1. Tempo Stratoblaster

    Tempo Stratoblaster New Member

    Question on how copycat should be played. Nothing on compendium about it.

    I have a professor friend who says it should be played as:
    Play Copycat. Shuffle your hand into your deck. THEN, count the number of cards in your opponents hand.

    vs

    Ask/count the number of cards in your opponents hand. then decide if you want to play copycat.

    My opinion/ruling:
    I use the latter (second) one since the # of cards in hand, # of cards in deck, and # of cards in discard are all public information and observable during gameplay.

    Am I incorrect?


     
  2. dkates

    dkates New Member

    You are correct. It is completely acceptable to ask your opponent how many cards he has in his hand, even if you don't have any particular reason to know. Just don't be obnoxious about it.
     
  3. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    Yes, ask how many cards in hand before playing Copycat.
    HOWEVER! Once you say you are playing Copycat, you don't get to change your mind because you don't like how many cards they have. Check that out BEFORE declaring that you are playing Copycat.
     
  4. dkates

    dkates New Member

    Correct me if this list is wrong or incomplete, but as I understand it, the following information is available at all times to all players: How many cards are in each player's hand, what Pokemon they have in play (barring LSSP) and what's attached to them, the remaining HP of all Pokemon and any conditions (Special Conditions, special counters, etc.) affecting them, how many prizes each player has left, and the contents of all discard piles.
     
  5. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    Any player is also allowed to read the text of any card in Play.
     
  6. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    Actually, both you and your professor are right. The card reads like your professor said. However, since hand-size is public information, it's proper to ask your opponent to reveal that info before playing CopyCat.

    PokePop, are you saying that after you "announce" a play, even if you haven't taken your hand off the played card, you CAN'T take it back? The definition of a played card/action has never really been explicitly defined. Except for attacks, merely "announcing" a play is NOT binding in my book. JMO.
     
  7. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    Depends on the REL, I guess. I've always played REL 0.5 or REL 1 at the most, so I've allowed takebacks as you describe. It depends on how far things have gone, really.
     
  8. dkates

    dkates New Member

    I mostly play casual, and I usually allow a takeback until either the action is no longer reversible or until another action has been initiated, whichever comes first.
    So when is an action no longer reversible? Ah, there's the crux. As soon as at least one of the following conditions has been met, I consider the action no longer reversible. For an attack, as soon as it's announced, unless it is announced and cannot be paid for. For anything involving coin flips, as soon as the first coin is flipped. For anything involving one or more cards being discarded, as soon as the discard occurs. For anything involving shuffling the deck, as soon as the deck is shuffled. For anything that involves drawing cards, as soon as at least one card has been drawn.
     
  9. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    IMO, takebacks only apply to competed actions. My point is that, generally speaking, an "announced" action (other than attacks) don't complete the action; therefore, takebacks don't apply.

    In my second TCG-of-choice, Lord of the Rings, takebacks are explicitly described as "not allowed" unless your opponent is "nice" and allows it. But, if asked to rule, a judge "must" disallow a takeback of a "completed action."

    Anyway, even at higher RELs, I can't image that mere announcements are binding (except for attacks).

    That's all from me on this side issue. Sorry about the topic deviation Tempo S.
     
  10. beatlerat

    beatlerat New Member

    So,
    It is now my understanding that this card is NOT to be played as written?
    What if the trainer doesn't want to tell the other trainer how many cards are in his/her hand. Is there a ruling on that? Seems as though this card should be played like a coin flip. You take a chance on the number of cards in his/her hand. That is how the card is written.
    Sorry, I don't agree.
     
  11. yoshi1001

    yoshi1001 New Member

    The number of cards in a player's hand is public information. For example, a judge could ask to make sure the hand is the proper size.
     
  12. beatlerat

    beatlerat New Member

    OK,
    Then let me ask this. Why not make it easier for us to make rulings in tournaments and play the cards as written instead of having to deal with trainers playing cards any way they want, regardless of what is written on the card? Somewhere you have to draw the line. I hate carrying notebooks of rules around just because the ruling is not as the card was intended, or someone ruled that the card CAN be played this way or that. All I am asking for is to make it easier for the judges to make a ruling, and the simplest way is for the card to be played as written. From a player's standpoint, that is how you could hope the card is played, but from a judges standpoint, you are making it a nightmare and a mockery of the wording.
     
  13. Tempo Stratoblaster

    Tempo Stratoblaster New Member

    Hiya Beatlerat ;)

    If hand size isn't public information, how will you be able to tell if your opponent draws more than 1 card during their draw phase?? A crafty opponent could easily pull 2 cards... or they could deal themselves 8 cards on the start...

    How about Gardevior EX? His 1st attack does 10 * number of cards in your opponents hand damage to the defending pokemon. Do you just pray that your opponent has enough cards in hand to do some danage before you attack or do you check first???
     
  14. dkates

    dkates New Member

    Well, first, some cards literally can't be played as written, and they've been errata'd (such as Fisherman). Some can be played as written, but have an errata because the printed wording was not the intended version (like Volbeat and Illumise). Some have different versions, so you have to play by the right version, or it's unfair (like Pokemon Reversal -- no comments, please). Some, you can't just play as written because it's two cards going together, and the wordings don't really completely account for how they go together. In this case, Copycat is still played as written. The question asked was, outside of the playing of the card, can you ask for certain information that the card references, namely the number of cards in your opponent's hand? The answer was, yes, you can. If you haven't obtained the information before that, the card's text gets it for you, but you can get it without the card. Does that help?
     
  15. beatlerat

    beatlerat New Member

    Although I agree that some cards must have rulings and errata, and though you cannot always agree with those rulings, this card COULD be played as written.
    But, there is no sense arguing this now. I will take my pill and swallow it.
    Not to change the subject, but I can't find an errata for Fisherman. Please indulge me.
     
  16. dkates

    dkates New Member

    Not sure there is one, but there's a wording mistake. In parentheses, the word "choose" is there where the number 4 should have been. It's played as if it were a 4.
     
  17. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    Asking a player to tell you how many cards they have in their hand has nothing to do with Copycat.

    It is public information. I can ask for it at any time.

    Now, the card says to shuffle you hand in and then count the cards.
    No one is saying not to do that. If someone didn't think to ask how many cards were there before they shuffled their cards into their deck, well, they're stuck then. They have to complete the play since it is now irreversible.

    What we are saying is that any player is within their rights to ask at any moment how many cards their opponent has in their hands. If the opponent refuses, they are breaking the rules by withholding public info.
     

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