Current Format

[Miamisportsfan45]

I've seen players making masters semifinals at Regionals with Durant without even knowing what Mewtwo EX does before the tournament. And yes, there also were good players at the tournament. If that isn't a proof that Durant takes no skill, what else do you need?

I can't stand Durant just as much as the next guy. But in all honesty, Durant requires a lot of skill. More skill than people realize. I've encountered the same particular moments too, having to do with Durant players and Mewtwo EX, but they didn't manage to top cut. Actually, I believe they finished even.

Maybe it's just the area you're playing in that's giving you this misconception?

Making a Durant decklist isn't as easy as it seems though. With all decks, you need to know your matchups. A good portion of luck comes into any game because again, this is a TCG. All TCG's and/or games in general have to do with some kind of luck.

Needless to say that Durant requires skill because it's clearly strategy based and netdecking a list doesn't exactly make the list. There's tons of option and variety to change things up a bit for individuality and every minor tweak makes a drastic difference. That one card tech you used makes a major difference regardless of whether it's a fighting Pokemon to counter Zekrom or a staple to counter Durant. The way you play makes a huge difference and so does the list. Resulting in individuality. Just thought I'd put that out there to open this response up a bit.

I agree that HS-NV was the best format we got in this season. Too bad CCs lost importance this year. =/

I'll agree with you on how the early season looked too... bland. But again, we had to just make do with what we had and make a competitive scenario of what was modified at the time. There were more variety than was to be expected too, afterall and great players enjoy the challenge that early in the season presented us.

You didn't play in the EX / delta seasons, did you? There were almost no donks, and thanks to the Holon Engine, bad starts were very rare in a well-built deck. And even if you got a slow starts, there weren't decks that rushed you from T1 on. There were lots of competitive, skill-based cards, you could make so many decks run.

Regardless of whether the person this was intended for did or not, I did play at that point in time and I top cut frequently. The early stages of ex, just like right now for instance, had many donks. If I recall correctly, rare candy was allowed on the first turn. Wasn't Quick Search Pidgeot in the early ex format?

This format is based on Catcher. That may not be good, but you can't just ban Catcher. Other cards, like Reuniclus, would instantly become broken (well, at least, before Raikou EX hits the field). However I agree it's too strong, but maybe Junk Arm will be rotated soon, making Catcher a lot more balanced then.

Correction. This format is dominated by Junk Arm and dependable on and feared by Catcher. You'll see and be surprised by how much of a difference it makes after a HGSS rotation occurs. Once Twins, Lost Remover, Junk Arm, and a few other notable cards are gone, you'll see. Trust me.

The format right isn't the best, no doubt. But looking at the upcoming sets, I think it will get better. Both Dark Explorer and the dragon sets have some interesting cards that hurt Mewtwo EX. Dark Explorers may give non-Vileplume evolution a chance again (Empoleon etc). The dragon set has some interesting skill cards.

I agreed with you up until the Dragon set comment. :nonono:

Replied back in blue.

 

[psychup2034]

Current Format: its HGSS-on isn't it?

Though at times it seems like Base all over again.

This might be intentional, as the parallel video games also seem like Red/Blue/Yellow all over again. (A Mewtwo as the BCIF? This is like 2000 all over again.) Brings back a lot of good memories. I like it! :lol:

 

[Sweet]

Because you want the skill factor? Or not? It's up to you . . . no-one forces you to run Durant. Run Troll. Or Zek/Eels, or CMT . . . buy or trade for the cards you need. Simple.

If you're looking to do well, more than have fun, which most people are, my point still stands. Would you much rather have a laugh at Nationals, or win?

They were wrong. Cost is not the worst thing about YGO. Not by a long shot.

Cost has nothing to do with how good a format is, or how much skill is involved. I thought that was your point?

What is the worst part then? These are people who compete in Yu-gi-oh tournaments and know stuff, do you? Cost doesn't affect much - but it's still a pain for poor players.

I'm not even sure what your point is about Luxchomp anymore.

That with Luxray you only needed 1, unlike 2-3 with Mewtwo EX :tongue:

Yes! Variety WITH CATCHER IN THE FORMAT . . . y'know, the card that you claimed 'prevents' variety

That was because trainer lock was good. Now with Mewtwo, you have no chance of setting up a stage 2.

No, it doesn't sound harsh, just a bit ignorant.

If you're telling me that there is nothing more to Durant than Lost Remover and Crushing Hammer then I will start to wonder about your experience.

It's common sense, Durant is a no-brainer. Here's an example (I'll try my best!) -

You have a completely random person, never played Pokemon before but they know the basic rules. (I know, I know just read on)

You have 3 hours to teach them a deck, not the standard things like prizes, how many cards you draw, how many cards in a deck etc

Would you get more progress from a Durant deck or a Zekeel's deck?

correction catcher isn't too good reversal broke the format catcher made it less luck based but they came out with cards to balence out the

I hated Reversal flips as much as the next kid, but if it was good, why make an even better card when you could make some sort of counter?

