Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Creating a ban/restriction list for a more fun and strategic Pokemon TCG

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I'm saying I don't think you have any real qualifications to talk about the competitive pokemon format.

And you do? Just because you think I'm not a skilled player does not mean much to this argument. Also, what "qualifications" are needed so I can apply for them.
 
And you do? Just because you think I'm not a skilled player does not mean much to this argument. Also, what "qualifications" are needed so I can apply for them.

You said yourself your "high level of play" experience is with another CCG and not this one.

edit: and as far as qualifications you could try actually being involved in the top tables at a big event some time.
 
You said yourself your "high level of play" experience is with another CCG and not this one.

edit: and as far as qualifications you could try actually being involved in the top tables at a big event some time.

I've done that before in Pokemon and more competitive games, so what else do I need?
 
Honestly, without reading through all the ranting and moaning. If I did have a ban list, it would be a brand new one every format, and rotate with the sets. I would not limit anything, if the card is REALLY a problem, it will be banned.
As far is this format goes, the list would look like this.

Banned:
Hypnotoxic Laser
Mewtwo Ex
Tropical Beach

Those are really the only three "problem" cards in the format, and that is just a sign of how good of a game/meta it is right now.
 
Mewtwo isn't even that great of a card in this format. Even though there was at least one copy of it in the Top2 decks at Nationals, it is hardly the featured attacker of the deck and most decks nowadays don't have trouble with it. I'm amazed you would list Mewtwo and not Yveltal.

I've done that before in Pokemon and more competitive games, so what else do I need? ]

I asked for your States, Regionals, Nationals and Worlds finishes before but you didn't answer...
 
I think if Pokemon had a banlist, then we should just outright stop rotation, and play Unlimited with the banlist. I would type one up, but it would take a while, and most attempts at making an alternate format don't work out. (Mainly because the current format is actually really good, all things considered.)

Banned:
Hypnotoxic Laser
Mewtwo Ex
Tropical Beach

Did you only list Beach because of its price? If so, then I understand, but Tropical Beach itself is the best card they've made in a long time.
 
I asked for your States, Regionals, Nationals and Worlds finishes before but you didn't answer...

The last tournament I played in was States. Left was a positive record. Dont remember what it was. Haven't played in tournament since due to school and making a moving, eating a lot of my time.

http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?174881-Vaporeon-s-State-Championship-Report-5-3-Record

Anyway, there's the tournament report I wrote for it if you want to read it.

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I think if Pokemon had a banlist, then we should just outright stop rotation, and play Unlimited with the banlist. I would type one up, but it would take a while, and most attempts at making an alternate format don't work out. (Mainly because the current format is actually really good, all things considered.)



Did you only list Beach because of its price? If so, then I understand, but Tropical Beach itself is the best card they've made in a long time.

The idea is to make cards you wont ban to begin with. Rotation is needed for Pokemon since they current team lacks the ability to have good rule sets with its card design but the list would help make or keep the format healthy. They can exist side by side and should only be use if problem cards show up.
 
I think if Pokemon had a banlist, then we should just outright stop rotation, and play Unlimited with the banlist. I would type one up, but it would take a while, and most attempts at making an alternate format don't work out. (Mainly because the current format is actually really good, all things considered.)



Did you only list Beach because of its price? If so, then I understand, but Tropical Beach itself is the best card they've made in a long time.

Mostly price, the main thing about pokemon is generally speaking, everyone can afford a competetive cards.
 
Honestly, why isn't this thread locked yet?
There's hardly any discussion on topic. It's all passive aggressive flaming or just outright flaming.
The TC is a mod, and should just lock this regardless if they want a healthy conversation about the subject, since obviously 90% of the posts in here are bashing the topic creator's lists or credentials. It's just not gonna happen.
 
while yugioh has a banlist (because they have to without a rotating format), MTG's standard format doesn't even have a single card that is banned. If a card is broken, it is expected to be gone after rotation. WOTC only bans cards if it is super broken, so with a rotating format in Pokemon, I don't expect there to be a banlist, and even if there were broken cards, they wouldn't have been reprinted to be usable after rotation.

