First time playing since the early 2000s...

Discussion in 'TCG News & Gossip Discussion' started by CrookedNoseGoes, Jul 30, 2016.

  1. CrookedNoseGoes

    CrookedNoseGoes New Member

    With Pokemon Go having invigorated so much PokeHysteria recently, some of my buddies and i decided to dust off our old cards and see if we still had any chops at the game. My question is heavily hypothetical, considering our cards have long-since been cycled out of regular play:

    how well would an old school haymaker deck fair against the types of cards and decks that are currently running popular?

    I don't want to sound like gramps, but the old deck i found in my attic was cards from the team rocket back to the base, with some promos from the time thrown in. I'm just curious just how obsolete that Era of deck building has become, and how the game has changed on a macro level.
     
  2. treyh37

    treyh37 Member

    an old school deck likely wouldn't fair well mostly because about 5 years ago at the start of the black/white block we got a lot of power creep. most pokemon have 20-50 more hp then base set version and attacks deal more damage too.
    it's part of the reason the expanded format that was added starts with black/white as its mostly the same power level.

    at the moment the main kinds of decks are fast basics (regular or ex) ie the deck is setup by turn 1 or 2. there's also various kinds of lock decks (ability lock, item lock)

    if you're wanting to play with the new cards I suggest buying singles of the various staple trainers while you decide what kind of deck to run.

    also be aware rotation will be happening in less then a month so primal clash and newer (PRC-on) should be what you focus on.
     
  3. CrookedNoseGoes

    CrookedNoseGoes New Member

    I see... so fast basics are still being used, their stats and attacks are just somewhat bloated in comparison to the older cards. Would that mean there's less use of big/slow walls (my reference would be a base chansey or jungle snorlax) to set up a solid bench?
     
  4. dungdn93

    dungdn93 New Member

    It is part of the reason for the expanded format has been added beginning with black / white as most of its power level.
     
  5. guilleg33

    guilleg33 New Member

    golden TCG era, base to neo...

    im an old fan too, me and my friends play only old formats, and with all the matches y play i can perfectly say you can beat a newer deck with a classical haymaker, damage swap or do the wave deck. The problem is you have to addapt the rules into the old format , for example: you can not use Bill twice in a turn or you can not use oracle plus oak or oracle plus bill.
    Some Neo Genesis trainer as time capsule or professor elm says "you can not play any more trainers this turn" but some does not, so if you play against a newer deck with "supporters" you have to know exactly wich trainers from your deck are suppose supporters in newers formats, like bill or oak.

    The true fact is that Pokemon GO had caused a poke-fever in most of people and the classical tcg format is popular again. (you can actually see in e-shops that the old card's stock is damatically reduced).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 2, 2016
  6. FREAKAZOID175

    FREAKAZOID175 Member

    I'm not sure where you heard you have to "adapt" older cards into supporters, that is definitely not correct.
    In Pokemon, when it comes to Trainer cards, you always play cards with the same name as though it has the exact same text as the newest printing of the card.
    If you were mixing really old and really new cards you would be playing in the "Unlimited" format which does not selectively assign some old Trainers as Supporters.
    Unless there is a more recent printing of the card that says Supporter on it (an example would be Bill from the Heart Gold Soul Silver block) all old Trainer cards that only say "Trainer" on them are now considered "Item" cards.
    You are correct that you could not play Oracle (a supporter) and a Bill (now considered a Supporter) or two Bills in the same turn, but you definitely could play Oracle and Oak in the same turn since Professor Oak is considered an Item card and there is no limit to the number of Item cards you can play in a turn.
    **If you played Professor Elm it would be treated as though it said "You can't play any more Item cards this turn." so you would still be able to play a Stadium and/or a Supporter if you haven't already.** This is wrong, Professor Elm came from a time when there was only Trainers so you would only be able to play Energy and Pokemon for the remainder of that turn.

