Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Double sleeving cards: Acceptable or not?

Pope

New Member
Hi fellow Professors,

Recently I had a discussion with a fellow local Professor about the rise of double sleeving cards.

Admittedly, the trend has grown in our Pokémon group locally after players noticed that all my decks are double sleeved. This is a trait I picked up in my Magic: The Gathering days, where a competitive deck for standard can run into the $100's.

We talked about the legality of double sleeving cards at major tournaments and when we consulted the rules, we could not see if it was okay or not.

Full disclosure, I took the stance of it is perfectly fine, as long as all the sleeves are identical and it otherwise conforms with the rules on the use of sleeves.

I have been using the KMC Full Sized "Perfect Size" Sleeves. These sleeves are designed to allow are card to be sleeved and then have that card put into another sleeve with the bare minimum of room between the two different sleeves. The sleeves can be seen here: KMC Sleeves.

These sleeves fit snug in any of the major sleeves on the market, I currently have my decks double sleeved in Ultra Pro sleeves, and aside from physically pulling them out, they have not and do not slide out. The cards are first fitted into the "Perfect Size" sleeves so that the bottom of the sleeve is at the top of the card (basically you sleeve the cards upside down) and then the sleeved card is inserted into the outer sleeve right-way up. The result is that the card can not slip out of either sleeve and when done correctly, the entire deck is uniform and there is no real distinction between the cards.

My fellow Professor was against the idea, but as there was no official ruling that we could see, conceded that at the end of the day it was down to the Head Judges discretion as to whether or not a player would be allowed to use double sleeved cards.

So my question to you is: Would playing with a deck, where all 60 cards are double sleeved in an identical fashion, be acceptable for a major tournament? As I am going to be heading to the Australian Nationals this year to play, I'd just like to see if I should desleeve my deck or if I should be fine.

Regards,

Pope.
 
Hi fellow Professors,

Recently I had a discussion with a fellow local Professor about the rise of double sleeving cards.

Admittedly, the trend has grown in our Pokémon group locally after players noticed that all my decks are double sleeved. This is a trait I picked up in my Magic: The Gathering days, where a competitive deck for standard can run into the $100's.

We talked about the legality of double sleeving cards at major tournaments and when we consulted the rules, we could not see if it was okay or not.

Full disclosure, I took the stance of it is perfectly fine, as long as all the sleeves are identical and it otherwise conforms with the rules on the use of sleeves.

I have been using the KMC Full Sized "Perfect Size" Sleeves. These sleeves are designed to allow are card to be sleeved and then have that card put into another sleeve with the bare minimum of room between the two different sleeves. The sleeves can be seen here: KMC Sleeves.

These sleeves fit snug in any of the major sleeves on the market, I currently have my decks double sleeved in Ultra Pro sleeves, and aside from physically pulling them out, they have not and do not slide out. The cards are first fitted into the "Perfect Size" sleeves so that the bottom of the sleeve is at the top of the card (basically you sleeve the cards upside down) and then the sleeved card is inserted into the outer sleeve right-way up. The result is that the card can not slip out of either sleeve and when done correctly, the entire deck is uniform and there is no real distinction between the cards.

My fellow Professor was against the idea, but as there was no official ruling that we could see, conceded that at the end of the day it was down to the Head Judges discretion as to whether or not a player would be allowed to use double sleeved cards.

So my question to you is: Would playing with a deck, where all 60 cards are double sleeved in an identical fashion, be acceptable for a major tournament? As I am going to be heading to the Australian Nationals this year to play, I'd just like to see if I should desleeve my deck or if I should be fine.

Regards,

Pope.

Until it is specifically allowed or disallowed by Tournament Rules, Double Sleeving is up to the sole discretion of the Head Judge.

As Head Judge, I allow double sleeving provided that both sets of sleeves meet the criteria of legal sleeves. Those KMC sleeves have that little frilly patten on them that make them illegal sleeves per the rules, so I can not allow those to be used

These are what I use for double sleeving my decks- http://www.ultrapro.com/product_info.php?products_id=1865
 
The KMC sleeves with the pattern aren't what I am using. I am using the KMC "Perfect Size" sleeves - They are the 3rd pack down in the original link I posted. They are designed to allow a card in the "Perfect Size" sleeve to fit snug in a standard sized sleeve.

They fit into the any of the standard sized Ultra Pro sleeves, which are the sleeves I am currently using.

Thanks for the info Lolz, you basically confirmed what I already suspected.

Cheers,

Pope.
 