I've seen something in the MTG forums where some guy or group of guys is like ban this, ban that, and WOTC didn't do anything about it, and the format wasn't warped. What WOTC did do is not reprint the card in a future set. The problem with Pokemon TCG is that TPCi has absolutely no control over what cards are printed. Thats the weakness of importing cards rather that designing and developing your own.

I pretty much see the same kind of thread when someone suggests that Yugioh should have a rotating format haha. The reason for this is that new sets have cards that support a decade old archetype haha. They also don't have to make reprint sets.

For rotating formats, banlists are usually a few cards, not a whole bunch. If something gets banned, there is always going to be some other card to takes its place. That's what people in the MTG forums say. Ban all the powerful cards, and the best weaker card will be the next powerful card. At least that is how it is for MTG.

You know what I notice about Pokemon TCG? Power Creep. That is what we should be talking about.

This is my opinion only, but there is so much power creep that Potion has to heal 30 as opposed to 20 to make it fair, not to mention that theme decks now come with a 100 damage counter, as opposed to only 10 and 50, and before that just 10.

Also, need I mention the big basic EX that should have been stage 2 Pokemon? Compare Blastoise ex to Blastoise EX.

Power creep dosen't really matter to them. Unlimited format is pretty much undersupported.
 
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^ This is a really good post signofzeta. While I expect some degree of power creep in games, I expect it to be balanced somewhat, to where things can still contend. Pretty much the issue is no real communication between TPC and TPCi as what japan wants, the rest of the world does, rather than talking to all branches equally and deciding whats best for the game. I could not be part of a company where my voice is not heard.

The problem is all the big hitters and OHKOs going around, making most decks unplayable thats not huge basics. Also like I said on the first post, Yveltal EX can KO a 170 HP EX with 2 energy quite easily. Things like Mewtwo and Yveltal make evolving basics worthless once they get X Balled or Evil Balled. Virbank laser does the same. Evolution decks want to go first so they can evolve quickly against big basics but big basics going second means you can lose 2 or 3 evolving basics trying to get the one. This is not including getting bad junipers where you discard 2 or 3 rare candy or even your super rods.

This is even a problem if you're using big basics. If TPC dont want the list, this can at least work as a alternate format where things like this dont exist. What options do you have about being X Baled or Evil balled out of a game? What options do you have taking 200 and 300 damage attacks each turn? You have none so this is why I feel something should be done.

I know Magic does not ban cards but they dont design broken cards. If something works they way it was not intended, they do something about it. Magic is a game for the players and Pokemon does not get this.

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Honestly, why isn't this thread locked yet?
There's hardly any discussion on topic. It's all passive aggressive flaming or just outright flaming.
The TC is a mod, and should just lock this regardless if they want a healthy conversation about the subject, since obviously 90% of the posts in here are bashing the topic creator's lists or credentials. It's just not gonna happen.

While most post have been nonconstructive, this thread exist for the community in the hopes that I could open a few minds. I knew what I was getting myself into when I posted this but I feel its worth it to discuss the issues of the format and how to fix it.
 
The idea is to make cards you wont ban to begin with. Rotation is needed for Pokemon since they current team lacks the ability to have good rule sets with its card design but the list would help make or keep the format healthy. They can exist side by side and should only be use if problem cards show up.

This is a trash argument. With this statement you're literally saying every CCG with rotation "lacks the ability".

signofzeta said:
This is my opinion only, but there is so much power creep that Potion has to heal 30 as opposed to 20 to make it fair, not to mention that theme decks now come with a 100 damage counter, as opposed to only 10 and 50, and before that just 10.

Heal 20 Potion was pretty much junk in base set too with only extremely fringe uses even in casual decks... and 50-damage counters were added while the maximum HP of pokemon was still 120, which at the time was unchanged from base set. So that's also a bad example of perceived power creep.

vaporeon said:
The problem is all the big hitters and OHKOs going around, making most decks unplayable thats not huge basics.

