Discussion of City Championship TO compensation

Discussion in 'Archive' started by mtjimmer, Jan 16, 2004.

  1. mtjimmer

    mtjimmer Master Trainer, Emeritus

    Officially, we frown on public discussion regarding compensation. Quite frankly, it's unprofessional. As far as I'm aware, all of the City Championship TO's are being treated equally. If there is a problem with the compensation, we would like to know of it. Obviously, if it's within our budget/timing/manpower to rectify, we will make the attempt.

    Realistically, this event is for the players to compete for the title of City Champion, of their city. We put together something extra for tournament organizers who were interested in running it, and we're not really fascinated with the idea that the compensation becomes some sort of public spectacle. We encourage tournament organizers to bring their ideas and concerns to us at Pokémon Organized Play (in this case, tournaments@pokemon-tcg.com).

    Thanks for your time.

    Jimmer Sivertsen
    Pokémon Organized Play
     
  2. ukpokemonpro

    ukpokemonpro New Member

    Can you confirm that as ever any emails to you from outside the US will be shunted to the distributors as is the normal practice so this is strictly US only TO's that need email?

    Just like to know not to bother thanks...
     
  3. GymLeaderPhil

    GymLeaderPhil New Member

    WotC supported OP by supporting the staff first and the players a close second. That trickle down effect of support simply does not exist now. There is no support for the growth of judging staff. Support is being given to Players, Stores, Distributors, and Premiere Tournament Organizers, but not to the average TO or judge. Here's a diagram of what's going on:



    http://www.gameflorida.com/pop.jpg



    Money is being spent trying to bring players into the game and organized play. Meanwhile, the backbone of organized play has not changed since the big October announcement. There is no support for judges or organizers to do what they do. One can easily spend time working at their own job in the time it takes to run a Premiere Event and easily buy at least a box with that day's salary. Personally I would like to be at a Pokemon event other day, but that's for the sake of the argument. Even if that's not an option, the only support is nothing but boosters... there are no incentives to continue judging and organizing events.

    • The Ranking System is down, limited by password only.
    • Results are not listed on completed tournaments pages.
    • Professor Program has not opened for new participants and has not granted any improvements to those already involved.
    • Tournament Pairing Software is buggy, dysfunctional, and has caused plenty of errors in sanctioned events. There is no way to print out match slips or print out numerical results without ties.
    • Premiere Tournament Organizers did not receive ANY printed information prior to their EX: Dragon Prerelease resulting in problems with prizes, top eight information, reporting results, etc.
    • Reporting League/Tournament results online is a very large hassle and is still buggy.
    • POP IDs are given to TOs on a list with matching passwords. TOs now must give those POP IDs and matching passwords to players on their own paper versus the handy dandy DCI Registration Cards of days since past.
    • City Championship's byes will cause major errors to smaller State Champs and could be fraudulent.
    • There are no Penalty Guidelines for Sanctioned Tournaments and Events.
    • No advertisements about the GenCon SoCal Convention.
    • Original Promos are so far limited to products such as Magazines, Tins, and DVDs. Leagues have not received ANYTHING original, only reprints from sets.
    • Organized Play Support from Distributors in Europe and other foreign countries is a mixed bag, either all or none.
    • Distributors have told members here that they don't give a rats arse about anything outside the US because nobody is measuring them on that!
    • POP IDs are far from being secure, anyone can print out a fake name and ID onto a POP ID Card from their online profile.
    • 2 on 2 games, Team Play, and Mutant Draft remain unsanctionable despite being mentioned in Rule Meetings and supported as unsanctioned tournaments (even at Conventions)
    • Outside of the Internet, Leagues were not sent any information regarding local Prerelease locations, nor were sent any information regarding City Championships Sign Ups.
    • There is no mention of official rulings on the official site. Only underground efforts made by Team Compendium have continued this process.
    • Some PTOs have broken even on their events, with their financial compensation occasionally making up for lost funds. Some have gone into the red and quit.
    • Friends over in Europe had to spend excessive amount of money to order promos from USA.
    Shirts were given to MAJOR Pokemon Distributors and found it's way on eBay... we know where Pokemon USA's priorities are and they aren’t the judges or TOs. PUI, Distributors, and the community needs to learn that a passionate amateur is worth any number of bored "professionals". We care for this game, more so than any event staff could ever match up to. Many are becoming disgruntled from the lack of consideration PUI is granting the backbone of organized play. If more of us start to drop, nobody can pick up the position easy. There is no set up training program for new judges and tournament organizers and no prior judges/TOs will be present to aid.
    -phil
     
  4. meganium45

    meganium45 Active Member

    Allright Phil, and now for the Counter-points.

