Fossil Mulligan - Try to get better hand

Discussion in 'Cards: Strategy and Rulings Discussion' started by Dratini_Joe3, Feb 9, 2004.

  1. Dratini_Joe3

    Dratini_Joe3 New Member

    I have a question on Mulligans and fossils.
    I understand the ruling that if you have no basics in your hand, you can Mulligan and draw again.

    I was looking at the cards and was wondering what if you had a deck with no basics and only used fossils for your basics. Could you choose to mulligan multiple times until you got the hand you desired?

    Some examples would be where a player could attempt to get a Kabutops EX + Rare Candy + Multiple fossils all in the opening draw for speed or Fossil + Rare Candy + Cradily for early disruption. So I was wondering is there a limit to Mulligans? Or do tournament organizers put limits on this?
     
  2. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    Under current rules, you could do this, looking for an uber-hand.
     
  3. Mr. Grass

    Mr. Grass New Member

    Of course, if you keep doing this your opponent is more likely to get the cards they want for an uber-hand too.
     
  4. AbsolutelyNobody

    AbsolutelyNobody New Member

    Well, you could go first so you could hopefully speed them out...I love this idea! Now to get 2 armaraldo/cradilly...This could work... :D
     
  5. Master Professor Birch

    Master Professor Birch Active Member

    I had a kid in the C. C. play that deck with the "Armaraldo/Cradilly" combination. He mulliganed for ten minutes before he found a perfect hand to start with. I went to the other judges and ask what should be done? They said that he was trying to get an unfair advantage, so the mulligans should be limited to six. Then if he drew a fossil that he should have to play it. This kid would have mulliganed for the entire 30-minute match if a limit was not put on the number of times that he could mulligan. Something has to be done with this type of deck with fossils as the only basic Pokemon. He still won his age group and was the only player to go undefeated in the tournament.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2004
  6. davechri

    davechri New Member

    I built a deck with an Omastar/Kabutops EX deck that used all fossils and the only TRUE basic Pokemon I had was Absol.

    It was quite a shock when I mulliganed about 15 times, finally got the Absol and used Bad News, discarding 15+ cards from my opponent's hand. Quite destructive.

    The idea wasn't to mulligan and destroy my opponent's hand. I had the Absol simply because I wanted to try something a little different. But destroying my opponent's hand was a nice side effect.

    The people I played after that were a little leary of taking extra cards when I mulliganed. LOL.
     
  7. P_A

    P_A Active Member

    I laughed so hard when I read your post that I almost choked on my coffee. Look out for the new deck eveyone!
     
  8. bullados

    bullados <a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?

    one Absol and a buncha Fossils? That'd be very interesting... A nice disruption combo in a bgame that has very little now.
     
  9. Adv1sor

    Adv1sor New Member

    Your decision to limit mulligans seems very wrong to me. I played a deck last week with eight basics and in one match had to mulligan seven times myself. What would your answer be to my opponent if he complained?
     
  10. bullados

    bullados <a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?

    those are two very different cases. In the first case, with the fossils, the player is choosing whether to play those as Basic Pokemon or Trainer cards (if I get the ruling correctly), and thus has to be limited in the number of Mulligans he can take. In the second case, the player only has Basics to work with, and thus is allowed as many reshuffles as it takes for him to get a Basic Pokemon into his/her hand.

    This is all based on the information provided in this particular topic. If I am wrong about this, please, somebody correct me.
     
  11. Master Professor Birch

    Master Professor Birch Active Member

    Past Experience....


    To begin with you have basics in your deck. When a player only has fossils, he has no basics until he declares a fossil trainer card a basic. Since you have actually have basics in your deck, you would be allowed to mulligan.

    I built a version of the deck that "Timmy Two Tone" posted on this website that his friend had made. The "Gengar" (Hide in the Shawdows) deck with four basics and twelve fossils. My son's friend played it in the C. C. and finished second in his age group. He never had problems with a mulligan.

    From past experience from the "WOTC" Qualifiers that they ran for the trips to STSD and Worlds, I remember a boy playing a deck with four "Neo Genesis-Lugia" and the rest of his deck was different energy. After mulliganing for ten minutes the judges gave him a game loss.

    "Pokepop" is correct with what he says that the player could do this-looking for the perfect hand. But, there has to be a limit on time or something. What would you do if a player uses mulligans until the time limit is up???? Call the game a "Draw" when no cards have been played????

    The rules are warped on this and did Nintendo/PUI do this to allow games to start like this with unlimited mulligans??? I don't think that they had this in mind when these cards were released. Anyway, that my two cents worth on this subject. And after the ruling was made about limiting the player with six mulligans, I thought that there would be problems. In this case the Player with only fossils as basic Pokemon did win his age group.
     
  12. meganium45

    meganium45 Active Member

    You play the rules as they are written.

    If I want to Mulligan 20 times in a game, with only fossils as my basics, then I mulligan 20 times. My opponent will look EVERY TIME at my cards, and will soon know EXACTLY what they are up against.

    Also, you are messed if you pull the Absol on the first pull. Absol is a relatively weak basic, meant to cause disruption and slow down Garde Decks.