    Old decks are definitely capable of winning against current decks, but it is unlikely they will since it is so difficult for them to keep up with the speed and damage output that new decks have. What old decks have going for them is the relatively broken (by today's standards) trainer cards. Cards like Gust of Wind, Professor Oak, Item Finder, and Energy Removal being Item cards makes them ridiculously good since current cards with the same effects are either Supporters, require a coin flip, or are an Ace Spec.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2016
  7. guilleg33

    guilleg33 New Member

    what i wanted to say , (maybe i couldnt say it good as i wanted bc english is not my main language) if u play an old deck with bill agains a new deck, u cant play bill twice in a turn, even if the card does not say "supporter", and this is even more unfair if your rival plays newer print of bill, where the card itself says "supporter". i mean, if you have old cards in play that you rival plays in his or her deck at the same time as you; you have to "addapt" those old cards to make them equal to newers, and bill is the perfect example.

    Also, im pretty sure you can make equal damage and speed as newer decks. Blaines magmar can deal 100 damage in turn 2, and do the wave deck could deal 70.
    Old sets have ridiculusly good trainers but newer sets have outstanding basic pokemon, even not taking account the EX cards.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2016
  8. a_shy_girl_1999

    a_shy_girl_1999 New Member

    I am a returning player as well (been out of the game for nearly 5 years) and if you are just looking for something to play for leagues to get back into the game, I'd look up some deck lists via google (maybe even here?) that are legal format and print out proxies (great site for proxies: http://www.bebessearch.com/). Older cards, you can use, but they aren't going to be able to keep up with the new stuff for the most part and you also can't use the majority of them in tournaments (even reprinted cards, 90% of them have had major text changes over the years). After you find a deck that you like and tweak it to how you want you can start trading for the cards you need and weed out the proxies with your older cards (it's what I did anyways because my goal is to also be able to play in tournaments as well again, which you can't use older cards for since they have been out of rotation for ages). I've also sold quite a number of my older cards to be able to buy some cards.

    If making proxies and trading/selling your old stuff isn't something you want to do, you can use current theme decks as well to get you going in the new format w/ the new cards.

    Welcome back :) It still is a great game and it's still also going VERY strong!
     
  9. FREAKAZOID175

    FREAKAZOID175 Member

    100 damage is fairly decent, but there are currently decks that can hit for 180 to 200 damage fairly easily on the first turn they can attack. A few Pokemon these days even have more than 200HP. Those are pretty high hurdles for older cards to clear. I'm not saying they can't do it, but rather they likely will not against a current competitive deck.
     
  10. guilleg33

    guilleg33 New Member

    current decks and current cards are preety ugly, in my opinion sure... but the game itself is not about card-beauty.

    Game itself have changed a lot, comparing to firsts sets.
     
  11. ShadowCard

    ShadowCard Active Member

    I disagree, based on how many players use prefer reverse-foil, full art, and gold versions of cards :tongue:
     
  12. Otaku

    Otaku Active Member

    I am seeing either some questionable rule claims or else some questionable wording.

    The physical TCG has Unlimited (all sets legal), Expanded (Black & White and later releases legal), and Standard (XY: Kalos Starter Set and later releases) Formats. Lysandre's Trump Card is banned I think in all of these formats, but for sure in Expanded and Standard. Shiftry (BW: Next Destinies 72/99) is banned for Expanded play, but legal for Unlimited. Should you try the Pokémon TCG Online (the official TCG program owned by TPCi), there is an additional Constructed Format, the Legacy Format; it consists all all HeartGold/SoulSilver series releases, Call of Legends, and Black & White series releases (nothing is banned).

    If you're using an official format, then know that to properly use older cards you need to


    • Know the current game rules and terms
    • Know the game rules and terms from when that card originally released.