    PUI has done their best to bring this game farther along in their few months of running the system then Wizards did in their two years.

    Let's face it. City Championships are designed to be smaller events, with limited staff needed.

    I plan to judge my own events, and run the software.

    I want my players to play, and not be pressured to judge and support, therefore, I am glad they did not tempt judges with the option to get multiple packs for judging, or instead to play the events.

    PUI want to encourage players at these events, not judges. Your TO can judge these events. This builds a player base, which will make States, Gym Challenges, Stadium Challenges and the rest larger and larger events. I am sure there will be staff support for the larger events, including the next pre-release.

    Yes, the TMS software is junk right now. Anyone can see that. There are those of us who survive without relying on uploading our results via the software, but by hand entering all results (which has bugs of its own).

    Those other styles you talk about, 2 on 2 and mutant draft, well I hope Mutant NEVER gets sanctioned. What a joke. That would water down the true limited rankings of players who are playing the "real" draft and sealed events. There are always going to be fun ways to play that are not sanctionable. Either play them, or don't. I ran a non-sanctioned mutant draft using Ruby/Sapphire and Sandstorm, what a joke. Not even a good game to watch.

    Let's look at what PUI has done thus far, and make sure you realize what you are whining about....

    1. Ruby/Sapphire Challenge, limited in areas, but a great first shot. I had a blast in Chicago, even if dok was not allowed in...
    2. Pokemon Rocks America... Too cool, glad I could be a part of it, very limited in venues, but a gem of an event.
    3. Sandstorm Pre-Release - yes I said Pre-Release. Can you tell me the last set Wizards did this with? Wasn't it Gym Challenge???
    4. Dragon Pre-Release - even bigger than Sandstorm, more venues and more players.
    5. Sanctioned events. Yes this is fledgeling, but it is coming along. My serious tourney players were extremely thankful to see this off the ground so quickly, but if it were not for BigPoppaBeatdown, I would probably still not be able to get into the software!
    6. City Championships, with a little effort, any venue could hold them. Yes, the info is a bit tardy, but looking at the program they are getting set to lay out, PUI has a lot on their plate!
    7. A-M Pre-Release - March is closer than you think. The GREAT thing about this is that there will be City Championships both Before and After this event, so decks will change overnight
    8. State Championships - Set for April, and these will Rock! Prize structure will determine a lot, but can you believe it!!!
    9. Badges! Yes Badges!!! Return to the tie-in days. So now we have great promos (hey , I like my jumbo promos) , cool energy AND badges!!! I will be doing my own badge sheets for my league, much like the old WOTC days!!!

    And this is just what we have details for right now.

    Sorry, you don't get a box for judging, let the TO judge, and play in the event and earn your VIP package!

    You have to be kidding yourself if you think that any game, outside of Magic, is coming ANYWHERE CLOSE to this type of support for their game at this time.

    Let's face it, Europe and the rest of the world will most likely always be a problem, for many of the same reasons. PUI is also known as PUSA. Their distributors have to take care of them, and the Europeans have to realize how much international shipping costs when they whine about prize support being different. Heck, when shipping costs 4 times as much as in the US, and just gets more expensive as prizes get heavier, what is PUI supposed to do? They have budgets. Don't you think the trips to worlds that may be awarded in Europe will cost a LOT more than the trips awarded here???

    They get a tough reverse foil, they get the first OP cards, there are a few bones being thrown their way, which make the US players a bit jealous.

    Man, I will take this envio over the WOTC days ANYTIME.

    I have got growing leagues, and interested players, and lots of people being sold on the fact that Pokemon is coming back. If the prizes for States and Gym Challenges are even close to what I think they are going to be....WATCH OUT....the player base will skyrocket again, and I will be there to enjoy the ride.

    Just my counter-rant, showing there is some apprectiation for what is going on.

    Rants like yours are more likely to turn off PUI/PUSA then make them say...oohh, we have to give judges something every time. Ask any magic judge what he gets for Friday Night Magic, nothing, zip nada. What did GLs get in the WOTC days for running events, nothing, zip, nada. Now at least there is some appreciation for a job well done, and I say well done.

    If PUI had to choose 2 things to back off of, I think they chose the right ones. Ladder leagues and Professors are less important than Tourneys, Championships and Pre-Releases!

