ex WC worlds report

Discussion in 'World Championships' started by Blueblue, Aug 19, 2008.

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  1. Blueblue

    Blueblue New Member

    Hello!

    As some did know, i took kinda long break off pokemon this year. However, after finishing nats with regular stuff, we had some time to make up a nice metagame counter-list, that actually was fairly good. Unfortunately, our time was limited and the first goal, to make a deck that beats GG, became also the last goal. As pretty obviously can be seen from the list, the main purpose was to complitely lock the opponent, while still being able to setup fairly well yourself. Claydol is rather an emerengy setupper, mainly a wager counter though while format was so flip based this year, even if the list was perfect(which it wasn´t unfortunately), nothing could surely really counter everything.

    I have to say though, even as i faced some unlucky things(like everyone most likely), first loss going down to a flip, second to ruling i had never heard about, last to baltoy being prized&top cut being only 3 spots away, i can´t really complain. Last year after all that playtesting i felt like i´m flowing through the games, this year i don´t even want to count the missplays i did. Also as mentioned, the lists purpose unfortunately remained in defeating just GG, even the trode tech came up in the last evening, when we noticed that empo matchup ain´t too good.


    3*Jirachi ex
    3*Ralts SW
    3*Kirlia DF
    3*Gallade
    3*Absol
    1*Voltorb
    1*Electrode
    1*Baltoy
    1*Claydol
    1*Absol ex
    1*Rayquaza ex

    6*Psychic
    4*Electric
    2*Multi
    1*Fighting
    1*Bdark

    2*Warp Point
    4*Crystal Beach
    4*Cessation

    4*Castaway
    4*Bebe's
    4*Roseanne
    2*Celio's
    1*Scott

    Unfortunately, i didn´t catch the names of my opponents, and all the match information comes just from my memory, without any notes, so they might be unaccurate, even wrong at some spots.

    1. GG

    The matchup i´m most familiar with, good so far. I start with absol i think, he has a random selection of basics. I started with absol+cess if my memory serves me, and while he draws absolutely nothing and only threat is 2 energy ralts on the bench, i start hitting with jirachi. In case for a trap, i had absol ex+trode up for the gallade, but that never came. He showed his hand, and it was something like 4 evolutions, 4 scramble/dre.
    1-0

    2.Empozong

    Whoever you were, props for the play. VS. empo you naturally can´t really go with absol too much, so i had to go for the kills too quickly. Unfortunately, i didn´t get to draw beaches. The game was pretty even till i was a turn late&had to take the changes for paralyzing his active bronzong, after which i would´ve been able to knock out what was on the table. Fair enough though, he won straight to that flip, and i guess it would´ve been close if it was heads.
    1-1

    3&4 GG

    Another gg like in the fourth round also, i don´t remember order of these two games though. One of these games was pretty much a copy of the game one - i get my lock working from the start, and there´s nothing he can do really, while he draws just crap.
    The other game was then easily the hardest GG game in the tournament i had. I think there was more or less pressure in both sides, since both of us made a horrific missplay in the start. I had my beach on, he attaches a castform to his 2 energy gardevoir&tries to attack. For some strange reason, i went&knocked it out with trode, while i just should´ve roseanned for jirach. This would´ve not been a problem if my setup was good, but it was quite horrific. While i saw he has pretty much nothing&i´m again one turn behind, i decide to just pass with 2 energy kirlia&not to kill the (claydol?) in the front, since my cess locks it anyway&his benched gardy wouldn´t be able to knock my gallade next turn. Of course he draws a wager, and wins it. The game goes to a really close one in the end, but i manage to make it in the end, GG
    3-1

    5. Amphyzong

    Neither of us really setup fast, so it ends up being one where i take the lead, and he´ll come back with the scrambles. Unfortunately, my draw was quite ****** in here for the beaches, and i didn´t manage to get one to replace the LB, that replaced my t1 beach that came with scott. It wasn´t a missplay though, i just couldn´t afford grabbing 2 beaches with that hand. The game goes down to 3-2 for my advantage, when this loveable ruling came up. I called to hit 80 with gallade, as i usually do(and he didn´t complain for this before) for the knock, and he calls a judge, and it was judged along these guidelines i didn´t know about, the minimum damage leaving the active bronzong 10 away from the KO. The ******* did go further than that though. For some reason, that most likely remains unknown to me, he suddenly calls a judge and blames me for unsportmanship, even though i did absolutely nothing like that. The judge wasn´t interested about that call really, though, i don´t know if the guy has done this kind of stuff regulary.Game goes on, and he then warp points, and i have to sack a voltorb front(i couldn´t get a cess active unfortunately), he absols 30 to jirachi that had already taken 50 and ko's the active voltorb. I could´ve KO'ed one poke if the bronzong wen´t down, but not 2 in 1 turn&i couldn´t help the fact that the jira would die to pain amplifier. It´s a shame that there are idiots like this one around.