Yes, as long as the deck meets tournament requirements, I'm fine with double sleeving myself.

Tournament requirements mean that the sleeves must be either mono-colored, clear, or Pokemon artwork. In this case, the combination of the two sleeves and what can be seen from the "outside" is what matters.
It also means that one card is not distinguishable from another card from the back. In this case, the outside sleeve must be snug to the inside sleeves and there should not be any buckling of some sleeves that make them identifiable.
The front of the cards cannot be obscured with patterns or obtrusive markings.
The little holo circle found on Ultra Pro sleeves is fine as it does not obscure game information.
 
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Cheers PokePop.

I thought it would be okay, but I wanted to get the opinion of other Judges who have judged the higher level events.
 
I generally allow double sleeves as well.

Another thing you have to watch out for is "penny sleeves" that are not always the same length. If occasionally I will find a player using penny sleeves as the outer sleeves, and they end up in a marked card situation because of this.
 
Ill jump on the bandwagon and I would allow them for the exact same reasons. As long as the deck is uniform, and there is not a marked card situation, then I am fine with it.

Floor Judge, US Nationals
 
I generally allow double sleeves as well.

Another thing you have to watch out for is "penny sleeves" that are not always the same length. If occasionally I will find a player using penny sleeves as the outer sleeves, and they end up in a marked card situation because of this.

Right. Penny Sleeves don't meet the requirements. Do it right, or don't do it.
 
The question should be framed differently, if we're asking are double sleeves legal.

The tests are:
  1. Is the sleeve non-reflective with clear, solid or Pokémon art? Yes? Proceed to #2.
  2. Are the sleeved cards marked in any way? No? Play on.


To be sure the HJ is the final arbiter, but if the starting premise is 'double sleeving is wrong' in and of itself, that is hard to justify, without reference to the two test above.


Frilly border sleeves, like the silver dot ultra pros are OK to play in my book as long as the border is on the card face and doesn't obscure the card text.
 
To be sure the HJ is the final arbiter, but if the starting premise is 'double sleeving is wrong' in and of itself, that is hard to justify, without reference to the two test above.

I think that is the crux of the question. There are a fair number of judges that believe this is banned even though no such rule exists. Or perhaps because no explicit rule exists (they are thinking of it like double carding or some other sort of mark/cheat, when it's not). I feel like something should be added to the floor rules next season to settle it once and for all.

FWIW I am in agreement with 'Pop and 'snore here -- if the card backs are otherwise compliant and no marked card situation has been created, then they should be fine. This is how I've trained all the judges in my area to deal with it.

US Nationals Judge / Regionals Judge / States Head Judge
 
Or perhaps because no explicit rule exists (they are thinking of it like double carding or some other sort of mark/cheat, when it's not). I feel like something should be added to the floor rules next season to settle it once and for all.
Well, that's kind of what we're hoping to accomplish with a forum like this.
I see this as more of a judge training issue, where judges "know" rules that don't exist and so are not applying the actual rules correctly.
 
This is the line from the Tournament rules document that causes the issue with double sleeving.

 Each card sleeve contains only one card.

With double sleeving one of the sleeves contains both a card and a sleeve. So the outer sleeve does contain one card but not only one card.

FWIW Double sleeving doesn't bother me so I would ignore the "only". But "only" is still there in the document :(

--
UK Nationals HJ in years gone bye.
 
In Yugioh, they dont allow double sleeving of decks. I'm not sure why but its a instant game loss if you do, but then again, what isn't a instant game loss in yugioh. However, with my Pokemon deck, the perfect fit sleeves made my deck about 20% larger with just air. It made the deck hard to put into my standard deck box. I even damage a card by bending it because the card stuck out of the bottom without my knowing and was bent by the other cards pressing on it. There were times where my opponent could not shuffle my deck because the cards would slide out of their hands. I even had some issues with it.

I think the main thing would be to research what sleeve combinations are compatible. With perfect fit sleeves, you would need a sleeve that are large than ultra pro so the card and sleeve sits right.
 
This is the line from the Tournament rules document that causes the issue with double sleeving.

 Each card sleeve contains only one card.

With double sleeving one of the sleeves contains both a card and a sleeve. So the outer sleeve does contain one card but not only one card.

FWIW Double sleeving doesn't bother me so I would ignore the "only". But "only" is still there in the document :(

--
UK Nationals HJ in years gone bye.

That can be read as "[only one] card", rather than "only [one card]" - i.e. you can have more than the one card in the sleeve, but no more cards than the one card. That's how I read it, anyway.
 