Matthew Koo, Ontario Provincials, first place. Mel Miranda, British Columbia Provincials, 3rd place. Top Cutting with Durant takes a lot of skill, especially in the format we're working with right now.

I have no clue who those people are. Deck list wise MAYBE - but the best Durant lists usually (not always) have no techs.

Strawman. I was using any example, and therefore it's no way indicative of the population sample I'm referring. I also recall Gengar C was played by Tommy Roberts, one of the highest ranking players in the UK during the SP era. Your value judgment has no bearing on the argument at hand and it not on topic.

Gengar Garchomp did badly against the BDIF, Luxchomp... He avoided Luxchomp's to do well.

You're implying a consistent distribution when certain metas can have a variety of different players and decks, thus skewing the cost-benefit relationship. In a format with more Luxchomps, it's much more important on a prize argument to have that 2-2 Luxray, because the chances of you getting Power Sprayed on a Time Walk goes up drastically. Be more mindful of tenuous relationships before you tell me to 'do more statistics'.

I averaged it out, it's not perfect (obviously) but it's a pretty good guide seeing as you had Gyarados, Vilegar etc doing well too (not as good, but still) My statistic point still stands, it's a solid arguement.

So did Machamp. Machamp got complaints, but never distorted the format. What made Shuppet so special?

Shuppet donked more. Shuppet could donk if they had multiple basics.

Which people? Where? I don't see any more hate for the GG format than here, looking through Pokegym's older threads.

You bother to look through old Pokegym posts...? Anyways, people hated it. More people hated it than the more people who liked it.

Replies in black. I don't appreciate your tone. It's obvious I should not have been involved in this thread.

You get rattled by a Pokemon card debate online? It's a debate, people get rude to some extent. Professional debaters argue all the time, doesn't mean they aren't good at it. If you have no good come back, I don't blame you for trying to wriggle out of this thread.

 

[chrataxe]

For the love of colors...Durant takes no skill, lets get over it. Why do skilled players keep top cutting with it? Because they are more skilled than the other monkeys playing it. I promise you, Erik Nance (won second at NC w/Durant, if I remember correctly- the first "very skillfull" player I can think of that did good with it) will beat my son 9/10 times in either a Durant Mirror, and both trading off where Erik plays durant while my son plays something else, then then my son plays Durant while Erik plays something else. Erik win's because he is better. Erik is better than me too, but if I were to pick up Durant and do the same thing, it would look a lot more like 50/50-favorable. One could argue that Uxie donk took skill too, to know when you had to Dual Ball and grab a Unown R or a Crobat. I went 3-1 against durant this season, so I can't really complain, but the one I lost went like this: I'm playing Feraligatr/Kyurem/Zoroark. I start lone Kyurem. Normally, I would just go agro gatr, but can't with Kyurem start. So, I drop feraligatr and start spreading after a Raindance. I have 30 on Rotom and 60 on 4 Durants and about 40 cards left in my deck, to include a handful of water energy, a Super Rod, 2 DCE, 2 Switch, and 2 Junk Arm. I'm fully aware that the catcher is coming soon on my Feraligatr, but I'm not worried since I have many outs, which include retreating, attacking, or switching. Sure enough, he drops the catcher. In the next 3 turns, I watch 2 DCE, Super Rod, 2 Junk Arm, and 2 Switch go into the discard pile. My only out I had left was hitting 4 water energy and hoping for tails on crushing hammers. I see two water energies the rest of the game, not enough to retreat or attack. Not sure how skills becomes involved there. But, here's the worst part: had I actually taken 5 prizes on one turn like I was about to, he would have N'ed me to 1 Card, played 24 trainers to get all for Durants in play, catchered up my Feraligatr, then proceeded to do the same think. No, sorry, the deck takes no skill. Lets not confuse the deck skill level for the skill level of the player; a Skilled player can play a nonskillful deck and do better with it than a nonskillful player playing a nonskillful deck. Also, lets not confuse the skill needed to play a deck with the power of a deck. Decks CAN take zero skill and still be very powerful.

But, 2 things that really, really bug me right now is that the game play of the cards takes away from Pokemon the idea. The idea of Pokemon is that you take a a Pokemon into battle and over time, it becomes more powerful (level up, a la Level X) and evolves (a la Stage 1 and Stage 1). Unfortunately, this opportunity isn't there in this format. Truthfully, it wasn't really there last format either, but I liked the idea of SP: you could take the Pokemon of a Gym Leader and use them in battle without having to worry about evolving them during battle, which is how the gym leaders actually use their Pokemon. The difference between then and now is that we have basics that just don't do anything. But, more importantly than that, what does milling have to do with Pokemon? Oh, that's right, absolutely nothing. I don't have a problem with decking being a win condition, I have a problem with cards being printed that the point of them is to mill, like Durant and KGL. I have no problem with cards that discard here and there, but when the whole point is to force your opponent to lose by decking, that card has no place in a game like Pokemon....or ANY TCG, for that matter, since the whole point of the TCG you play is to SOMEWHAT emulate the title of the game and NO TCG has milling as part of its anime/video game/whatever. But, I digress...