    At this point, i kinda lost my interest to the rest of the tournament, even though i had good changes of going on. Not only because of the above, but i heard that one Finnish senior, first timer in a big event, was banned for the tournament for the following:

    As far as i know, our translator told harmlessly that a japanese guy used a funny trick in grinder and one that got through the grinder - he had a dusknoir translation, even though he didn´t have dusknoir in his deck. Ok, i agree that i wouldn´t do that either, but while all the guys that complete the grinder are deckchecked&translations should be checked at the same spot as well, even i thought it was complitely legal.

    Using the head judges own words, a judge asked if it was his translation, he said yes, though he didn´t really understand the complete meaning of this yes. A judge asked the question again with the same answer, went through his deck, and while he found out that there´s no dusknoir in there, his self payed trip ended right there. Strange thing was that no judge was really interested if he knew what exactly means translation(for example if you have copies from card dex, you have plenty of copies, that actually aren´t in your deck, even though those copies are translations) and according to this banned Fin, NO FINNISH TRANSLATOR was allowed to speak with him to clear up why the dusknoir was in there, or if this was cheating in purpose or not.

    The head judge unpolitely cleared to me also that "these things happen" and "we didn´t catch the japanese guy then"...that was deckchecked? Also, i understand that head judge might be a busy man, but if he doesn´t have time to discuss about REMOVING A PLAYER FROM TOURNAMENT, something is wrong. I don´t know what bugs you really... you seemed like a fair person in 2007. "Fair and fun" pokemon indeed.


    6. GG

    I was pretty much down because of the above, and didn´t care at all about this game. I happened to meet a German guy i knew, and while he played gg, it went without too much thinking. Actually, i was almost eaten in this game because of 1 or 2 wagers, can´t remember, but i drew my beaches&i was lucky enough to absol one windstorm away, so he didn´t get his counters up at all.
    4-2

    7. Amphyzong

    This guy was VERY nervous, since he made missplays almost every turn. Unfortunately, i didn´t have that tech chatot, and my opening hand was horrible for a game where baltoy is prized. I had 2 bebes, pokes+few energy, and i drew pretty much nothing. When it was down to 6-3, i started to get some setup finally&with the help of beach and his missplay's, i actually managed to pull it to 3-1. He didn´t have really energy up, and he was bumping up a rayquaza. Unfortunately, i didn´t get my topdecks even when i had clay working now(needed a topdeck celio/bebe within 2 turns), and i didn´t get my absol ex trap ready early enough.
    4-3

    and finishing spot of 35.

    Don´t get the wrong impression of which i will say, my own tournament expect for round 5 was pretty coo l. However, with the attitude of judges and the behaviour of the staff members in there really makes me feel bad. This was my last tournament for pokemon in any case, but with actions like this year's , i´d consider quitting even if i didn´t plan it before.

    Also, while i give BIG minus to the head judge, several others&few staff members, in the other hand we have to remember that most of those guys still were doing good job, that just tends to get shadowed by some other´s bad actions.

    Also, big congrats to all the winners.
     
  2. Leonners

    Leonners New Member

    Great report, Tom.
    Nice deck choice!
     
  3. SD PokeMom

    SD PokeMom Mod Supervisor Staff Member

    i was the seniors head judge, and therefore involved in the situation you describe. all i will say is that what you've written is not completely accurate.

    'mom
     
  4. Krucifier

    Krucifier New Member

    Then it's your responsibility as the head judge to GIVE us some accuracy.
     
  5. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    lemme splain how confidentiality works...



    (listens for milk snorting out of Mike L's nose....)
     
