Elm = Staple?

Discussion in 'Cards: Strategy and Rulings Discussion' started by MonkeyMan, Aug 6, 2003.

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  1. Dro~

    Dro~ New Member

    [Edit: actually, instead of taking a good discussion off-topic, why don't you start your own topic discussing the use of Copycat in Unlimited decks? :thumb:

    Thanks for your cooperation...:) ]

    'mom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 7, 2003
  2. ukpokemonpro

    ukpokemonpro New Member

    A staple is a card that goes in every deck. Yugioh players live by that word

    Gotta disagree with the use of the word Staple there Martin.. Baboon gets a little closer with

    Elm is not a staple. A staple is something like Switch or Double Gust, as almost every competitive deck

    By that definition I gotta say Elm is a Staple almost every deck packs some elm in there 2 to 4 with other cards for straight drawing. For me Elm is a recursion card allowing me to put cards I don't need now back into the deck and draw a new selection.

    Yes it randomisers but it is a solid 7 cards with one draw back.. Copy Cat is good but situational... sometime you need a good draw and they only got 3 or 4 cards and you really wish you had an elm.

    Harper Collins define Staple as

    a main constituent; integral part

    By that definition I would have to agree with MonkeyMan ELM is a staple card, a main constituent, integral part.. of most decks competative and non competative.

    To be a staple it doesn't have to be in every deck and I would rather use MtG analogies than look at it it's rip off sibling YGO for definitions of staple cards.

    in MtG there have been many Staple cards.. Red decks had Lightening Bolt, Ball Lightening and Goblins of many shades.. all staples in that colours decks.

    Blue went with Counterspell and the control cards..

    Black had Necropotence and Dark Ritual ... Dark Ritual especially..

    White had Disenchant and Crusade

    Green had Giant Growth, elves and Big Stompy Creatures..

    but as staple MtG cards they were not played in every deck indeed Elm is more a staple than any of the above... Just type Magic the Gathering and Staple Cards into Google and look at the number of cards that are mentioned and how they don't fit every deck but are still staples of the game

    GO ELM :thumb:
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2003
  3. Marril

    Marril New Member

    Gonna have to at least fix this guy's analogies here, he left out the true staple cards...
    Red: Mogg Fanatic, Jackal Pup, Lightning Bolt, Gorilla Shaman, Fire/Ice

    Blue: Mana Drain, Force of Will, Morphling, Psychatog (Brian Weissman's "The Deck" and the Worlds-willing "Hulk Smash" don't actually use Counterspell)

    Black: Dark Ritual, Phyrexian Negator, Hypnotic Specter, Necropotence

    White: Disenchant, Savannah Lions, Swords to Plowshares

    Green: Rogue Elephant, Land Grant, Giant Growth

    Artifact: The Moxen, Black Lotus, Black Vise, Lotus Petal
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2003
  4. ukpokemonpro

    ukpokemonpro New Member

    Ah now Marill we see the true meaning of staple in a MtG sense.. a lot depends on when you started and what decks you play..

    Now lets see I remember Ernham and Burn'em the first time round with Orkish Lumberjacks and White Weenie with Crusade, Armageddon, Wrath of God and Jihad

    Depends on your era too what staples you know.....
     
  5. MonkeyMan

    MonkeyMan New Member

    Old school magic analogies here ;\ Alot of it is true. Except Tog isnt needed in blue and all the cards in black went to different decks except dark ritual which was just broken

    but on subject to baboon Card advantage is getting more cards then you played for example playing a elm with a 4 card hand including the elm gets you 3 CA. Bill Loses 1 but Draws 2 so you get 1 CA. Now what your talking about making a advantage of the cards abilitys is different. Like how a Juggler helps feral etc.
     