As for the format, I'm not a fan. The Mewtwo war isn't as grand as everyone makes it out to be. In fact, its really simple: don't drop Mewtwo if you aren't in a position to win the Mewtwo war. If you have a Mewtwo in hand and a collector in hand, don't drop the Mewtwo first. Take away your opponents options, force them to drop first. The exchange goes one of a couple of ways: they drop for a KO (1), you drop for a revenge (2), they drop for a revenge (3), you drop for a revenge (4). Its not rocket science to see what kind of position you need to be in to start that exchange. If you drop first, you need to have taken three prizes. If you drop second, you need to be able to account for two prizes somehow, either before or after. Throw in a Super Rod, a Revive, some Junk Arms, and maybe even another Mewtwo if you can. Either way, the point is, there isn't as much skill involved as everyone says. Truth be told, there wasn't as much skill involved in the Garchomp war either, though I think an SP mirror was way more skillful than a Mewtwo varient mirror since Mewtwo gives up so many prizes and makes for a short game.

As for the rest of the Meta, I find it quite boring as well. Cities was awesome. Its not the limited number of decks that I find boring, its the fact that you can almost guess card for card someone's list. The conundrum it makes is that it makes it quite easy to guess what is coming next so you can counter it. But, the other part of the conundrum is that the decks are so powerful, there's not a lot you can do about it.

 

[Sweet]

For the love of colors...Durant takes no skill, lets get over it. Why do skilled players keep top cutting with it? Because they are more skilled than the other monkeys playing it. I promise you, Erik Nance (won second at NC w/Durant, if I remember correctly- the first "very skillfull" player I can think of that did good with it) will beat my son 9/10 times in either a Durant Mirror, and both trading off where Erik plays durant while my son plays something else, then then my son plays Durant while Erik plays something else. Erik win's because he is better. Erik is better than me too, but if I were to pick up Durant and do the same thing, it would look a lot more like 50/50-favorable. One could argue that Uxie donk took skill too, to know when you had to Dual Ball and grab a Unown R or a Crobat. I went 3-1 against durant this season, so I can't really complain, but the one I lost went like this: I'm playing Feraligatr/Kyurem/Zoroark. I start lone Kyurem. Normally, I would just go agro gatr, but can't with Kyurem start. So, I drop feraligatr and start spreading after a Raindance. I have 30 on Rotom and 60 on 4 Durants and about 40 cards left in my deck, to include a handful of water energy, a Super Rod, 2 DCE, 2 Switch, and 2 Junk Arm. I'm fully aware that the catcher is coming soon on my Feraligatr, but I'm not worried since I have many outs, which include retreating, attacking, or switching. Sure enough, he drops the catcher. In the next 3 turns, I watch 2 DCE, Super Rod, 2 Junk Arm, and 2 Switch go into the discard pile. My only out I had left was hitting 4 water energy and hoping for tails on crushing hammers. I see two water energies the rest of the game, not enough to retreat or attack. Not sure how skills becomes involved there. But, here's the worst part: had I actually taken 5 prizes on one turn like I was about to, he would have N'ed me to 1 Card, played 24 trainers to get all for Durants in play, catchered up my Feraligatr, then proceeded to do the same think. No, sorry, the deck takes no skill. Lets not confuse the deck skill level for the skill level of the player; a Skilled player can play a nonskillful deck and do better with it than a nonskillful player playing a nonskillful deck. Also, lets not confuse the skill needed to play a deck with the power of a deck. Decks CAN take zero skill and still be very powerful.

But, 2 things that really, really bug me right now is that the game play of the cards takes away from Pokemon the idea. The idea of Pokemon is that you take a a Pokemon into battle and over time, it becomes more powerful (level up, a la Level X) and evolves (a la Stage 1 and Stage 1). Unfortunately, this opportunity isn't there in this format. Truthfully, it wasn't really there last format either, but I liked the idea of SP: you could take the Pokemon of a Gym Leader and use them in battle without having to worry about evolving them during battle, which is how the gym leaders actually use their Pokemon. The difference between then and now is that we have basics that just don't do anything. But, more importantly than that, what does milling have to do with Pokemon? Oh, that's right, absolutely nothing. I don't have a problem with decking being a win condition, I have a problem with cards being printed that the point of them is to mill, like Durant and KGL. I have no problem with cards that discard here and there, but when the whole point is to force your opponent to lose by decking, that card has no place in a game like Pokemon....or ANY TCG, for that matter, since the whole point of the TCG you play is to SOMEWHAT emulate the title of the game and NO TCG has milling as part of its anime/video game/whatever. But, I digress...