    The big confusion comes from three things


    • Evolution of game rules and mechanics
    • Reprints with updated, game relevant text
    • Errata

    The first turn rules have changed over the years; if you're using older cards to play in the Unlimited Format, just know that you cannot attack first turn. Everything else goes; decks in Unlimited are often designed to win first turn by dedicating themselves to bounce effects (ensuring your opponent is left with one Pokémon in play), and methods of damage counter placement (to KO that last Pokémon without attacking). Or at least this was the case the last time I messed with it; that was years ago and I would be happy to be wrong.

    The core card types have changed, then changed back. From Base Set until Diamond & Pearl we just had Pokémon, Trainers, and Energy cards. There were many subdivisions within these cards, but all cards fell into one of these three types while in your hand or deck (some could be more than one while in play, IIRC). With the release of Diamond & Pearl, it was decided that we would go from three to five core card types: Pokémon, Trainers, Stadiums, Supporters, and Energy. Stadium and Supporter cards predate this, and were originally just a subdivision of Trainers.

    This continued until the release of Black & White, at which point Stadium and Supporter cards were rejoined with Trainers, and a new subdivision for Trainers was added (Items). It was ruled that any Trainer card from before Black & White that was not a Stadium or Supporter would be treated as an Item, and all new Trainer cards were either Items, Stadiums, or Supporters. The non-Trainer Stadium and Supporter cards released while there were five core card types (instead of three) were also ruled to count as Trainers of the correct type (Stadium or Supporter).

    When a new card is released that is meant to be a reprint of an older card, the older versions are to be played as if they had the text of the newest version. If the text is significantly different, the older version either cannot be used, or can only be used with a copy of a current version for reference (I can't remember off the top of my head which). Some cards have also received errata officially changing the text of all older versions.

    *whew* So what does all that mean?

    Professor Oak is played as if he was an Item. Yes, Professor Oak is functionally identical in effect to the current Supporters Professor Juniper and Professor Sycamore, but it doesn't matter: he is played as if he was an Item. You can play multiple copies of him in the same turn, and you can use him even if you've already used a Supporter, etc.

    Bill was most recently re-released as a Supporter, during the period when Supporters were not considered Trainers. If you use any Bill now, treat them as both Trainers and Supporter cards.

    Potion now heals 30 damage instead of having you remove two damage counters. "Healing" is now an officially recognized mechanic, distinct from just moving (and removing) damage counters. An errata was issued for this.

    Switch is treated as an Item, but I think you can still use copies from Base Set because the actual effect text is close enough.

    Professor Elm is played like he was an Item, but he prevents you from playing any additional Trainer cards. He was not released during the time when "Trainer" in card text should be interpreted as "Item".

    Junk Arm is treated as an Item, and its effect that allows you to discard two cards from hand to reclaim a Trainer from the discard pile actually only can get you an Item; while it says "Trainer", it was released during the time when Supporter and Stadium cards were their own thing. With such cards, you treat "Trainer" as if it read "Item".

    Computer Search... I know we got a ruling for this but I still can't remember what it was. Based on everything else, the older copies for it should be treated as Ace Spec cards as well, meaning in Unlimited you could only have a single Computer Search. Yet I think the two are treated as separate cards, so that you can still use four of the older Computer Search cards in your Unlimited decks. Please, if someone knows the correct rule for this one, let us all know.

    Anyway, with all that said an old school Haymaker deck is probably losing to most modern cards. While the older deck would have an easier time setting up and disrupting the opposing player, Haymaker's big weakness was a deck that could set up attackers capable of OHKOing Haymaker Pokémon. Mind Games (Neo Genesis Sneasel and Slowking) could probably still prove strong.
     
  13. dungdn93

    dungdn93 New Member

    The old card, you can use, but they will not be able to keep up with new tools for the most part, and you can not use most of them in the league
     
  14. FREAKAZOID175

    FREAKAZOID175 Member

    From another thread: link
     
  15. Otaku

    Otaku Active Member

    Ah, right. The funny think is the thread to which FREAKAZOID175 links is one where I used the "Thanks" option for the answer PokePop gave explaining how it now works. XD
     

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