  6. Blueblue

    Blueblue New Member

    I´d really love an accurate answer on this one really... Even though i´m quitting, it´s not encouraging to pay 2500 dollars for the trip, and maybe get disqualified for some suspicious reason. Also, most of the info is from masters head judge (who told me, that he was the one to make the final decision). The info that was NOT from him, was the part that he wasn´t allowed to speak with the finnish translator, and that should be easy to verify.

    Don´t get me wrong though, but you´re in a situation where you´ve ruined several hundred hours of work for a finnish guy in his first big tournament, who was doing surprisingly well (4-1) without cheating, and knowing the guy somehow, i can´t imagine he´d try to cheat for real.

    Also what´s sceary, if i take you right, you´re trying to tell me that masters head judge was making up a story for me then, which would really be quite interesting - and which is quite hard to believe for me, so i´d really love an ACCURATE EXPLANATION. You´re in a situation where you HAVE TO be able to do that, while ruining innocent players tournaments.

    Pokepop: Confidentialy in USA works so that the people in high positions make decisitions, and they don´t even have to explain it through even to the people that are involved...? With all due respect, it´s not how it works in the rest of the world at least, and i doubt it works that way in USA either.
     
  7. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    blueblue: The way it works is that the player gets to discuss his penalty, not third parties.
    If the player posts and wants to discuss it, then it can be discussed.

    You are not the player not his parent. Therefore you don't get to demand a public discussion of it.
     
  8. ColdCoates90

    ColdCoates90 Active Member

    I was your 4th round opponent. That was a great game. Cool meeting you. :D
     
  9. Hax$

    Hax$ New Member

    i know the kid you were talking about tom.. his name was ramsus and i played him in round 5. great kid.. he would never cheat i can tell, and believe me my word is good. he was probably the nicest kid i played all day, and i don't think having a dusknoir translation warrants a DQ lol. that's pretty funny when you think about it, i mean if i wanted to before a match i could be like 'ey kid, watch out for my dusknoir'.. would i get DQ'd for that? ughh this game is too strict sometimes, believe me stuff like this has happened to me too so i know what its like. and in all honesty if you don't play around dusknoir you don't deserve to be at worlds lmao
     
  10. TheDarkTwins

    TheDarkTwins Active Member

    I don't understand why I have to take this. I am being insulted in almost that whole section. I am being called an idiot and that I was being unsportsmanlike. This makes me very upset.

    First off, I called the judge because you forgot to say how many prize cards you were flipping. You actually did say how many you were flipping the other times you announced using Psychic Cut. Why you didn't afterwards I don't know why. As for the unsportsmanlike, you told me I could cheat and you could careless. When I called over the judge you lied to the judge and told them thta isn't what you said. I decide not to make a bigger deal of it then it already was decided to just let it drop even though you told me I could cheat. I am not upset, and I am sorry I upset you, but all I was doing was following a ruling that was handed out. Not to mention the fact that you were mean and rude. You did a bunch of things I am not going to post. I am sorry your mad at me and I am sorry to see you leave this game and that you missed cut as well. I wish you good luck in all of your future endeavors.

    Drew
     
  11. Blueblue

    Blueblue New Member

    I´d like you to point out on which parts you´re actually being insulted, since i really don´t find much of that. You´re either one of those who have no moral at all, or then you´re forgetting the fact that not all speak english as their native language. This since, we both are claiming, that the other did actually lie to the judge.

    First of all, the conversation and the actions, from start to the end from my point of view, with my understanding of english:

    I did say i´m hitting 80 with gallade, you call the judge, judge does what he has to. The fact that i didn´t know about this rule, was maybe mine, maybe it could´ve been told (like the steven&telepass), but i´m not claiming naturally that it was your, or the judges fault.

    After this, turn goes to you, i at least try to mourn something like "do whatever you like, i don´t really care, cheat even if you wish, the game ispretty much over". After this, you´re calling the judge, and you said "i accuse him for unsportmanship, as he claimed that i cheat". If i didn´t hear that wrong, that´s complete ********, which actually made me pretty much ****** off, and also the thing that led to the actions after game, not that i lost, not that i didn´t make it to the tops, not that you called the judge the first time. If you clear this up somehow, i have nothing against what happened, but claiming that i´ve said something i never had, is somewhat the biggest slap on my head one could give.

    For why i never said, i have no clue really... As mentioned, i had never heard of this rule, so pretty much randomly told to flip x prizes, or hit for x dmg. There wasn´t really any cheating system on it, nor i have any idea if i told about prizes early in the game, said the dmg or both.