    The mono-Kabutops player can play for a god hand, the mono-Armaldo player can play for a god hand.

    You can be sitting with 20 cards, and the Oak;s Research you need to shrink your hand in case of Absol.

    A mono-Kabutops deck is a good deck, but will run out on itself. It needs Xatu to really become a power.

    A mono-Armaldo deck is much more fierce, but any fighting resistant poke will make it a problem, and let's face it, it does not have the most dominating attack in the game.

    Armaldo's power will be counteracted by the opponent having a great number of cards.

    As for the Gengar-porter...there are 4 basics, which if pulled, force the player to start the game. Fossils are fun, but when you get the Gastly, that is all.

    Whoever limited the number of mulligans was distorting the rules, and taking a very uniquely themed deck and chastizing the player playing it for taking advantage of the rules.

    Just what we need, less originality in deckbuilding. That's why I do not like YGO. (end editorial)

    Note, the opponent in this situation has their Pokemon FACE DOWN, so the mulliganing player has no idea what they are up against. Further note, you cannot rare candy first turn, so it would not be until turn 2 that any advantage at all would take place (except maybe Absol)....

    Just my 2 cents....

    Meganium45
     
  13. Adv1sor

    Adv1sor New Member

    I am not aware of any such rule for Pokemon.

    I do agree that the rules are warped here.

    When I started playing there were never any time limits placed on matches. But then, with the emergence of the stall decks, time limits were installed. This killed the stall decks and, in my opinion, hurt the game.

    Should we now take steps to kill the "Fossil" decks?
     
  14. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    A tournament has to keep to it's time schedule, at least as best as it can.
    Unlimited times for matches would cause incredible delays as 90% of the players are finished their matches and sitting around while one of two matchs drag on. The tournaments would end at 3 in the morning.

    Now, while I did say that the player could take advantage of the fossil mulligan rule to try for a great hand, they also have to be wary of causing a "delay of game".
    If I were a Judge, I'd probably give the person a heads up that if they didn't get an opening hand in the next couple of shuffles, they'd start getting prize penalties for each reshuffle after than. I don't think I'd jump straight to a game loss.
     
  15. meganium45

    meganium45 Active Member

    WHAT? The penalty for a mulligan is already set at a one card advantage for your opponent, which they have the right to take or not to take.

    Needless to say, such utilization of the optional fossil rule will NOT cause ANY type of penalty at my upcoming events, unless PUI rules on the matter before the 20th of February.

    Time limits have always been a necessity for tourney control.

    Using the rules of the game to your advantage has always been the way the best players distinguish themselves...

    Broken cards get re-written or errattaed (Strength Charm, Skyridge Machamp) or banned (Sneasel and Slowking).

    As the rules are written now, the fossil hunters are fine. Remember that Buried Fossil is a true basic, and not an optional fossil trainer.

    Just my 2 cents,

    M45
     
  16. Spectreon

    Spectreon New Member

    While there is no "PUI" ruling, any ruling the local judge makes is final!!! It is deemed as stalling when the player intitially mulligans for several turns even with what can be used as Basics in their hand... I would agree with Pop here.... after so many times, I would add a Prize Penalty to the Mulligan penalty for delay of game. One prize behind will make otehr player think twice before intentually mulliganing again....

    Now that being said, I only agree with this under time limited tourneys. Gor fun, do whatever you want... but I am sure your opponent will get bored and give up, and walk away after 15-20 mulligans.... I would.....

    And all Fossils +1 Absol... SICK... but an interesting idea.....
     
  17. BJJ763

    BJJ763 Trading Mod Supervisor Staff Member Trader Feedback Mod

    Isn't that first deck illegal? Fossils are Trainers. They are not Basic Pokémon. While you can play them as Basics during your set up, a deck list would reveal no Basic Pokémon and therefor an illegal deck.....

    The one with the lone Absol.........
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2004
  18. Adv1sor

    Adv1sor New Member

    Please help me find the rule where it says that you have to have basic pokemon in your deck.
     
  19. NoPoke

    NoPoke New Member

    If a player muligans all the way to time then I will award a game loss against that player. I would interpret this behaviour as either an attempt to disrupt the tournament or an unwillingness to play the game. Both of which can be penalised.

    Similarly if the player were to wait until time is about to be called and then hope to get the first prize before their opponent then I would classify that as unsporting behaviour and apply a penalty.

    I wont penalise a player who is making best effort to actually PLAY an unusual rogue deck. the emphasis is on my belief as a judge that the player is actually willing to PLAY. Mulligan for 20 or more minutes and I'd take some convincing that the player was actually willing to play.
     
  20. Spectreon

    Spectreon New Member

    I would say 10 minutes is too long.... IMO....

    How licks to the center of the tootsie pop???lol

    Seriously, shuffling your deck and drawing a new hand takes like 20-40 seconds, you can feasably get in 15 Hands in 10 minutes or less.... more than enough... after that... I would award prize loss for each Mulligan. That simple.....

    This is an interesting, and possibly good red face paint deck idea, but stalling is unsportsman like conduct, You should be able to get a feasably good hand within 10 Minutes..... If not, then not the Judges or other players problem, it is yours!!!!
     

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