Determining 3rd & 4th Place; 2008 US States & Regionals

Discussion in 'TCG News & Gossip Discussion' started by PokeDaddy, Nov 30, 2007.

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  1. PokeDaddy

    PokeDaddy New Member

    Presently,Trophies are given out to the Top 3 players in each age division in the upcoming States and Regionals.

    How will 3rd and 4th be determined?

    With Premier Ratings larger in the States and Regs, having to play for 3rd or 4th could cause further loss of points for one player.

    There are several ways to appoach this (so far):

    1. Keep the system as it is and have the losers of the T4 play for 3rd/4th WITH ratings points on the line.
    2. Change the system so that the final ratings after Swiss determine 3rd/4th from the T4 losers.
    3. Change the system so that the losers of the T4 play for 3rd/4th WITHOUT ratings points on the line.​

    Just recall, the only thing that the 3rd place winner gets over the 4th place winner is the Trophy. All else is equal.

    This should not be treated like a POLL. A response like "I vote for #3" will get this thread locked faster than T2 Blissey. If there is enough interest in the topic, quite possibly a POLL will be started.

    And, please no SPAM like "light saber duel to the death determine's winner" (although I'd love it, lol). Treat this as a serious discussion. Potentially the T3/T4 determination can be adjusted if the general POP community has valuable feedback.

    Let's discuss.

    Thanks
    __________________
     
  2. Ultima

    Ultima New Member

    If a game is to decide the first and second place, I only think it reasonable for it to settle 3rd and 4th, with the ratings and all. It is a proper tournament game after all.
     
  3. Lawman

    Lawman Active Member

    Ultima: The top cut is actually a SEF = Single Elimination Final. Once you lose in the T4 (semifinals), you are technically "out" of the tourney bc you lost. I think a more fair proposal is #3, wherein you play for the trophy, but it is a non points match. That way, a great day for a t4 finisher @ States or Regionals doesnt end in a bummer 2 game loss streak (and potential loss of all or most of the points gained in swiss).

    Keith
     
  4. meganium45

    meganium45 Active Member

    I disagree Keith.

    As long as you are a part of the event, and playing in the event for prizes, then the points should count.

    Allowing judged, timed, official games for prizes not to count for points takes us on a slippery slope that would allow other "non-points" games to be used to decide other issues as well.

    The top cut, with a T3/4 is by definition NOT a SEF. You can lose in the Semifinal round and still be in the event. The top cut is a special type of event, with its own rules and parameters.

    If it is done by the ratings and rankings after the final swiss round, great.

    If they require a playoff to determine the winner (which in my opinion they should) then it should be a points game.

    If not points, then what about penalties? Would penalties in a non-points game really count? Should they? (Yes, but just making a point) What else will not count? What else is required? Should I even have a judge deal with that match?

    Are you then coming very close to making all Single Elimination Finals games not count for points, as all but one player will end with a loss?

    I think that more players will WANT to play the 3/4 matchup, as then they will feel that the trophy has been "won" and not determined by tiebreakers over which they had very little control (except W/L records)
     
  5. PokeDaddy

    PokeDaddy New Member

    Let's put a poll together then and hear from the players.
     
  6. Lawman

    Lawman Active Member

    Vince: I agree that most players will want to PLAY for the trophy, bc then they will feel like they won it. It is the 4th place finisher I am looking at more. Many players want to achieve that difficult goal of qualifying for Worlds. That equates to points.

    You make very good points about penalties though. The rules would still need to be enforced. IF you enable to option for a 3/4 playoff, then it isnt a SEF (once you get to T4 only)......all other aspects and rounds of the top cut are SEF. (T32 Nats, T16 Regs, T8 States)

    Keith
     
  7. JohnnyBlaze

    JohnnyBlaze New Member

    Single Elim is just that you lose and you are out. It would be totally unfair to have an extra match for 3rd Place. Thus solution #2 is the correct answer. And Im not so sure that it is a change. That is how 3rd + 4th are determined now during Cities.
     
  8. Lawman

    Lawman Active Member

    But it is not how it is done at States, Reg's, Nats and Worlds. 3rd and 4th play off in these tourneys. And that is what we are discussing, States and Reg's.

    Keith
     
  9. ryanvergel

    ryanvergel New Member

    I think Kettler did some analysis for how tournaments and playing for 3rd/4th could realllly hurt.

    He had quite a few examples where the 4th place finisher at a cities would gain less points then a person who just barely missed the cut and stuff like that.

    I don't think points should be on the line in the 3rd/4th match.
     
  10. JandPDS

    JandPDS New Member

    I perfer a playoff for 3rd and 4th

    Look the playoff for 3rd and 4th is a good thing. I settle for real the issue of who should get the 3rd place trophy. Yes the 4th place finisher gets a points hit but in all likelihood their points would just go back to about the same level that it was in the next to last round of swiss play, and for 85% of the people they will gain points overall for the day. (This problem could be completely eliminated by allowing a T16 at states therefore everyone who makes it to the Top 4 will have already gained Two wins in the top cut, and at worst would have about the same points after finishing 4th that they had after swiss rounds were over)

    Everyone is looking negatively at this. If I was fortunate to finish 4th in a States this year I would be ecstatic. I would hardly mope ... : Whoe is me, I was forced to play another round after I lost in T4, life is so unfair." I mean what are people playing in a State Championship for in he first place. I should hope they are playing to prove that they are one of the best players in that state. If they are just going for points, then they should just drop after swiss and not risk loosing those points that they earned, and then let someone into the Top cut who is actually there to try to win the event. And what about the 3rd place finisher. Her person who actually proved they desired 3rd place by winning the event. The playoffs are good for them becuase they gain back the points that they lost for loosing in T4.