As for the format, I'm not a fan. The Mewtwo war isn't as grand as everyone makes it out to be. In fact, its really simple: don't drop Mewtwo if you aren't in a position to win the Mewtwo war. If you have a Mewtwo in hand and a collector in hand, don't drop the Mewtwo first. Take away your opponents options, force them to drop first. The exchange goes one of a couple of ways: they drop for a KO (1), you drop for a revenge (2), they drop for a revenge (3), you drop for a revenge (4). Its not rocket science to see what kind of position you need to be in to start that exchange. If you drop first, you need to have taken three prizes. If you drop second, you need to be able to account for two prizes somehow, either before or after. Throw in a Super Rod, a Revive, some Junk Arms, and maybe even another Mewtwo if you can. Either way, the point is, there isn't as much skill involved as everyone says. Truth be told, there wasn't as much skill involved in the Garchomp war either, though I think an SP mirror was way more skillful than a Mewtwo varient mirror since Mewtwo gives up so many prizes and makes for a short game.

As for the rest of the Meta, I find it quite boring as well. Cities was awesome. Its not the limited number of decks that I find boring, its the fact that you can almost guess card for card someone's list. The conundrum it makes is that it makes it quite easy to guess what is coming next so you can counter it. But, the other part of the conundrum is that the decks are so powerful, there's not a lot you can do about it.

Completely agree with this!

 

[nnaann]

For me personally, the format was at it's worst point straight after the rotation, and the release of Next Destinies has been a huge step forward for the game. The introduction of EXs and the popularity of N have meant that players are punished for playing recklessly, and need to maintain their resources well in order to win a game. Decks like Zekrom/Eelektrik have multiple Pokemon which are able to attack, and it does take some skill to predict in advance which will be needed later on.

My main issue with this format is that it's bland, and there isn't a great deal of difference between most of the popular decks at the moment, with the exception of Durant. In recent years, the majority of decks aim to win through taking six prizes, but also offer 'something extra' in order to have an edge in that game. Decks like Dialgachomp and Steelix aimed to tank a Pokemon so that it couldn't be knocked out, Plox and Palkia G tried to lock the opponent's Poke Powers, Regigigas went behind on prizes to use a variety of options, Vileplume/Gengar locked the opponent's trainers and aimed to slow their deck down, while Sablelock used various Supporter cards to lock the opponent with a bad hand.

Currently, most decks just deal damage to take six prizes as quickly as possible, and that's about it. Although it may not seem like it, most decks are pretty similar and are just separated by different type advantage, and the balance between how quickly a deck can set up and the damage it can do.

I'm really suprised by people defending Durant as a deck that takes skill. Of course, any deck (even a theme deck), will require a certain level of skill. However the amount needed to play Durant correctly is so low, it's pretty bad for the game's current state. I've spoken to a lot of players who have performed well with the deck, and the majority said that they chose it for being an easy option which didn't require them to test this format, but still gave them a good chance at winning. I'm confident that I could take someone who doesn't play Pokemon at all, teach them Durant in about three hours, and have them at least maintain a X-X record in tournaments.

I guess that throughout Pokemon's history, there have always been decks that fall into this category, such as Shuppet Donk. The main issue I see with Durant is that it's seeing a lot of play because it's the only real alternative for people who can't afford Mewtwo EXs, who still want a good shot at winning a tournament. It's not a particularly healthy state for the game to be in, and TCPi should have really done something when Next Destinies was first released in order to control it's secondary market price.

 

[Sweet]

For me personally, the format was at it's worst point straight after the rotation, and the release of Next Destinies has been a huge step forward for the game. The introduction of EXs and the popularity of N have meant that players are punished for playing recklessly, and need to maintain their resources well in order to win a game.

I really liked the format before Next Destinie's - there was so much variety in decks. Now there's just Zekeel, CMT, Durant and Troll. I don't see how the format has become better. Eleborate?

I like N, and I don't. In some ways it's nice - another draw supporter, makes the winner more wary. But then again, the amount of people who say that they've been N'd down to 1 and had to watch the opponent win the game as they top deck nothing is bad.

The rest of your post I agree with.

 

[ShadowGuard]

I can't stand Durant just as much as the next guy. But in all honesty, Durant requires a lot of skill. More skill than people realize. I've encountered the same particular moments too, having to do with Durant players and Mewtwo EX, but they didn't manage to top cut. Actually, I believe they finished even.

The players probably didn't get enough luck.
And no, its not a matter of area. As I said, there were skilled players, like last year's European Champion etc. Some of them lost to Durant because of bad openings and lucky flips of the Durant player.