    To clear the last part up, i´m quitting yes, but not in any hard feelings and the decition was made actually before Havai'i, but for natural reasons i decided not to quit after that quite yet. The reason mainly is that there aren´t any OP tournaments within 200 miles, and the ones further away are rather small expect nationals, so there´s no real feeling to play competitively, anymore. Worlds results, even the fact that i hadn´t read erratas i guess, were mainly because i had already quit the competitive playing in Finland year ago.

    Also, that one match is the only negative memory in pokemon(playwise, it´s always sad to drop of course) i can think of, and i hope you take the time to explain yourself once more. I think i speak rather fine english, but i´m definitely not going to say that i might not say something i don´t mean and i might miss a word, that might turn some sentence upside down. This is however, my honest side of how things went there. I´ve never lied nor cheated (expect for when people have asked for my deck propebly :p) in pokemon, and i won´t do that in the end either.
     
  12. TheDarkTwins

    TheDarkTwins Active Member


    Okay, fair enough, I called the judge after you said, because you told me I could cheat. I told the judge that he said I could cheat and you wouldn't care. You said you did say this above. I never indicated that I thought you thought I was cheating, just that you told me I could. If we misunderstood each other on this, I am sorry.

    As for the insulting here is a quote from your report -

    I am pretty sure that is you call me an idiot.

    As, I knew you were quitting as you alluded to it at Worlds. I still hope we can get past this and have no hard feelings. I hope your stuff on ebay goes for a good amount and that you have success in anything you decide to do. It was nice to meet you and I am sorry that we had such a huge issue come up.

    If you need me to clarify anything else just LMK.

    Drew
     
  13. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    Just to address this one part, the main reason this wasn't covered at the beginning like the Telepass change was because the Telepass ruling was a brand new change to play (outside of Japan) and so we had to make sure everyone had a chance to become aware of it.
    The Psychic Cut ruling, however was not new and was pretty old,

    Link to Psychic Cut rulings in the Compendium LvX:
    http://compendium.pokegym.net/tccmd-compendium-lvx.php#25

    I'm sorry you weren't aware of it Tom, but if you're going to play certain cards in your deck, it's a good idea to review rulings that affect that card and how it's played.
    It's a powerful attack and the ruling just reiterates what the text of the card says to do. First thing that is to be done is to choose the number of prizes to be flipped.

    Since this was the World Championships, players were held to a high level of play.

    Last thing I'll say was that your finals last year was one of the most enjoyable games of Pokemon that I've had the pleasure to watch up close and I hope that you reconsider quitting. Yes, there were a couple of things that left a bad taste in your mouth this year, and as you say, you were quitting anyway, but I hope that some time allows you to reconsider.

    Pop
     
  14. Ra2xse

    Ra2xse New Member

    I'm the player. Still jsut in case, i didn't know that i couldn't do that. It jsut sounded so fun idea (got it by waching grinders with a dude who could be headjudge in finnish nats). I didn't mean to cheat... Sorry....
     
  15. ApachePrime

    ApachePrime New Member

    Just a note about the Deck Checking in the Grinder: The checks were random people picked between rounds. Of the 15 or so of my friends that were there 3 of them were checked. Not everyone was checked, and so this Japanese player that was doing it may not have been caught, as he may not have been checked.

    I completely agree with the DQ of this player though, it's an intimidation tactic. I would never ask for a player to be DQ'd, but if a player had made it through an entire tournament doing something that underhanded... It's really the only sensible punishment.
     
  16. ryanvergel

    ryanvergel New Member

    I don't think you should be DQd for having a card with you that isn't in your deck. The idea of being disqualified because your OPPONENT makes assumptions about your deck is kind of absurd. Did his opponents ask him if the dusknoir was a translation and he lied to them that it was? If so, that is unacceptable, but if his opponents merely assumed he played dusknoir, and adjusted their playstyle on these assumptions, then it's their own fault for being an assumer.

    A player should only pay attention to a translation if it needs to be used. A translation is just a reference card in case a player needs to know any information, it's not meant to be a "sneak peak" at what a person is playing or teching- and if people make poor, and ultimately wrong decisions based on these assumptions it rests with them alone and certainly doesn't warrant disqualifying a player.