    Meganium45 - whew what a mouthful
     
  5. GymLeaderPhil

    GymLeaderPhil New Member

    Who's going to run all this fancy stuff you mention Meganium if they all leave? :rolleyes:

    Little efforts over the past few months have done anything to aid judges and tournament organizers. More events and more special player program only cause more work for the staff. PTOs are leaving and that's a big problem. When a PTO leaves, their state suffers. We've just lost Pokemon Premiere Events for two states last year and now State Championships will probably not occur because NOBODY is able to fill the position because there is no incentive for TCG players to learn how to judge/organize. We've lost a potential player base.

    Benefits and Events are all over the place for players BUT the position of TO/Judge is looking to be a position that is needed a great deal in order to support these bi-monthly Premiere Events. I don't care about product, I do care about Organized Play Structure and Support, as of now is looking bleak. If two PTOs could not handle a small Prerelease, how do you suppose one will handle a State Championships or other important events?

    The UK's pound and most other denominations in European currency is, for the most part, higher than the American Dollar. Distributors have (or should) have the responsibility of paying for Organized Play since they are also selling product. I don't see how shipping would be a problem and lead towards Distributors charging TOs for promotional cards. Would you like to be charged for promotional cards? No and it's only because PUI, Distributors, and the community needs to learn that a passionate amateur is worth any number of bored "professionals"! They simply have a lack of trust.

    Friday Night Magic is a League program, not a premiere event, and local programs never had compensation except for extra promotional cards. GLs ran local Leagues. Compensation came in the form of a share of promotional product, as is the standard now.

    My beef is with the structure of the Organized Program, which you misinterpreted with lack of product. Changes need to be made within the infrastructure before Organized Play collapses in another market as it did when we lost two PTOs.
    -Phil
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2004
  6. meganium45

    meganium45 Active Member

    I cannot believe noone would step up to the PTO plate in an area.


    the perks are far too great.

    But hey, FL is a different state.

    I am just VERY happy with the current program.

    Discuss it with you at another time. I guess Florida will need someone to judge worlds, if there are no PTOs left.

    M45 :cool:
     
  7. meganium45

    meganium45 Active Member

    Heck, with their new comp program, it['s close to worth it for ME to come down and run the Florida State Championship.

    I don't think anyone could make this a full time job, but, hey, it's great for those who can put in the time.

    If PTOs are quitting, I would love to really hear why. I would love to expand my territory.

    M45
     
  8. Pokeplayer

    Pokeplayer New Member

    Hello all......

    I for one am happy that PUI has picked up where WOTC left off.........

    Pokemon is being played and being continued despite the issues.....good and bad....

    I have to agree with Jimmer......TO compensation should be kept confidential.......

    Just my thoughts....

    Pokeplayer
     
  9. farbsman

    farbsman New Member

    You got the bugs part right, for some reason 3 of my submissions for City Championships were not received. Hopefully I can still run them. Won't find out until Monday though :(

    Oh and Wizards does prereleases, they also do a bunch of other stuff. They can't help it if the licensing company won't give them permission to do stuff. I mean look at the Magic prereleases every time a new set comes out. Plus Duel Masters...
     
  10. DaytonGymLeader

    DaytonGymLeader New Member

    Would you like the long or the short list?
     
  11. soslowpoke

    soslowpoke New Member

    To be honest...I think when PUI picked up where Nintendo left off, they spilt ALOT.

    1. Ruby/Sapphire Challenge- Thanks for letting us know two weeks before the fact, but hey at least we got more than 12 people
    2. Pokemon Rocks America- I thought it was cute, and I would have begged to gone had I been 9 years old then
    3. Sandstorm Pre-Release- Surprisingly, this ended up not being too big of a flop. I didn't complain, but I think others complained that they were getting cheated out of 40 cents for 6 boosters.
    4. Dragon Pre-Release- Same ordeal. I'm not the PTO so I really have no clue what the logistics are...I just run the thing for him. WOTC stopped prereleases because they could not really coordinate with retailers to have a Prerelease (obviously Nintendo can't either)
    5. Sanctioned events- Okay and how much more spectacular is that than what Wizards has done? It's going to take MONTHS before we can figure out who really is top and who's not. I find it a foolish idea to give invites/byes when some areas still havent figured out how to use their reporting programs yet (but of course, I'll assume it'll be fixed by the time those go out).
    6. City Championships- Hmm...trusting people they don't even know on this one AND giving them comp? UH OH.
    7. Next Prerelease- I don't really have any suggestions for improvements on them
    8. State Championships- How are they going to rock? (!!!) Especially when the majority of my states players are all pretty much going to city championships (with the exception of those down in Collinsville). God forbid if they hold our State Championship downstate, especially for an open tournament.
    9. Badges!- I like the badges, I don't like the lack of badgebooks. I would have turned down a Christmas card (actually I ended up getting 2) for badgebooks or hey at least a nicer recording sheet. I like how the league is pretty much an anything-goes thing, but I think there needs to be at least one sturdy precedent for it to be run, and then opt to differ, no?