Regardless of whether the person this was intended for did or not, I did play at that point in time and I top cut frequently. The early stages of ex, just like right now for instance, had many donks. If I recall correctly, rare candy was allowed on the first turn. Wasn't Quick Search Pidgeot in the early ex format?

Yes, T1 Rare Candy was allowed. Yes, Quick Search was in the format. But there were very few Pokémon that did donk-range (50+) damage on turn 1. Mainly because there weren't any Pokémon to do good damage for only one energy, and the only multi-energy were DRE (which reduced damage and couldn't be attached to basics and ex), Scramble (only if behind in prizes, so obviously not suitable for donks) and Holon's Pokémon (needed extra attachment). Oh yes, there also was Boost Energy which possibly could donk but very few decks played it.

Correction. This format is dominated by Junk Arm and dependable on and feared by Catcher. You'll see and be surprised by how much of a difference it makes after a HGSS rotation occurs. Once Twins, Lost Remover, Junk Arm, and a few other notable cards are gone, you'll see. Trust me.

I know that the rotation of Junk Arm will change a lot. btw Lost Remover isn't that kind of problem since we get that new Hammer.

For me personally, the format was at it's worst point straight after the rotation, and the release of Next Destinies has been a huge step forward for the game. The introduction of EXs and the popularity of N have meant that players are punished for playing recklessly, and need to maintain their resources well in order to win a game. Decks like Zekrom/Eelektrik have multiple Pokemon which are able to attack, and it does take some skill to predict in advance which will be needed later on.

NV made the format better. ND didn't, not at all.
Mewtwo wars usually are decided by whether one player topdecks after the final N. Can't see the skill here. Of course, you can influence probability if you play well-thought, but that's all. In other formats, there were a lot of other skills involved, like making out-of-the-box-moves, using attacks of pre-evolutions (Flygon line!), thinking ahead to make safe plays, counting opponent's resources ect. And most important, the right use and prediction of techs like Dusknoir, Nidoqueen, or even 1-0-1 Machamp.

 

[vivrelastache]

So, you have a distaste for the format. Cool beans; I understand that. Now, what exactly are you trying to prove/do with all of this that hasn't been run into the ground here, here, to an extent here as well, etc.? Unless you're trying to rally the masses together in some way to make a stand against TPCi, P!P, Nintendo, etc., handing them a multi-player ultimatum of "change this, or we walk," then why do we need another less-than-professional "debate" fueling this Inferno Fandango?

Anyway, more to the point...

What are peoples thoughts on it?

The problems I see -

Mewtwo EX is essential in any deck other than Durant. You'll either need 2-3 depending on if you run CMT or not. They're expensive.
Yes, Mewtwo-EX is powerful. Yes, Mewtwo-EX is format-changing. Yes, Mewtwo-EX is the most expensive card for modified tournament play. Is it essential in any deck? No, not by any means, other than CMT (for reasons that should be apparent).

Because it is the most obvious direct counter to itself, Mewtwo-EX is mistakenly viewed as the only counter-play. There are many options available to you determined by your deck constuction/focus. In ZekEels, all you need is to trade off blows with Zekrom, Thundarus/Tornadus, Zapdos, even Zebstrika is an option! As long as you play and spread skillfully, you can take a 2 to 1 prize count in your favor, without the support of any EX pokemon required. Durant doesn't even bother with Mewtwo-EX, as it is blind to (most) opposing attack strategies. Dark decks have built-in resistance, which kicks Mewtwo-EX's struggle up a notch, while dishing out top damage to it. Donphan Prime just laughs at it, a deck which will be back as of Dark Explorers guarenteed. Any Reshiram-based deck requires a lot of focus from Mewtwo for it to be seen as problematic, as it discards the energy too consistently. Etc., etc.

LSS, using Mewtwo-EX is not essential to play a good/viable deck, and is by no means the only way to deal with itself. Does it help? Yes, of course. Do you absolutely need 2-3? No, of course you don't. You just need skill, an ability to adapt strategy, a willingness to make a sacrifice for the greater good in the match, and, as always, a little luck doesn't hurt.

As for the price of Mewtwo-EX: this, to me, seems like a dead-horse argument. Like I conceded earlier, it is the "most expensive card for modified tournament play" (at this very moment). This gripe is a litte melodramatic to me. Mewtwo-EX maxes out in price around $75 dollars, though most players can find them for $60 or so thanks to the internet (excluding T&T, naturally). While this is expensive to many Pokémon players, it is not the most atrotious or even unexpected price seen by seasoned TCG players. M:tG has had many, many cards go for similar prices, and up, over it's 20-ish+ years, and YGO is beyond comparison for pricing due to its chase-based card play, horrible card/pack distribution, etc. I'm frankly getting a little frustrated with all the sour grapes concerning price points of better cards simply because they're not less than $19, or included in a tin, or both.

Either way, it's been out through less than one full set-cycle. Talk to me next month about prices/usability/"broken-ness", especially after Donphan Prime shoots up in price and collectability (again) now that it's far beyond steady distribution.