ALMOST EVERY FORMAT has been dominated by an OHKOing deck. This is not new in any way shape or form. Most of the time the OHKOs have required more complex setups, sure, but even now... like... yeah there are pokemon that Mewtwo and Yveltal mostly invalidate but you know what? They were designed that way! It's not like PCL designed a bunch of cards and then 6 months later slapped themselves on the forehead and went "OH crap, that's right, Mewtwo kills that! Drat!" and then did so again two years later when they designed Yveltal... "Oops! Drat! We done goofed again!"

But yeah I remember when I first started playing pokemon competitively I bounced a bunch of ideas around with my friends and had to be reminded repeatedly that "it's cool but BAR will just OHKO it..."


edit: Just a sidenote, I mentioned Gallade previously as a concrete example of why Nintendo won't ban anything unless it's truly gamebreaking, but I can extend that example in the other direction too - you want a format where the best deck can't be OHKO'd? Who remembers the MT Blissey format? The one where you played Blissey or lost to it? Yeah...
 
Also like I said on the first post, Yveltal EX can KO a 170 HP EX with 2 energy quite easily. Things like Mewtwo and Yveltal make evolving basics worthless once they get X Balled or Evil Balled. Virbank laser does the same.

To put this point more clearly, the issue isn't the big numbers; its the percentages. A "big" basic from Base Set, Hitmonchan, for 1 turn of Energy attachments, does 20 damage, which would K.O. the opponent's "big" basics (most had 70 HP) in 4 turns, or 3 with PlusPower. Compare this to Yveltal EX, which for 1 turn of Energy attachments (basic Dark + Dark Patch), is often a 1-hit-K.O., and is always a 2-hit-K.O.

So 70 HP back in Base Set, withstood more than 170 HP today.

edit: Just a sidenote, I mentioned Gallade previously as a concrete example of why Nintendo won't ban anything unless it's truly gamebreaking, but I can extend that example in the other direction too - you want a format where the best deck can't be OHKO'd? Who remembers the MT Blissey format? The one where you played Blissey or lost to it? Yeah...

We're not talking about what Nintendo would do, we're talking about an unofficial, fan-supported, alternate format.
 
Okay, if I had to make a banlist to try and make modified healthier, I would probably start with a lot less bans and see where it goes. I can see weeding out OHKOs, at least "easy ones", as a good starting point. So I would start by banning just these:

G Booster
Yveltal EX
Black Kyurem EX (Black Ballista)
Rayquaza EX

These are the only good cards in the current format that actually just OHKO everything, even Megas at times. Yveltal *might* not be as ridiculous without its extra 30 damage from Laser (see below), but I think either Dark Patch or Yveltal needs to be banned/restricted somehow. I purposely left Keldeo EX and Mewtwo EX on the list, because they require a rather absurd amount of Energy to function, which makes them easy to KO on a counter with another Mewtwo EX, Leafeon or Deoxys EX. Loading them with Energy just for an OHKO on an EX will always be a risky play and I believe better players would prefer to make more conservative plays.

I also think either Hypnotoxic Laser or Virbank City Gym could do with a ban, probably Hypnotoxic Laser. The reason I don't think you have to ban both is because keeping Laser allows you to play cards like Ninetales or Raticate should you want to and still get a good use out of them, while keeping Virbank lets you get milage out of a card like Amoonguss. Alternatively you could ban decks that play one from also playing the other, a la Sycamore/Juniper. I think the 25% chance of an extra free turn on its own is kind of powerful, but not worth playing without also getting an extra 60 free damage out of it (three times 20 extra between turns) unless Virbank is really popular.

I think other flippy, extremely powerful cards like Crushing Hammer and Catcher are stupid, but I'd prolly not ban them right off the bat. *Maybe* Sableye + Hammer is worth restricting, but once again that's a maybe.

I would ban Tropical Beach for price reasons in a heartbeat, but I would like to keep it around for balance reasons. Honestly, since this is nothing but an unofficial metagame, there is no reason not to allow Beach, since that'd be mostly played in casual settings (proxy becomes an option) or online.