    So the playoff between T4 losers in states and regionals is a fantastic thing for the 3rd place persons score, and a small negative to neutral (overall in the playoffs) effect on the 4th place finishers score.
    I agree if a match is played between players in the same age division, points have to be on the line. I do not agree that loosing points in T4 and again in 3rd/4th playoff causes undue hardships to players fortunate enough to have made it that far into the State/Regional/Nationals Championship.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2007
  11. HurricaneWarty

    HurricaneWarty New Member

    I think you should just go to the standings after the playoffs are completely finished. This way, if the X-0 loses in the T4 or something like that, they get a little more than just having the #1 seed. I personally don't have a problem with the swiss records helping to determine this.
     
  12. Scizor

    Scizor New Member

    Play it off for points, without a doubt. If someone loses, oh well. Might as well try and get as many points as you can at States/Regionals when Nationals is such a difficult tournament. Vince is right -- it should just be treated as a normal top cut game.
     
  13. SPARTA

    SPARTA New Member

    Playing for points would mean a person would lose points twice in a row. Thats retarded, Single Elimination means once you lose, you are out of the tournoment. How can you lose/gain points after you are out of the tournoment? A game played, sure, but no points on the line.
     
  14. Cyrus

    Cyrus Iron Chef - Master Emeritus

    Hi guys. Generally I've viewed the rating system in regards to top cuts as being flawed because it punishes successful players that don't win the tournament.

    Fourth place almost ALWAYS ends up with less points than the top eight OR top sixteen at a regional. Example: at the Southern Plains Regional, Dana Lynch ended with a 7-4 record, while people who lost in top sixteen (5-3) ended the day with more or less the same point gain...Ridiculous? I think so. While it's true that 7-4 is only a win % of about 63 (only 1% higher than 5-3), the position of FOURTH should hold some extra merit to it.

    Fourth place isn't the only top cut position "hurt" by current ELO, though. Anyone who makes the top cut, but LOSES in the first round, ends up doing worse than ANYONE who misses cut on resistance. Why should be punished for doing technically better?

    So my proposition is none of the three that you suggested, Steve. I feel that point losses in the top cut should be entirely done away with. If you only have more points to gain, and nothing to lose, then almost NOBODY would ever drop before a top cut. While I do feel that the undefeated in swiss might get a bit over-estimated, it's necessary to correct the huge problems in the system. Because 3rd/4th are similar, though, I think that that specific match shouldn't count for points.

    If you cancel out any point losses, then all major point problems are solved, and only one or two minor new problems result.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2007
  15. JandPDS

    JandPDS New Member

    You need to look at an elite Tournament (States, Regionals, Nationals or Worlds) as having 3 distinct levels. Swiss rounds, where everyone in the event plays is the 1st level. Then the players who performed the best move on the 2nd Level the playoffs (T8, T16, or T32) Then the players that perform the best move on to the Top 4 which is the final level. As long as there is a 3rd place trophy for these events there should be a playoff between the players who loose in the Top 4. Personally at these elite events I would like to see a 4th place Trophy or plaque for the person who makes it that far.
     
  16. Pidgeotto Trainer

    Pidgeotto Trainer New Member

    Someone who loses 2 matches, deserves to have it shown that they lost 2 matches. It's pretty clear they were the 'luckiest' of the 4 to get that far most of the time.
     
  17. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    But that's not really true.
    With the way tournaments are set up, someone HAS to lose in each match, regardless of how good a player they are.

    The top 4 players could be the best in the world, but in those playoff games to determine the top 2 and the playoff for 3/4, one of those world class players HAS to lose two games. Saying that they were just lucky to have gotten into the top 4 is ridiculous. The math of the tournament structure mandates that the player in 4th is going to take a hit. It has nothing to do with them being a luck sack or not.
     
  18. Prime

    Prime Content Developer<br>Blog Admin<br>Contest Host

    Why do 3rd and 4th play each other? 5th-8th don't play each other to see which ones come in what place. I understand the reason behind it, but honestly, I feel they should just get whatever place they entered the top 4 cut with. I don't see any problems arising from that.
     
  19. Pidgeotto Trainer

    Pidgeotto Trainer New Member

    Well, from experience I rarely see the the best 4 players get to the final 4. Usually someones matched up before that. 3rd vs 4th is a legitimate game for points in my eyes. It's unfortunate that 4th can get a worse result ratings wise than earlier eliminated players but it shouldn't be that big a difference. Even so, if your a good player but lose to two other good players, tough luck. You earn 3rd, you should earn the rating to go with it. If you go 0-2 in that top 4, your rating should show that. You didn't deserve a one loss record then. If the the top 16 losers had to playoff, then your rating is getting so broken down after making the playoffs that that would seem unfair. 4th place should still be a positive day, but not that positive and from the 2 losses, you didn't deserve a hugely good day.
     
  20. Cyrus

    Cyrus Iron Chef - Master Emeritus

    About a year or so back, I think both of us did a good job at articulating this viewpoint. Why? Because it's almost always true.

    However, lucky or not, the bottom line is that fourth did better than 5th-16th! The ranking system's goal is to reward people for good placements, yet fourth is _never_ rewarded. Lucky or not, only three people placed higher, and that's pretty good.

    I feel that the simple loss of a trophy is enough to back up our claim.
     
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