  6. Marril

    Marril New Member

    Basically, it works like this:

    Winning > Tempo > Card Advantage

    Basically, while card advantage is very, very important, tempo is more important because it determines the rate that your deck can accumulate its threats. More threats on an increasing level of power = better tempo. Winning, of course, tops it all. "Discard your hand, draw all but one prize card" would be insanely good, even though it's a huge disruption to your tempo and larger card disadvantage, you'd be 5/6 of the way to winning. Likewise, "discard a card from your hand to put a second Basic into play this turn" would drastically increase your tempo, but it'd be card disadvantage. However, it's overall a really powerful effect, so it makes up for the card disadvantage.

    Just some ramblings. I really should write articles, they'd be at least more coherent. :p
     
  7. BPM

    BPM New Member

    Elm is simply amazing. It's anti-decking, it gives you SEVEN cards, which nothing else in the game will CONSISTANTLY give you, and you can still play cards afterwards.
    It is, and it isn't. Depends on your current hand size. If you had no other cards in your hand, then you'd be speeding up the decking process. But if you had, say, 10 cards in your hand, you'd beef up your deck a bit.

    To be honest, right now, I say the best draw card isn't a Trainer, but a Pokémon.

    Linoone.

    Seek Out needs only one Colorless Energy. And it'll allow you to search your deck for two cards. ANY two cards! Not limited to Basic Energy or Basic Pokémon or... whatever. ANY two cards. And then you put them into your hand. It's like using two Computer Searches without discarding anything! Of course, being an attack, it ends your turn. But, I can live with that.

    Back on topic...
    Is Elm a staple? You'll get your answer by answering my question:
    Does every deck in the world have multiple copies in it?
    Probably not. But then you might claim those are only decks from little children or inexperienced players. And then you might say they don't count. Feh.

    Sure, I use a couple of Elms. Two in one deck, and three in the other. To me, four is overkill. I just don't like how it won't allow you to play additional Trainers afterwards. Feh.
     
  8. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    Linoon is good, but it's a 4 card combo that uses up your attack for that turn, is 'Rogue bait, and takes up about 7 card slots in your deck.
    Good, but I'm waiting to see how effective it is in actual play.
     
  9. Otaku

    Otaku Active Member

    Don't forget though: Tyrogue is unlikley to matter as much, unless they re-release him. I don't know anyone who actually exects Nintendo to keep any of the Neo sets: most hope for the WotC E-card sets and maybe LC. If the new format is Nintendo only, then for a bit at least, Lioone (and the Rare Delcatty) are pretty useful: almost staples. If its LC or later, they can still be pretty good: send out Lioone, attack two or three turns, and yeah, they;ll KO it and you'll lose a prize, but you'll probably be set up 100%.
     
  10. dkates

    dkates New Member

    Personally, I have never played Elm. Of course, I only play non-DCI Unlimited. That said, the only reason I never liked Elm is because you cannot play ANY Trainers afterward, whatsoever. When I play Draw cards, I'm actually often looking for a Trainer. Search cards, it's usually a Special Energy or a Pokemon, but sometimes it's a Trainer -- I sometimes Computer Search for an Oak. Supporters are one thing -- true, you can't play any more Supporters afterwards, but if you need two Trainers that powerful, you're probably going to lose anyway. But no Trainers at all? In a game where Trainers often make up half of a person's deck, that hits a little too hard for me. With my luck, I would probably end up at least once with a hand that had nothing but Trainers.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2003
  11. MonkeyMan

    MonkeyMan New Member

    dkates this is just MF, not unlimited where oak and cpu are legal.

    Marill I was just saying what card advantage was not the order of its importance even though I do have to agree with you on the order. Most of it is direct from mtg so Ive heard it before ;\
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2003
  12. Marril

    Marril New Member

    Makes sense that most of that was from M:TG, considering I stole the concepts and shoved the proverbial square peg into the proverbial round hole to get it to fit into Pokémon.

    Just kidding about getting it to fit Pokémon, of course. Such concepts are universal to TCGs. There isn't a TCG out there where card advantage is a bad thing (yes, M:TG has The Rack and such, but generally...).
     