Durant takes no skill. People can find the lists online with websites like 6 prizes underground. It's either the 3rd or 4th best deck.
This is an example of players mistaking "lowered complexity," along with a deck's strategy and price point (something that was an apparent issue concerning Mewtwo-EX, but is condemned in this instance) with "no skill whatsoever." Does Durant have a simplistic learning curve? Yes, it does. Is it cheap and readily available to all who want to play it? Yes, it is. Does that make it a skill-less deck? Obviously not, or else it wouldn't be a (sort-of) top deck. If it were skill-less, it would be luck-based. Period.

The internet, including the aforemetioned Six Prizes and including this very forum, have always been a haven for deck lists, strategy discussions and metagame articles. How is this case any different from any arch-type in the past? Besides, Six Prizes also had a nifty Post-States statistics article available, which noted how well Durant (and various other decks) did overall. The results? It placed less and less-consistently overall compared to Fighting-type decks.

Besides, if there's no skill involved, then what's the gripe? If a deck takes no skill, then it should be easy enough to outplay, right?


Going first is too good.
This concern is the most salient, but still not much to worry about in the long-term. If/when the format is cut to BW-On, this will drop (for the most part) as an issue, because the card interactions will shift. There will be less direct set-up and disruption available to the player turn one, and as such it will work itself out, albeit slowly for the metagame at the moment as this is something that is rotation-dependent.

Pokemon Catcher is too good.
At the moment, PC is rather potent, but is is mainly due to Junk Arm, which allows for up to eight gusts in any given deck. Now, does that make it "too good" (a value-based statement that is relative to the speaker, not the game state)? I would still argue, no it does not. It simply changes the way a player needs to strategize their playing methods and allows true player interaction and skill to shine (something apparently lacking from one of the top decks, anyway).

Without it, we'd have bench sitters affecting the game state that would be too well-protected just because a player never moves them to the active positon (Fliptini/Gardevoir/Reuniclus/Shaymin UL, just to name a few). Otherwise, there's no inherint complication in you or your opponent playing them.

Again, this still only presents more of a set-up problem due to use with JA, and more specifically to Stage Two decks. The latter "issue" leading us to the final gripe...


Basic decks are the only playable decks.
...yes. And, so... What, exactly? It's an issue? It allows for less variety and fewer decks to feel viable in this format since there have only been four Basic-Pokémon-based sets so far? Is this really an issue, or more a statement based upon the current metagame? If it's the former, then how exactly is it an issue aside from the fact that it's not the format you/the player base desires, which is implied to be Evolution-based? In any case, this simply becomes a value-based argument reflecting upon any given player's affinity for the style of the format, not necessarily on the format's, I don't know, "objective playability," for lack of a better term.

The player base's attitude at the moment is what's becoming stagnant, not the cards. If you don't like the game, then don't play. But, please, stop trying to discourage everyone else around you from enjoying the game/discussing strategy to help improve the format constructively/helping new players develop skill, not soured outlooks on the game. I'm not against debate in a repectful setting, but arguing the point that "this is the internet, so stuff can get real (rude)!" is not, in any way, a good strategy to gain support and understanding from those who don't already believe ad identify with your point(s).
Posted with Mobile style...

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

Forgive me for mostly skimming this thread, but it mostly seems like a concentrated version of the recent arguments as such I've prepared a list of problems I noted.

Durant requires no skill

Wrong. Durant requires a different form of skill. Learning what you need and when to play your disruption is a lot more difficult and important than some of you might think. If it were as simple as you make it sound then Durant would be almost entirely in or out of cut, but it's not some make it in and others don't.

This format has no variety

Wrong, we as players have just decided to stop going Rogue.

A rather common sentiment I've been seeing is 'this deck isn't good because of X,' and then the topic is dropped. However there are plenty of options in this format, including the underplayed The Truth, Zeebz, Leofeon/Amoongus, VVV, Gothitelle/Gardevoir, and more. While not easily the top tier decks, rogue decks have rarely proved to be an impossible play, or even a bad play. Just because something is Tier 1 doesn't mean it's the only deck in format.

So in short try to experiment with different decks, after all let's not forget that Durant was a 'joke deck' before cities, and became one of the most frustrating decks in the format. The same could conceivably be done with other decks.

There aren't any counters to Mewtwo EX.

Once more wrong. Remember that Mewtwo EX is...well and EX, which puts it at a disadvantage to other Pokemon. Cards like Tornadus, Reshiram, and most of the other bulky basics can be take the job of taking it down. Sure it might take two attacks, but you'll still come out on top.

This format focuses too much on basics

What most of you are actually saying is that "All of the main attackers are basics," because otherwise Eelektrik would like a shocking statement otherwise.