    I'll just say...wait until you do a convention- I've done half of one, plenty have done the whole thing. Now THAT'S what OP is
     
  12. meganium45

    meganium45 Active Member

    Be nice to Colinsville 'poke. Doubt we are going to have the State Champ downstate (would hope not), as we are setting to have Missouri State Champ right across the river.

    It will be interesting to see what Dok is able to draw in Chicago, curious as to why pastimes did not do a City event.

    I have no idea why your prereleases did not do well, they have been a blast for everyone else. Cheated out of 40 cents? Then just charge 15 a head like the rest of the country did.

    And, well, the reporting program took me all of 2 hours to figure out, now it works great. Limitations, but, hey, you all keep looking half empty, and I will look half full......

    Talk to you all soon, and hope to see you at Dok's event....that way you can take your vengence out on me at the table!

    M45
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2004
  13. soslowpoke

    soslowpoke New Member

    I didn't knwo you lived in Colinsville, thats weird o_O

    Anyways, I was not being mean to them or anything, just stating that that's the other 'pole' of OP in Illinois. We are doing a City event at Pastimes (March most likely).

    The reality is, most of the country didn't charge $15, if they did there'd be A LOT of locations that did not 'break even'. My reference to the 40 cent thing was that there was a dispute over paying more for the boosters than you would after the release and then I said it works out evenly to 20 bucks @ 3.29 each, then Pokemom added it up and it came to like $19.60 (rolls eyes).

    I've got no vengeance against you, we can agree to disagree (okay yeah that was REALLY lame...my english teacher uses it...that nazi =\)

    Besides, it doesn't matter if its half empty or half full, the fact is that because its half something,- IT ISN'T FULL! I'm more than willing to look at half full but I think after a while this thing could be all the way full, then again there are some nondiscussable reasons to why things are sort of .... 'buggy'
     
  14. Dayton_Pokémom

    Dayton_Pokémom New Member

    I generally leave the long winded post to Steve, DaytonGymLeader, but I feel the need to add my comments.

    The only things they have brought further along are the prereleases; however there were so many major problems you were screaming for your favorite choice of headache relief. These made the events extremely stressful for the TO/Judges and the players.

    City Championships = Gym Challenges, there are just more of them. It’s good that there are more of them; however there is already bevy of issues for some TO’s.

    State Championships = Stadium Challenges, Once again there are more of them; however with the track record thus far you better keep that Advil close.

    M45 you are not alone in pulling double duty at events. There are some Premier TOs out there who bring in people to run these events simply because they are the middle man and only deal with the logistic side of events.

    At this point in the life of Pokémon you should know your player base and who would be judging simply because they want to help others have a tournament and those that are out to just get something. Offering something to the judges should be a thank you for their time and willingness to give up playing. Steve and I are not obsessed with what kind of product we can get for TOing/judging, we are not saying everyone else is, this is just how we feel. We do league, tournaments and major events so that Blondie and our “other kids” have a safe place to play, be competitive, prepare and enjoy major events. I call our player base “our kids” because that is how we feel about them. They all act like siblings and know how far they can push “mom and dad”. We are proud to say that we are not the only ones who feel this way as some of their parents have told us how it is just like a family and how comfortable they are leaving their kids with us. I have digressed off topic, sorry.

    There is also the need to realize that just because someone can TO, that doesn’t mean they can judge. There are people who can play, people who can judge, people who can play and judge, and some who can TO and Judge. Judging isn’t easy. Without the dedicated judges how can there be major events? The answer is there can’t be. PUI needs to recognize the judges - for most, at least us, a simple thank you is all that is needed.

    To call the software junk is a major understatement. Having used this software for a total of 6 major events and countless league tournaments, the name we have for it, well, it can’t go on the boards. Steve and I have found ways to work with its many, many problems. One way is to use lots of colorful words, mind you the words actually do nothing to make the software work but they sure do make you feel better. These problems and entering a tournament by hand have turned so many people away from running sanctioned tournaments, it should be considered a crime. With the talk of how player ranking is/should affect invites and byes, possibly at Nationals and Worlds, this issue is robbing players in a sense.