Until it is specifically allowed or disallowed by Tournament Rules, Double Sleeving is up to the sole discretion of the Head Judge.

Maybe I'm crazy but, by virtue of there not being a rule against it, doesn't that NOT leave it up to the Head Judge? I might need to scan throught the rules docs again, but is there a "discretion of head judge" clause anywhere in there?

If so, that is super ambiguous...

- - - Updated - - -

Did a quick check of the General Event Rules and the TCG Rules and Formats docs and didn't see a discretion clause, but I did see this:

The Head Judge is chosen by the Tournament Organizer prior to the tournament
and is ultimately responsible for making sure that all participants abide by the rules set forth in
this document

For the record, I don't think there is anything wrong with judges using common sense. But, judges are bound by the same rules as the players. Players aren't allowed to make up rules at their convenience, even implying that judges can seems to be a complete misunderstanding of the judge role.
 
Maybe I'm crazy but, by virtue of there not being a rule against it, doesn't that NOT leave it up to the Head Judge? I might need to scan throught the rules docs again, but is there a "discretion of head judge" clause anywhere in there?

If so, that is super ambiguous...

There is no rule in the floor rules that state ________. (You fill in blank)
Does that mean the head judge has no say in the part of the ______?

Also, you left out the first sentence in the HJ responsibility.
The Head Judge serves as the final arbiter of all rulings and rules interpretations for a particular tournament.

So basically the HJ can issue a ruling about something not expressly forbidden/acceptable
 
Rather than saying that the HJ is making up a rule, I would say that he is interpreting the "only one card" clause to mean nothing else can be inside of a sleeve than just one card, not even another sleeve.

Even if the HJ allows double sleeving, they get to determine if that double sleeving creates a marked card situation.

There are many reasons why a HJ can disallow this practice without having to "make up rules".

And I say this as a HJ that would allow proper double sleeving.
 
"Each card sleeve contains only one card."

When asked if a slip of paper can be included in a sleeve with a Pokemon Catcher that has the revised text, I point to this rule and say that a sleeve can contain only one card. A sleeve should not contain 1 slip of paper and 1 card.

In the same way, a sleeve should not contain 1 sleeve and 1 card.

VA Winter Regionals 2014, Masters division floor judge.
 
Until it is specifically allowed or disallowed by Tournament Rules, Double Sleeving is up to the sole discretion of the Head Judge.

As Head Judge, I allow double sleeving provided that both sets of sleeves meet the criteria of legal sleeves. Those KMC sleeves have that little frilly patten on them that make them illegal sleeves per the rules, so I can not allow those to be used

These are what I use for double sleeving my decks- http://www.ultrapro.com/product_info.php?products_id=1865

This past weekend I was Head Judge of a League Challenge I allowed double sleeves, but did not allow the sleeves with a frilly pattern border on them. Some players did not like my ruling.

I like double sleeves, I use double sleeves myself, but I would be perfectly content if P!P gave a better definition on what is and isn't allowed regarding Double Sleeves so Head Judges are not put in a subjective situation. If P!P comes out and says that Double Sleeves are not allowed at Tournaments, I would be ok with this.

Really any ruling that could be made by the higher ups that helps make things more uniform and consistent from event to event and not Head Judges subjective decision... would be greatly appreciated.
 
Rules are rules. But what is to be done when there is no rule saying yes or no? Just because there is no straight rule saying no, does not mean it is a yes you can. If you have to have your sleeves protected by double sleeving then don’t use those sleeves when a HJ says no. it should not be argued that "I (player) have to have double sleeves because I paid lots of money for my sleeves." well buy cheaper sleeves. I do not pay lots of money for sleeves why, because I am not forced to buy them. I also did not force anyone to pay money for the sleeves.

It is a kids game they have small hands and if I feel the deck is too big for a small kid to shuffle I will not allow double sleeves. And if in the juniors the deck is to big then it’s not ok in any division. I don’t understand why anyone would argue something that is not a right? It is not your right to have double sleeves. Get off your high horse and look at it from the big picture that kids can’t shuffle the big deck that is double sleeved and stop trying to push the issue saying it’s your right to have double sleeves when it is not a right. Stick with what the HJ says.

So bottom line is I don’t write well so sorry.

Since it’s not easy for most kids to shuffle double sleeves I would not allow it. On a cheating point of view if someone stacks the deck and does not want the opponent to shuffle, double sleeves can get them to not shuffle as much.
 
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