    Telling an opponent or a judge that the card was a translation for his deck when it wasn't actually a translation, for example, would most certainly be grounds for disqualification.

    Keep in mind that we have no idea what actually happened in this incident. It's purely hypothetical, as we know nothing about what happened between the players and the judges and will not know since those judges aren't going to come here and discuss a player's private situation with us, nor would they probably do it if the player even brought it up, since it's just not appropriate.

    Without that information we aren't able to determine the legitimacy of the DQ.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2008
  17. Ra2xse

    Ra2xse New Member

    I was said that it was my transaltion (i tought that cards in my deck wasn't in a publick knowelenge....). That's why they DQd me, after sitation HJ was said to our translator that it wouldn't be so bad (maeby not DQ) if it would be Rattata, but it have changed my opponent's playing too much, so i get DQd even if i didn't know taht i was doing wrong. Only thing that bothers me is that i couldn't use a translator (even if a asked for him by lifting the sing, they took him during he was coming....) So Senior palyer was DQd from cheating taht he didn't know that was cheating..... (Are cards in palyers deck in puplig knowlelenge?)
     
  18. meganium45

    meganium45 Active Member

    OK, the player has stepped up, and admitted what he did.

    he stated it WAS his translation.

    It was not in his deck.

    It was a deck changing card.

    I have no doubt that the Japanese Player did the same thing either, and just didn't get caught.

    Vince
     
  19. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    I thought you had the translator supervisor present, no?
    Just because you didn't have the translator that wanted doesn't mean you didn't have one.
    Or am I incorrect about her being there to translate for you?
     
  20. TomShea

    TomShea New Member

    Sportsmanship versus gamesmanship

    There are several issues in this thread that bother me. For starters where is the sportsmanship? Players don't need to write tournament reports that brag how stupid some of their opponets were or how many times they misplayed. We are starting to see a tremendous amount of ego in Pokemon that simply doesn't need to exhist in our game.

    When players go to Worlds they need to be prepared to play at a high level. They NEED to know the rules, how thier cards work AND any rule that may affect their match. You need to play legal decks with legal sleeves. We also don't want to train people to become "RULES LAWYERS". We do want people to play it fair and follow the rules.

    There is a line that some players cross that becomes GAMESMANSHIP. Showing a translator card that would have a serious affect on the match IF it were in ones deck falls under Gamesmanship. This is someone who is trying to MISLEAD their opponet for THIER GAIN. It most cases actions that may be boderline gamesmanship CERTAINLY are unsportsmanlike.

    Finally there is a balance that tournament officials NEED to maintain. We need to arbitrate the rules in a fair and consistent manner. Not assessing penalities that are earned by players who knowingly or unknowingly break the rules PENALIZES those who FOLLOW the rules. Judges don't give anything. Players earn penalities based on their actions. Not knowing the rules or how a card works doesn't cut it at Worlds nor should it.

    The players themselves decide what the overall tournament enviroment is by their actions. When you don't respect each other. When you color each other idiots who misplay every turn. When you try mislead your oppoents by putting out false translators you CREATE the play enviroment. You make the staffs job of arbitrating the rules HARDER. I thought that Pokemon was suspose to be the fun game. I thought it was suspose to be the game of good sportsmanship. I thought it was suspose to be the game of players battling and being happy just to get the opportunity to have done so win or lose. Pokemon was never about the money. Maybe things have changed.

    Think about it

    Tom Shea
    PTO New England

    Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

    Without that information we aren't able to determine the legitimacy of the DQ.[/QUOTE]

    Judges and tournament officials don't publically discuss rulings from tournaments with personalites involved. It just isn't right. One of the things I have seen from these boards time and time again is that players that have rulings go against them NEED to discuss those rulings WITH the officials that had to make those decisions AFTER the tournament when they have cooled down. Many times players don't really understand why the penalty was assesed as they were too busy arguing with the judge about the ruling rather than listening so that they could understand the ruling.

    In any case many of you don't really seem to get the point that the pokemon community doesn't have a right to know why a player got dq'ed from a tourney. The staff has a responsibility to that player to not pubically discuss that situation. Judges don't need to come on these boards to justify their decisions. The players need to respect and trust the judges. We are here to keep it fair, hopefully you will help us keep it fun. We are all working on fast.

    Tom Shea
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2008

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