In any case, while true this doesn't actually mean much of anything. Basics have taken the focus of the attacking portion of the format, but if you'd notice there are far fewer set-up basics, especially outside of the HS block.

Lets be real here in the past most basics (outside of SPs) were generally dwarfed in comparison by Evolutions, which meant most decks focused on evolutions and evolutions only. This format has only switched the focus, and once the transition period is over I'm positive most of you will be over it.

(I'd even bet if the focus reverted then many would be complaining about the hard to get out evolutions)

Pokemon Catcher is broken

No it isn't. Abusable yes. Very good yes. Broken no.

Active switching has been a focus of the game since Luxray GL was released, before that Pokemon Reversal was only sometimes used, and since then the meta has been dominated by such effects. Additionally in a format like this where sniping is hard to come by it evens the playing field allowing for easier comeback power, and with Raikou EX coming out it will be incredibly important to keep the balance.

Also people stop using those colors, they're annoying to read.

 

[Pidgeotto Trainer]

It's clear that the last few years there have been a smaller amount of 'good' decks that were popular at any moment in the format than roughly 05-07. Part of this is the cards, part of this is that there are more players than ever before joining the game, copying what's winning, and a couple decks emerge as by far the most popular. Or perhaps the larger number of players just makes the metagame 'sort itself out' faster and the best decks rise to the top faster. (these last 2 sentences are different things, either a smaller number of decks are in reality better, or a couple decks that are very good-maybe not best-get so popular that they will win most tournaments). I'm not sure what has been the dominant effect, but the game is very different from 5 years to go in this respect.


I suppose another effect is that decks have just gotten faster and more aggressive: SP, Mewtwo, Catchers, t1 rules. I don't feel like this is a main reason for the stagnancy of decks (slow decks can still emerge as the best and be copied), but I can see this meaning mirrors become more luck based.

 

[EliGagerNorris]

Please stop griping about Durant taking no skill. When building a Durant list the content certainly matters, and if you aren't using the correct combination of cards, you are at a disadvantage.

Also, it's not like Durant swept States. The few States it won were played by dedicated top players who tested the deck endlessly and eventually found the right combination of cards to make the deck work.

Durant is my favorite deck to play. If you dislike the deck, then don't play it. It's honestly that simple.

 

[Vablakes]

Please stop griping about Durant taking no skill. When building a Durant list the content certainly matters, and if you aren't using the correct combination of cards, you are at a disadvantage.

Also, it's not like Durant swept States. The few States it won were played by dedicated top players who tested the deck endlessly and eventually found the right combination of cards to make the deck work.

Durant is my favorite deck to play. If you dislike the deck, then don't play it. It's honestly that simple.

Hmmmm... Didn't say that about Reshiboar over on 6P, did you? You get angry about people saying Durant isn't good, takes no skill, Ect. But made close to the same statements about Reshiboar. And now for my opinion on the format.

I hate it. They have made basics to powerful. Mewtwo is overpowering and broken. Catcher is to good. Zekrom/Eels is all you ever see. I am honestly getting tired of playing against Zekrom/Eels all day every day. I hate the format. But what can I do? I wouldn't quit because I love Pokemon and the Pokemon community so much. I'll just wait for Mewtwo and Catcher to be gone, and do the best I can until then! I am one of the fortunate players that has Mewtwos, but I still dislike him.

 

[Broken Pokemon EX]

This format is garbage. It's a 2 deck format right now (MTC and Zek/Eels) with only a couple of exceptions. If EXes had never been reintroduced into the game, it would be flourishing. The format was incredible right before Next Destinies thanks to the great card pool NV gave us. Yes there were big basics before, but not quite to the extent that we have now. There were also finally so many different viable decks (ZPST, ReshiPhlosion, The Truth, Magnezone/Eels, CoKE, ChandyPlume, Durant, D&D, 6 Corners, Mewbox, etc) and we would have several more probably if EXes weren't back. This the reason I'm not playing Regionals this weekend. I was bored to death with the matchups by the end of two weekends of States despite doing well at NC.

My solution to the problem with the format probably won't happen but I think it would be great for the game. Japan needs to quit making more EXes and start printing legendaries as a different type of card. Reintroduce legendary pokemon under the pokemon type "Legend" instead of "Basic" (but without the goofy 2 card piece stuff from HGSS) so they aren't as easily searched out and can't abuse cards like eviolite, skyarrow, etc, nerf their average HP to around 140, and ditch the 2 prize rule.

I think it would be great for the game and I've been waiting for "Legend" to become a standard pokemon type after its awkward introduction in the HGSS sets.

 

[EliGagerNorris]

Hmmmm... Didn't say that about Reshiboar over on 6P, did you? You get angry about people saying Durant isn't good, takes no skill, Ect. But made close to the same statements about Reshiboar.

