Gatr in team scenario

Discussion in 'Cards: Strategy and Rulings Discussion' started by Dendrobatida, Aug 22, 2003.

  1. Dendrobatida

    Dendrobatida New Member

    Yeah, I know, DCI sanctioned team play is SOOO last month, but I've been wondering this for awhile now, so I thought I'd ask and see what happens.

    Riptide:

    does 10 damage plus 10 damage times the number of (w) energy cards in your discard pile. Then, shuffle all (w) energy cards from your discard pile into your deck.


    Given the wording here, chock full of youry goodness, I was wondering what sorts of combinations would be possible here. Is this possible?:

    :confused: Player A, playin' Gatr, chooses for the first your (to complete the effects of the first sentence) his/her own discard pile where there are, say, six water energy. He does 70 damage. To fulfill the necessity of the second your, he/she chooses the water energy in his/her teammate's discard to shuffle back into his/her teammate's deck. Teammate is playing support fighting, or something, and thus shuffles diddly squat. Repeat ad nauseum. :confused:

    This seems pretty wicked powerful to me, and I'm wondering why I haven't seen it utilized before. Perhaps the second "your" must be targetted to the same place as the first "your"? I'd understand that, except for the nagging "Mary factor".

    Mary:

    Draw 2 cards. Then, shuffle 2 cards from your hand into your deck.

    This I've seen in action at both Gen-Con and Origins, and it was ruled each time to force the player of the card to draw the 2 cards. The shuffle in, however, could be done by either player. The wording of Mary echoes that of Riptide closely, except for that extra "your" in the first sentence of Riptide. Perhaps it boils down to the effect of the word "Then" in the card. This indicates that the two effects are not concurrent, they're sequential, which makes me wonder...hence the question.

    I've asked folks in the pojo chatrooms, and have had varying opinions. I'm honestly not sure, so I figured I'd ask all y'all. Thoughts?

    (Just envisioning 2 decks, one a speedy gatr, the other a support with parasect. Both have 4 juggler, etc.)
     
  2. Tails

    Tails New Member

    I'm not too keen on the rulings, but I believe that you need to target the same player for both instances of "your" on the card. Otherwise, you could use an energy discard deck to make Gatr much too powerful...

    From experience, if it sounds too good to be true it probably is... This sounds like one of those cases...
     
  3. BJJ763

    BJJ763 Trading Mod Supervisor Staff Member Trader Feedback Mod

    Mary - [font=Palatino,Book Antiqua]Draw 2 cards. Then, shuffle 2 cards from your hand into your deck.[/font]

    In Team Play "you" and "your" are key words. The first sentence does not have a "you" (it is implied). There for only the person playing Mary could draw 2 cards. The second sentence does have the word "your" in it. There for you replace the "your" with "your or your partner" and can choose who gets to shuffle 2 cards back into their deck.

    Riptide Feraligatr - [font=Palatino,Book Antiqua]Riptide Does 10 damage plus 10 damage times the number of {W} Energy cards in your discard pile. Then, shuffle all {W} Energy cards from your discard pile into your deck. 10+ [/font]

    Since it specifies "your" Discard in the first sentence you can pick either you or your partner. But whomever you target is also the target of the second sentence (or at least should be - it's late, i'm tired and i cannot find the reference for this that i thought i had.)
     
  4. Dendrobatida

    Dendrobatida New Member

    Yeah, see, that's what I was thinking, too (thanks bjj and tails). It seems too good to be true, but I couldn't find a clear ruling on this, or anything of similar enough wording to be apropos. I checked the compendium and some chat logs, but couldn't find anything concise. Is there any definite ruling that says the second your in a sequence has to be targetted to the same place as the first your? I can definitely see the logic of something that happens simultaneously being directed to the same place, but something in my brain refused to accept that logic wholeheartedly for a sequence including the word "then". Ahhh, overanalysis. :rolleyes:

    More opinions, or a definite scrap of wording from an MT would be great. Anybody able to find one?
     
  5. Charizard19190

    Charizard19190 New Member

    Uh....Hi?
     
  6. Charizard19190

    Charizard19190 New Member

    Ummm...i would like to have some help with my deck, please!?
     
  7. dkates

    dkates New Member

    Welcome, but you're taking this thread off-topic and you're in the wrong forum.
     