One card that is really hurting potential nowadays is Garbodor. While aggressive decks with active abilities (such as Genesect's Red Signal, Exeggcute's Propagation, the Rain Dance abilities, etc) can sometimes get by with Tool Scrappers, any deck that needs their abilities over the course of the game simply cannot run enough Scrappers/Megaphones and remain consistent. I'm talking about cards like Mr. Mime and Klinklang PLF.

I'm aware that this banlist leaves a lot of powerful cards still in the format. I don't think the current draw supporters need to be touched, because we have no better consistency engines. If you really want to slow the game down significantly, you would have to ban basically the entire format, not just parts of it. All I've done is try to eliminate the easiest OHKOs as well as the most poisonous cards (Garbodor and Laser).

Plasma is virtually untouched aside from losing the Laser option, but I'm not too bothered with it because there's a lot of cards in the format that aim to counter it: Silver Mirror, Enhanced Hammer, Sawk, Drifblims, etc.

Virizion/Genesect lost nothing but G Booster, just like in vaporeon's OP, but since I left Superior Energy Retrieval and Professor Juniper alone, cards like Emboar and Flareon have an easier time beating it - although Emboar lost Rayquaza EX. Pyroar also still exists.

The Yveltal variants are gone, and Dark Patch decks would have to go back to Darkrai, Sableye, regular Yveltal and Absol. I think this is a manageable but still potent deck. The last time we saw straight Darkrai do well was a long, long time ago, but a lot of its problem opponents (OHKO cards) are gone. On the flipside, Laser is gone.

One interesting deck that can still OHKO everything is Weavile, which finds itself no longer restricted by Garbodor.

That's how I'd go about it if I made this kind of a format.
 
We're not talking about what Nintendo would do, we're talking about an unofficial, fan-supported, alternate format.

I don't get that out of the OP at all. There's nothing in the OP that sounds like this.

On the other hand, the OP has such gems as "In a game with 4-ofs a side deck is almost worthless" which is just more proof that vaporeon's perception filter only looks at things from a Yu-Gi-Oh! point of view.
 
I don't get that out of the OP at all. There's nothing in the OP that sounds like this.

On the other hand, the OP has such gems as "In a game with 4-ofs a side deck is almost worthless" which is just more proof that vaporeon's perception filter only looks at things from a Yu-Gi-Oh! point of view.

I look at it from a Yu-Gi-Oh point of view because its the closes game in relation to how powerful cards are. Modified feels like Yu-Gi-Oh's traditional format where at least 1 of everything is allowed. If in Yu-Gi-Oh they allowed 3 Pot of Greed, 3 Graceful Charity, and 3 pieces of each Exodia card, thats already 21 cards going to your instant win, which would auto win you the game in your opening have at least 30 percent of the time and almost always if you go first, since you could draw into them. Keep in mind there is also other draw cards. Now imagine you could play 3 of EVERYTHING in Yu-Gi-Oh. Why would you not play Auto win Exodia or Chaos Dragon Lock? Imagine you play the game and those were the only good decks. Sure you can play that odd deck that could win but why would you risk not playing the auto wins?

This is what Pokemon feels like to me. Auto 4 of everything was never a good idea because of power creep. Some of the good cards should be restricted or banned if they pose too much a problem for the format, rotation or not.
 
ALMOST EVERY FORMAT has been dominated by an OHKOing deck. This is not new in any way shape or form. Most of the time the OHKOs have required more complex setups, sure, but even now... like... yeah there are pokemon that Mewtwo and Yveltal mostly invalidate but you know what? They were designed that way! It's not like PCL designed a bunch of cards and then 6 months later slapped themselves on the forehead and went "OH crap, that's right, Mewtwo kills that! Drat!" and then did so again two years later when they designed Yveltal... "Oops! Drat! We done goofed again!"