Since when did people say that Reshiboar takes no skill? My point over on SixPrizes was that Reshiboar is greatly outclassed by Zekeels, and you expected to do well with a deck that just can't compete with Zekeels and CMT. Durant is a different matter, it uses a completely different strategy than Reshiboar and Zekeels.

 

[baby mario]

Hmmmm... Didn't say that about Reshiboar over on 6P, did you? You get angry about people saying Durant isn't good, takes no skill, Ect. But made close to the same statements about Reshiboar. And now for my opinion on the format.

It's completely different. For a start, no-one is saying Durant isn't good. If it wasn't, it wouldn't even get a mention. In fact people's problem with Durant is that they believe that even an unskilled player can easily do well with it.

Reshiboar, on the other hand, was getting hate because certain people kept insisting it was a good deck (I believe you were going to prove it was tier 1.5) despite the fact that the comparable decks Reshiphlosion and (especially) Zek/Eels are demonstrably superior. In other words, no matter how skillful a player is, they are always going to be fighting an uphill battle because of their poor deck choice.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

This format is garbage. It's a 2 deck format right now (MTC and Zek/Eels) with only a couple of exceptions. If EXes had never been reintroduced into the game, it would be flourishing. The format was incredible right before Next Destinies thanks to the great card pool NV gave us. Yes there were big basics before, but not quite to the extent that we have now. There were also finally so many different viable decks (ZPST, ReshiPhlosion, The Truth, Magnezone/Eels, CoKE, ChandyPlume, Durant, D&D, 6 Corners, Mewbox, etc) and we would have several more probably if EXes weren't back. This the reason I'm not playing Regionals this weekend. I was bored to death with the matchups by the end of two weekends of States despite doing well at NC.

My solution to the problem with the format probably won't happen but I think it would be great for the game. Japan needs to quit making more EXes and start printing legendaries as a different type of card. Reintroduce legendary pokemon under the pokemon type "Legend" instead of "Basic" (but without the goofy 2 card piece stuff from HGSS) so they aren't as easily searched out and can't abuse cards like eviolite, skyarrow, etc, nerf their average HP to around 140, and ditch the 2 prize rule.

I think it would be great for the game and I've been waiting for "Legend" to become a standard pokemon type after its awkward introduction in the HGSS sets.

In what way is this a two deck format. I know that people think that options have gone down, but it isn't that drastically low, not even close. Durant is still competitive, Reshiphlosion, while not dominant is more than playable, and the same goes for Magnezone, and that's not to mention what rogue brought us in the form of Quad Terrakion.

Rogue, while not popular is more than viable too. I know someone who did amazingly well with a Gardevoir/Gothitelle list and made T8 and another made T4 at NM.

 

[Broken Pokemon EX]

In what way is this a two deck format. I know that people think that options have gone down, but it isn't that drastically low, not even close. Durant is still competitive, Reshiphlosion, while not dominant is more than playable, and the same goes for Magnezone, and that's not to mention what rogue brought us in the form of Quad Terrakion.

Rogue, while not popular is more than viable too. I know someone who did amazingly well with a Gardevoir/Gothitelle list and made T8 and another made T4 at NM.

I was being very general when I said 2 deck format. But I'd still say it's 75% MTC/ZekEels variants and the other 25% being Durant, Terrakion, the random ReshiPhlosion, etc. Yes there are other decks being played but I really think there's no denying the format has much less variety than it did prior to ND.

 

[baby mario]

Honestly, the format is evolving and changing all the time.

Through Cities we had a huge variety of decks, with the top decks being Stage 2s (Chandy and Eel/Zone)

Through States/Regs we had a Basic/Mewtwo dominated format with a few counter decks and Durant

For Nats/Worlds we will likely have Dark decks, speed decks featuring Tornadus-EX, plus existing decks will develop somewhat.

After that, it's Dragons and then who knows?

Pokemon goes in cycles. Yeah, your favourite deck type might not be great right now, yeah there may be one or two dominant decks (which doesn't make it a bad format btw), but things were very different a short while ago, and will be different again.

Adapt. Ride it out. Enjoy the game.

 

[Vablakes]

Since when did people say that Reshiboar takes no skill? My point over on SixPrizes was that Reshiboar is greatly outclassed by Zekeels, and you expected to do well with a deck that just can't compete with Zekeels and CMT. Durant is a different matter, it uses a completely different strategy than Reshiboar and Zekeels.

And you kept attacking went I went defensive about it. You kept going on about how ZekEels outclassed it even though it was clear that I didn't want to hear about ZekEels, I wanted to hear about Reshiboar. I even stated that if you told me that it was a bad deck and that I should play ZekEels I was going to go off in the original post, you still posted it. I just thought I would point out that you are defending the deck out of personal bias, just like I was. And I have been told that defending a deck because of personal bias will cause you not to grow as a player. And now you are jumping to the defensive when someone simply states, not directed at you or any oher Durant player, that Durant is a deck that takes almost no brains to play.