    Team Muliplayer, as we know it, is game style that should be sanctioned, but it probably will not be. Steve and I have a special investment with team. Team is the true meaning of the image PUI should be projecting, parent and child, siblings, friends, all sitting around playing together and having a good time. I can not count how many family teams I have seen.

    Ruby/Sapphire would have been much better if it had been run differently.

    Pokémon Rocks America… Wizards did a mall tour in 1998 and it was fabulous. They focused on tournaments, also offering league information, teaching people how to play and so many other things. They also covered all age groups by proving something for everyone from, Game Boy game up to TCG expert. I remember Mike Gills being there in the thick of it, checking decks, registering players; basically they were hands on with the public, as they were till the end.

    The Sandstorm Pre-Release was a good starting point, there was and is room for much improvement.

    Dragons Pre-Release - see above

    Sanctioned events - Glad that you found someone to help you through it. We had to, well you read that already.

    City Championships – With more effort from PUI, more people will be willing to run these events. Information has been more then a bit tardy for some TO/Judges.

    A vs. M – Yes, there is the fresh decks point and that is great. However if things don’t change, PUI will be saying goodbye to a lot more TO/judges

    State Championships – See comments for City Championships.

    Badges are a fabulous comeback. Glad they listened about them, wish they would listen more. They needed to include badge books, but hey, at this point it’s better then nothing. The energies have already been done would much rather see completely new promos, art work, attacks, powers, etc.

    There are games out there that have product for judges to the tune of a box or what have you. Towards the end WotC built compensation into the events for the judges. WotC showed gratitude to the judges in one way or another.

    Shipping to Europe being more expensive is a given. However when PUI FedExes stuff over night domestically, multiple times, instead of sending it through the US postal service or any other slower shipper to an event that they have had the address for a month, it’s not that cheap. With 9 premier events under our belt for PUI, I think shipping to the correct address happened once. Personally I believe that the issue with Europe isn’t different prizes, it’s the distributors.

    Sounds like the shoe is on the other foot where the European’s perks are.

    When people say “I thought Pokémon was gone and over with,” or “Pokémon is making a come back?” We tell them it never went away.

    Professors are a key element to Pokémon’s Organized Play Program. Some of our kids are looking forward to becoming Professors.

    I guess this is all that I have to say for now. I hope everyone was able to follow.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2004
  15. Rainbowgym

    Rainbowgym Active Member

    It seems my request on information for (P)TO's landed there were it should. This board works better then sending personal emails (to PUI/Tournament/International)and not getting answers.

    Don't understand me wrong.
    The only thing I want is equalty and it looks like that's still to much to ask.
    It's not only about how much product is available, it's also about the differences in becoming a league.
    Differences in how to become organizer of a City Championship.
    Case is there should be NO DIFFERENCE or if needed small ones, but not the ways it's going now.

    Meganium45, you are showing that you don't read (or understand) the facts we are giving about OP in Europe.
    I can understand that some US (P)TO's don't give a cent about what is happening in Europe, it's far away. I don't blame them for this attitude, but it hurts.
    I also think it's indeed not their problem it's PUI's problem.
    If national distributors (in my eyes are they reps of PUI) are responsible for providing this info in their country, they should be told to "publish/forward" this info. If national distributors claim they don't recieve info, PUI staff should provide that to them. They have contracts and if these kind of things are not in it, you better flush the contract.

    PUI is only underestimating something -- Cheating/Abuse of Economical Power--
    How will they check if their so beloved contracts are really worked out, they can't.
    They are trying to check it, by asking Profs to give feedback about OP.
    Giving this feedback for me ended up in not having an official League (so no promo's) and ignored as (P)TO.
    That's how distributor punish Profs who have any comment on their (non) knowlegde/starting up OP.

    How will TO's overseas know if they are treated equal, unless you can compare.
    I will give an example. Correct me if I understand it wrong.

    City Championships US.

    Announced on the tcg website.
    You can subscribe to do a citychampionship.
    After being approved you get prizes to award the winners and compensation or whatever (doesn't matter at this point what the compensation is)to give to TO and Judges.
    Pricestructure is announced on the website, so players know what to expect.

    Cit Championships NL

    Nothing is announced.
    One person is asked to organize a City, but he thought he could run it in Unlimited.
    that's it.
    No subscription, Nothing on pricestructure, nothing about formats.


    If you are professor, have 50 players and no store in the wide vicinity wants to be responsible (why should they pokemon is out in their eyes), than you don't have a league.
    If you are a skilled TO and Judge you are not asked to run a City Championship. (remember there is no subcription so you have to be asked).
    To make it even better, if you are store owner, you are an approved League, you are experienced TO even than it happens you are not asked to do a City Championship. Not because there are more people in that City to organize the tournament, just because of the mood of the distributor.