  13. HYPER EEVEE

    HYPER EEVEE Iron Chef - Master Emeritus

    There is no doubt about that
     
  14. Ez1

    Ez1 New Member

    The correct answer to almost any pokemon
    strategy question is...."It depends".....

    Is Elm better than copycat??? It depends on the
    situation and/or deck.

    You have one pokemon with 10 hp left and your
    opponent has 1 card in his hand. Would you rather
    have an elm or copycat????

    Say the same situation exists but he has twelve cards....which would you want???

    Four elm and 4 copycat makes for a huge drawing
    combo. Is it the best combo??? Again it depends.

    It depends on the deck, the players game style
    and situation.

    Many a time I've been saved by being able to play
    a copycat, elm, cleffa(eek)...combo.....Is it the
    best combo???...well it depends.....

    You can debate forever....but the correct answer
    will almost always be....."It depends"....
     
  15. Otaku

    Otaku Active Member

    Perhpas you should read the questions more carefully? THe question is not which one is more usehul, Elm or [insert card here], but rather should Elm be classified as a staple. This puts Elm in a very, very spcific light: it basically asks "Should Elm be used in virtually every deck?" This is a basic yes or no answer. Either Elm helps nearly all (Modified) decks (remember this debate was geared towards Neon/Eon Modified-this is why one should not ressurect a post that has been dead for almost two months), or it doesn't. In certain scenarios, nearly any card can be better than another. That is not what is being debated. Those who favor Elm in nearly every deck like it becuase its a shuffle and draw for 7 and can be used after another Supporter (particularly a Desert Shaman :p ). Those who don't hate getting "dead" hands, since all trainers are automatically dead for a turn after an Elm, and likely most energy and Pokemon will be too unless you use it at the beginning of your turn. So really everyone should be a clear "yes" or "no" on this.
     
  16. dkates

    dkates New Member

    I think Elm is becoming a staple, at least for E-on. I will not speak for other Modifieds. Since literally all the other card-drawing cards in the format (I do not include deck search in this category) are Supporters, Elm is the only card available which can be used to draw cards after a Supporter is used. With the lower emphasis on Trainers, even as compared to Neon (card ratios are still about 18-24-18, but the Trainers themselves are taking a less dominant role), as well as the slightly slower pace, the drawback of not being able to play Trainer cards after an Elm is significantly less painful than in past formats. With the small number of different cards that can draw cards or change your hand, almost every card that can do so is appreciated.
    I don't know whether Unlimited is OT or not, but I will mention it anyway, at least as a comparison. In Unlimited, I never played Elm. Since, in most Unlimited decks, your deck is at least 46 2/3% Trainers (that's 28/60, in case you're wondering), quite often 50% or more, and all of these Trainers can be exceedingly important (unless Slowking's out, Trainers rarely stay in the hand very long, in one way or another), in addition to the extremely fast pace, one can rarely afford to have to wait a turn to play a Trainer. With the high number of powerful, unrestricted Trainers in Unlimited, people can, will, and usually do play as many useful cards as they can in a single turn. Since Elm significantly lowers your options in this matter, I and many other players tend toward cards like Copycat and Oak for card drawing, when it comes to Unlimited.
     
  17. Prime

    Prime Content Developer<br>Blog Admin<br>Contest Host

    Simply put - no
     
  18. Ez1

    Ez1 New Member

    The original statements...there weren't really any questions were two. 1. "Elm is a staple in every deck"....and 2. "Elm is the best drawing card".....

    My response stands at "It depends"....it's the best drawing card in some
    situations......and the best drawing card in most modified decks(certainly the most used)...but again "it depends" on the situation......
     
  19. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    Well, Elm is NOT a staple any more, at least for the new Nintendo Modified format (E-on, no Best Promos).
     
  20. Otaku

    Otaku Active Member

    True... but the thread name is "Elm=Staple?" ;) However, you are most definitely correct that it does indeed depend on the situation, as that is how the first post does indeed read.
     

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