Thats the thing between Magic and Pokemon. The dev team knows to not make cards they once banned because they know the results will end up the same. They may revisit a banned card and make it less powerful and test to see if it works, since the dev team plays their game, Pokemon on the other hand will make Mewtwo, not see the issue it will cause for the format, reprint it to keep it around longer, then make a card better than it. Yveltal EX is literally a better Mewtwo EX, with support from dark decks that forces people to dedicate 4 to 8 deck spots to deal with, NOT counter since it has non it wont KO in return. If I were on there dev team, Yveltal would not havae made it through the door with Evil Ball.

But yeah I remember when I first started playing pokemon competitively I bounced a bunch of ideas around with my friends and had to be reminded repeatedly that "it's cool but BAR will just OHKO it..."

I could care less what the format had in it. That would never stop me from playing decks with Pokemon I enjoyed. I would keep those things in mind but it would never stop me, as I would look for things to improve my matchup against them.

edit: Just a sidenote, I mentioned Gallade previously as a concrete example of why Nintendo won't ban anything unless it's truly gamebreaking, but I can extend that example in the other direction too - you want a format where the best deck can't be OHKO'd? Who remembers the MT Blissey format? The one where you played Blissey or lost to it? Yeah...

You seem to talk about GG ALOT. Why did it hurt you so much? I NEVER had problems with that deck. The Pidgeot I use would FORCE Gallade to flip over 4 prize cards to get the KO. In most cases, my opponent would misplay not seeing the -20 resistance to fighting leaving me with 20 health left. I would then Mirror Move to do the 100 damage right back. Once I had all the prizes flipped, it was a easy game for me. I also used healing cards to help keep Pokemon in play. GG was a easy game for my Pidgeot deck. There WERE other options to deal with the deck and I used 1 of them. Blissey was a problem, not going to disagree there but I could deal with it.
 
I don't like the idea of banning cards in Pokemon because they are used a lot. Right now we have a lot of really powerful cards, but they aren't broken. I can't name a lot of cards that are overpowered in the history of pokemon.

Cards that should have been banned.
Sableye(Stormfront)
 
Thats the thing between Magic and Pokemon. The dev team knows to not make cards they once banned because they know the results will end up the same. They may revisit a banned card and make it less powerful and test to see if it works, since the dev team plays their game, Pokemon on the other hand will make Mewtwo, not see the issue it will cause for the format, reprint it to keep it around longer, then make a card better than it. Yveltal EX is literally a better Mewtwo EX, with support from dark decks that forces people to dedicate 4 to 8 deck spots to deal with, NOT counter since it has non it wont KO in return. If I were on there dev team, Yveltal would not havae made it through the door with Evil Ball.

Yveltal is not a better Mewtwo. You have no idea what you're talking about.

I could care less what the format had in it. That would never stop me from playing decks with Pokemon I enjoyed. I would keep those things in mind but it would never stop me, as I would look for things to improve my matchup against them.

Ok? You quoted two of my points about OHKO decks being the norm in Modified since ages ago but didn't actually address the point at all.

You seem to talk about GG ALOT. Why did it hurt you so much? I NEVER had problems with that deck. The Pidgeot I use would FORCE Gallade to flip over 4 prize cards to get the KO. In most cases, my opponent would misplay not seeing the -20 resistance to fighting leaving me with 20 health left. I would then Mirror Move to do the 100 damage right back. Once I had all the prizes flipped, it was a easy game for me. I also used healing cards to help keep Pokemon in play. GG was a easy game for my Pidgeot deck. There WERE other options to deal with the deck and I used 1 of them. Blissey was a problem, not going to disagree there but I could deal with it.

Whoosh.

You're literally saying that you primarily beat GG if they misplayed (forgetting to verify fighting resistance).

I bring GG up because it's the sole example of a pokemon deck that was literally dominant for an entire season, being the #1 deck to play for Cities, States, Regionals, Nationals, AND Worlds in the same season. No other deck that I'm aware of has ever been that much of a force. We've had other decks that were strong for a good chunk of a season but never ALL of it (also IIRC GG is the only deck to win both Nationals and Worlds in the same season?)

The deck was ridiculously dominant, and honestly, if you really had such a great track record against GG, why didn't you win worlds? Should've been easy for you RIGHT? RIGHT?!!?!?!?! Lmao.
 
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