    Indeed it looks like the most of the problems are the National Distributors, but if PUI did read all the emails they got from the profs overseas they should be aware of the problems and than PUI is responsible for all these issues and should solve it.


    Overview of things PUI done for us overseas and than discuss who should whine.

    1. Ruby/Sapphire Challenge NOT HERE
    2. Pokemon Rocks America NOT HERE
    3. Sandstorm Pre-Release - NOT HERE
    4. Dragon Pre-Release - 1 large event done by me and without proper price support. (no box for the winner, no 1/2 box for #2 and no change to buy any product to do a side event or give away to a judge)
    5. Sanctioned events - NOT HERE you need TO's to run an event, without TO's no Sanctioned Events.
    6. City Championships NOT HERE YET but who is going to run it, with all skilled profs/TO's not involved.
    7. A-M Pre-Release - NOT HERE YET but who is going to run it, with all skilled profs/TO's not involved.
    8. State Championships - NOT HERE
    9. Badges - Will be the same as the promo's we will not get them if nothing changes.


    It makes me happy that there are some people overseas who do care and try to help us.
    And Meganium 45 you are not among them, you are only reading what you like to read and not understanding what we are saying.
    Shipping Expensive??? That's why we should get less pricesupport, come on.
    Which Trips are you talking about - There will be no trip to give away if there are no players and in the past the Local Distributor claimed that they payed for that trip, so nothing out of the USbudget.
    OP card - What are you talking about, I don't know what you mean.
    TV Reporter Reverse - No doubt it will appear in the next Dragon print in the US but what has it to do with OP, you can play a regular one.
    Perks for TO's - What are you talking about? Are Perks Benefits?

    Enough of this, I need my energy for tomorrow, running a teamplay tournament with 26 teams.
    And I agree with the writer above, Teamplay should be promoted because it's connecting people.
     
  16. ukpokemonpro

    ukpokemonpro New Member

    Well what can we say from the UK ... meganium45

    Why should prize support here be any different? Certainly due to current practice by PUI many retailers grey import and therefore inflate the US sales for which they are the distributor.. Why not take a world view spread the costs and work a global league pricing system and a global support system? It's not rocket science but it does take effort... and effort is lacking so far all over the world except the US.

    This is just laughable and doesn't deserve an answer 4x as much based on what? As has already been shown FedEx'ing all over the US is really cost effective NOT!

    Who has budgets? And just where do you think that money comes from?

    Certainly not PUI, the local distributors are being asked to stump up for League Kits and they are being charged for them... and for what? So far hand me downs of your overprinted US kits. No Local Language nothing different just US hand me downs and the monies charged all go back to pay for your support!

    Look at it from our point of view if PUI kicks us in the teeth and tells us we are second class and not their responsiblity then I guess we are not gonna lie down and wait for the next kicking.

    And we are now too far down the road from WotC to blame anyone other than PUI for all the NON-FUNCTIONING stuff they are churning out.

    We have Software that doesn't work, a website that is on a par with the tournament reporting software ;), a league listing that won't show you any leagues outside the US, a ranking system that is RANK AMATEUR and all this from a company that want to lecture us on being PROFESSIONAL!

    Maybe they ought to try returning calls when they promised they would, maybe they ought to deliver a working website and the professor programme. Maybe they could consider letting us Non-US TOs in on the PTO network. Maybe they could actually start delivering and stop SPINNING.

    City Championships and National Qualifiers outside the US ... what a joke they can't even promise us parity on league materials .. yet they will claim there is a worldwide programme of support for the game.

    "We are committed to having a full slate of organized play programs internationally similar to that of North America. These programs will be implemented by local distributors but will be part of our integrated worldwide Organized Play system.

    Similar seems to mean different to this "BUNCH OF PROFESSIONALS"

    and Integrated seems to mean Not Integrated at all ....

    Now I speak here for all outside the US the UK is somewhat luckier so far than most but that is because we are used to the fight for support, we are used to doing it ourselves but don't kid yourselves that PUI has the least interest in anything outside the US, if they did maybe Jarred would have contacted his TO's and Judges or even returned calls instead of just batting it all back to the distributors.

    And maybe we would have seen some advertising to grow the game? Maybe we would be able to relax and assume pre-release materials will arrive on time rather than fighting to make sure they do.

