully. Yeah, PoliWRATH could use the PoliWHIRL/PoliWAG attacks, as long as those cards are under him. I thought the question was referring to PoliTOED using PoliWHIRL's attacks, which wouldn't be ok.
    Sorry for the confusion.
     
  8. AnJaFrIv

    AnJaFrIv New Member

    It's quite alright C:

    This all comes down to whether it's determined Poliwrath is using the attack or has the attack, I'm beginning to agree with the original replies saying it's not okay, but only time and the rulings team will tell. I'll be sure to update this thread with the answer i get on the ask the rule teams forum.
     
  9. tutti

    tutti New Member

    I'm even more torn now. I decided to look to the Compendium for some examples to quote, and found two (seemingly) conflicting rulings:

    Apparently, Amnesia's wording of "the Defending Pokémon's attacks" can't reach attacks on previous evolutions, but Drifting Balloon's wording of "This Pokémon's attacks" can. I'd still go with the former if I had to choose, since I seem to recall that being how Time Recall usually works when combined with effects on a pokémon's attacks, but the latter has some merit as well being more recent.
     
  10. inmanjm

    inmanjm New Member

    The Amnesia ruling is because it's your Amnesia and your opponent's Celebi-EX.
    The Drifting Balloon is because it's your Celebi-EX and your Driflblim/Drifloon.
    In this case, the Drifting Balloon ruling is more similar, so I'm willing to bet the answer comes back "Poliwrath may use Poliwhirl/Poliwag's attacks and ignore all (C) in the costs of the attacks when Celebi-EX and Politoed are both in play."
     
  11. tutti

    tutti New Member

    I'm not convinced; Time Recall doesn't have anything to indicate it's only active during your own turn, or that only your own effects can affect attacks that are made available like this.
     
  12. AnJaFrIv

    AnJaFrIv New Member

    Right, that is very confusing. I agree that Time Recall doesn't specify it's only active during your own turn, much like Garbotoxin and that only works because it's not your turn, but I'm probably going to side with the more similar and more recent ruling from the Drifblim quote. Thank you for your help everyone, and especially for searching those past rulings, it seems i got a few people scratching their heads on this :')
     
  13. King Piplup

    King Piplup New Member

    My feeling is that "the game" is looking for attacks printed on your opponent's active in the Amnesia example. It lacks the "depth perception" to see that the defending Pokemon can also use previous attacks. It's just looking at the Defending's card.

    The Drifblim example is basically the same thing as Poli____, so it seems Celebi will allow their use.
     
  14. tutti

    tutti New Member

    Well, since you posted this question in Ask the Rules Team, you don't have to side with either, as you'll probably get a ruling fairly soon :)
     
  15. AnJaFrIv

    AnJaFrIv New Member

    True, but this discussion and that ruling will still suit me for casual play with friends :)
     
  16. inmanjm

    inmanjm New Member

    I think the important piece of the puzzle in the original question is how it's worded on Politoed and Celebi-EX:

    Time Recall: Each of your evolved Pokémon can use any attack from its previous Evolutions.
    King's Song: Ignore all Colorless Energy in the attack cost of each of your Poliwag, Poliwhirl, and Poliwrath's attacks.

    Celebi-EX lets your Poliwrath use Poliwhirl's attacks, but you have to pay the required cost.
    However, Politoed says to ignore all Colorless Energy in the attack cost of your Poliwhirl's attack.
    So put it all together and you get Poliwrath using Poliwhirl's attacks, which have no Colorless Energy cost.

    Also:

    Hehe, Time Recall is active during your opponent's turn, but how is your pokemon going to use any attack during your opponent's turn?

    I believe this is why the Amnesia ruling states:
    "...you can only use Amnesia on the attacks that are present on the opponent's card at the time of your attack."
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
  17. tutti

    tutti New Member

    I disagree with this explanation, but it does have merits. At this point I have nothing more to add until we get the official ruling :)
     
  18. AnJaFrIv

    AnJaFrIv New Member

    The top cut's pooka mentioned this in a set review, i'm expecting traffic and answers XD
     
  19. vaporeon

    vaporeon Moderator

    Celebi EX does not have any odd interaction with Politoad it seems.

    Celebi EX reads "Each of your Evolved Pokemon can use any attack from its Previous Evolutions. (You still need the Necessary Energy to use each attack.)

    Politoad reads "Ignore all [C] Energy in the attack cost of each of your Poliwag, Poliwhirl and Poliwrath's attack.

    Celebi lets you use the attacks of Poliwraths pre forms IF the requirement is met of having the correct energy. Since Politoad lets you use these attacks for free, you just use them. There can be translation issues but I think this is pretty much straight forward.
     
  20. AnJaFrIv

    AnJaFrIv New Member

    Awesome, thank you. So for future reference is it because the pre-evolutions are still present or because Celebi-EX counts those as poliwraths attacks?
     

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