    And maybe we could plan events and advertising like PROFESSIONALS but somehow the amatuers who keep asking for it keep getting fobbed off by the professionals.... without us talented amatuers there is no game at all outside the US... inside the US that seems the same too?

    PUI take note....
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2004
  17. NoPoke

    NoPoke New Member

    Shipping doesn't cost 4x more to the UK. If you leave it to the last minute then yes shipping is expensive but that goes for within the USA too.

    From the outside it seems that PUI have yet to address the issue of how they expect casual potential customers outside the USA to realise that there is activity outside the USA. Now before I get shot banned hung drawn and quartered bear in mind that this is what it looks like from the ground. PUI may be doing tons of stuff behind the scenes. Unfortuanately the casual observer sees none of that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2004
  18. bulbasnore

    bulbasnore Administrator Staff Member Trader Feedback Mod

    Hey Dayton_Pokémom, don't feel like I'm picking on you. I'm just using your post for structure. Since this thread isn't dropping, _I_ feel the need to counterpoint some of the things many have said.

    I don't feel a longing for the last couple years of the WOTC tenure. I have great appreciation for the MTs but it wasn't a golden age or very good premier OP scene or even a good time for general support _I_ saw for the _game_ from WoTC.

    prereleases
    The only things they have brought further along are the prereleases

    Sorry you had probs. The ones I've been to were great, tho not problem free. Did WOTC have any other PKMN prereleases than Gym? Certainly none since. We see the PR coming for the next set already...from PUI.

    Advantage PUI PR.



    city championships
    City Championships = Gym Challenges, there are just more of them.

    Um, actually the GC were a pillar in the phase of exclusion on 15+. WOTC did not bother to require side events either the first or second set of GC. One could say this was deliberate owing to the fear/loathing of that group by the higher ups. Let's not go there, but it was not only bad business but a slap. Major monkey wrench for me & my family and many players I knew.

    GC = Restricted, lame for no side events for the excluded folks.
    CC = Widespread, open, compensation for organizing well.

    No comparison, in my view the CC will be run by people who care and there will be more more more. Oh, and I do remember LOTS of headaches at those GC -- at least to hear people on the boards talk about cramped, poorly prepared spaces, rules-inept TOs, etc. IF a CC is equivalent to GC, then another step up is that you DONT have to be a PTO or a business to be approved organize one. None of the lower SoCal CC on the board so far is run by a PTO or a business. I guarantee the players at those events will get a premier experience, though.

    Advantage CC.



    state championships
    State Championships = Stadium Challenges, Once again there are more of them.

    More is significantly better. The SC were SHRIVELLED versions of the STS. 15+ excluded again, tho there were side events, and the professor challenge was bossa-nova (new event format training by DMTM + tourney with many 15+ buddies that I hadn't seen at a premiere event in a year and many new faces I'd never met)! Invites (and seemingly trips for winners of all ages) to nationals are provided with the State Championships.

    Advantage State Championships.



    There is also the need to realize that just because someone can TO, that doesn’t mean they can judge. There are people who can play, people who can judge, people who can play and judge, and some who can TO and Judge. Judging isn’t easy. Without the dedicated judges how can there be major events?


    Well said. Right you are. Still, I recall all the hassles people complained about with the 'magic oriented pkmn ignorant' judges supplied by WoTC at big events -- oh and I do think those judges were compen$ated. Being under the DCI was an enormous advantage, but not without some significant drawbacks, since MTG is the dominant component of that system.

    We do have a really fine PTO for our area, though, who not only brings a staff with heart but uses our local profs as judges. I suspect he takes care of the judges, though I truly only guess.

    Nevertheless, judge compensation is not the key to training & growing & retaining judges, but the professor program.




    PUI needs to recognize the judges - for most, at least us, a simple thank you is all that is needed.

    To Dayton Pokemom I would say, 'How would you like to be thanked?'
    To others I would say, 'If your TO is not taking care of you, don't judge for him/her.'

    We ALL await the ramping of PUI's professor program, me (& my son) included. I agree we are coasting on momentum in that regard. However, considering the applied resources, what would you rather have at this point, a better judging/professor program or City Championships? Would we all like PUI to put more resources into the OP program? Sure! But given the resources they have applied, is this the wrong place to put them?



    To call the software junk is a major understatement.

    I'm extremely disappointed in the SW. It doesn't have a complete feature set and can't reliably operate the features it does have. It is windows only. My view is this should have been written in Java by a competent programmer, but there are many ways to program well. We need to stow bug reports until it is fixed or replaced. Props to PUI for listening to alternatives, see GreatFox' thread.


    Team Muliplayer, as we know it, is game style that should be sanctioned

    Have to agree with your assessment of the family/group image and what it does for the product & the game. We still play TMP and will continue to do so even if unsanctioned (see PPCLA in my sig). We need a thread on how to organize this. I'll look for it.



    Pokémon Rocks America… Wizards did a mall tour in 1998 and it was fabulous.

    98? Missed that. And then...? I went to several for GB and they were cool, too.



    Badges are a fabulous comeback. Glad they listened about them, wish they would listen more.

    My contention is the ear is not proven to be too small, at this point it is the hand that needs strengthening. Time has shown some improvements & time will show further improvement. More players could change the amount of resources applied and accellerate the pace of improvement.



    There are games out there that have product for judges to the tune of a box or what have you.

    For what type event? I can see that coming at an StChampionship or head judge at a large PR or other rented-venue event, but really what is the size of event in these other 'games' where the judge_s_ (plural) get a box?


    Towards the end WotC built compensation into the events for the judges.

    Really? I was MP and NEVER got compensated for WoTC for judging or organizing tourneys. Do you mean the Prof/MProf program? I got a membership card and some cred (both treasured).

    If there was compensation for _judges_ from _WoTC_ it had to be at the large paid-venue events (SC/up). DONT post here any compensation, its unprofessional per the thread starter, but folks can PM me what you got from WoTC for _judging_, but be sure to include the size of the event, whether WoTC or some premier TO rented the venue and your entire role. Remember, this discussion is about CC size events. Until I get these PMs, I'm really stumped about this compensation that WoTC was providing to _judges_ in CC sized events. They certainly didn't provide any for judging in local tourneys. Anyway, seems like PUI is providing 'volunteer support stuff' and that I think would include CC judges.



    WotC showed gratitude to the judges in one way or another.

    Oh, is that different than compensation? Like the prof program points for judging? Sure that was cool! :D Other than that and a kind word when face to face, I can't remember anything until the FAT farewell. The delegate program was a different story, but it wasn't for judging.



    Sounds like the shoe is on the other foot where the European’s perks are.

    These guys are sinking/swimming at the whim of the distributor and are having to form 'lifeguard societies' in order to rescue the game. They are in a horrible situation.



    In summary:
    • There are important issues should be addressed; resources are small and the issues must be prioritized until more resources are applied.
    • I don't see 'judge compensation from the licensor' as an important issue or historically part of the PKMN OP except in professionally run events (e.g. STSQ/STS).
    • Judges should negotiate whatever type of compensation with their TO.
    • The current prospect of premiere OP looks better to me than it has since the last WCSTS 2001.
     
  19. GymLeaderPhil

    GymLeaderPhil New Member

    Bulbasnore... have you judged or been a tournament organizer in the last few months? Have you had to deal with the problems that associate with any sanctioned tournament, let alone a premiere event? Yes, we know that Pokemon Organized Play is proposing and promising all these great bi-monthly premiere events, we know that 15+ players are back, blah, blah, blah... but put yourself in a TO's position. Running a large scale event every other month WITHOUT support. The fact is that more and more players are flocking into local events, but there is a stedy decrease of staff to organize these events. Why? Because POP support for TOs and judges has not improved since October. I cant say this any other way, I've repeated it time and time again, little has been done to improve support.

    Now POP is giving the power of byes to nearly a 100 City Championship locations. Giving the power of a bye to a tournament organizer who could have never sanctioned an event before in his or her life. Giving the responsability of an advertised event to a new person. This new tournament organizer will have to go through the same conflicts as premiere tournament organizers did in the last few months. All of those locations, majority of them resulting in success, but there will be plenty that run into trouble. Software dropping players. Prize support arriving days after the event. Lack of instructions.
    -Phil
     
  20. Adv1sor

    Adv1sor New Member

    I myself have been tempted to organize a tournament, but the fact is I like to play too much right now. Maybe after I get my but kicked by a few more kids... I have judged a tournament or two back in the day when Haymakers ruled.

    I know a couple of TOs, not that well, but I think that I can say that the reason they do it, (organize tournaments that is), is for the love of the game, not for the support stuff from POP. I knew one TO who gave away any support stuff he got as extra prizes.

    From my own point of view, and from watching the City Championship locations grow, we are seeing more and more TOs stepping up to support the game.

    POP could do some things better. Who among us can't say that about oursevles? But overall I think that they are doing a great job towards moving Pokemon TCG back to the top of the card game heap and making it a fun game for every age group.
     

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