  8. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator


    Welcome to the boards.
    Note that these are message boards and not chat rooms, so if you want to start a new topic of discussion, you... start a New Topic! And in the correct forum. Please review the forum descriptions to see where a topic would belong.
    In our case, for deck help, it would be... Deck Help and Strategy. Please note that for deck help, you need to provide a complete deck. We don't allow "please build me a deck from scratch" topics.
    Thanks!
     
  9. Charizard19190

    Charizard19190 New Member

    So watcher sayin' is stupid?
     
  10. Charizard19190

    Charizard19190 New Member

    That was to dkates!!!!!
     
  11. dkates

    dkates New Member

    I don't get what you mean, Charizard, but I was merely trying to point out that your message was posted in the wrong place. If you post the deck you want help on in the Deck Strategy forum, I will be happy to help you with it.
     
  12. Prof. Douglas Zuver

    Prof. Douglas Zuver New Member

    Well, Jacob, you definately came up with a good question,
    I really had to research this one and here is what I found:

    Feraligatr
    Pokémon card
    LV. 69 #160
    {W}
    120 HP
    Stage 2 Pokémon
    Evolves from Croconaw
    Put Feraligatr on the Stage 1 card
    Weakness: {G}
    Resistance: n/a
    Retreat cost: {C}{C}{C}
    Pokémon Power: Downpour As often as you like during your turn (before your attack), you may discard a {W} Energy card from your hand. This power can't be used if Feraligatr is Asleep, Confused, or Paralyzed.
    {W}{W}{W} Riptide Does 10 damage plus 10 damage times the number of {W} Energy cards in your discard pile. Then, shuffle all {W} Energy cards from your discard pile into your deck. 10+

    ............................................................................................

    Pokemon Updated Floor Rules
    B. Pokemon Rules for Team Play
    Targets of Effects
    1. All Trainer, Pokemon Power, and attack effects that specify "you" can be played
    on either you or your Partner. All Trainer, Pokemon Power, and attack effects that
    specify "your opponent" can be played on either member of the opposite team.
    4. Once you designate which player is "you" or "opponent" then every instance
    of "you" or "opponent" in that effect refers to that same player (except for costs).

    Look at Riptide and notice the word THEN connecting the counting of the
    cards in your discard pile to the shuffling of them into the deck.
    This makes it all one big effect so you cannot count your water energy
    and then shuffle your partner's water energy into their deck. Yes, I know
    there are two sentences there, but this is all one big effect.

    Sometimes there are two separate effects in the same sentence and
    both of them are triggered by the same flip. Here is an example:

    Tyranitar
    Pokémon card
    D
    120 HP
    Stage 2 Pokémon
    Evolves from Pupitar
    Put Tyranitar on the Stage 1 card
    Weakness: {F}
    Resistance: {P} -30
    Retreat cost: {C}{C}{C}{C}
    Poké-BODY: Dark Aura All Energy attached to Tyranitar is {D} Energy instead of its usual type.
    {D}{D}{D}{D} Stamp Flip a coin. If heads, this attack does 50 damage plus 10 more damage and does 10 damage to each of your opponent’s Benched Pokémon, if any. (Don’t apply Weakness and Resistance for Benched Pokémon.) 50+


    Stamp flips a coin, both effects dependent on the flip, but they are definitely
    two distinctly separate attacks, so the bench damage could be designated to
    either of your opponent's benches regardless of the fact that all of this is
    listed inside a single sentence.
    ..................................................................................

    A long, long time ago, when I sent in my multiplayer Play Testing report
    I warned MTM about three Pokemon:
    Team Rocket's Meowth
    Dark Ursaring
    and Riptide Feraligatr.
    I told him to think carefully how he wanted to handle these cards,
    so these things have already been taken into consideration.

    By the way, look closely at Dark Ursaring, see where it says
    (yours and your opponent’s),
    That means that you do not flip for every Pokemon on the table,
    you flip for one friendly player and one opposing player.

    5. Cards and effects that refer to both players affect only the chosen players
    on each team. Cards that affect all players affect every Player in the game.

    Dark Ursaring
    Pokémon card
    LV. 28 #217
    C
    60 HP
    Stage 1 Pokémon
    Evolves from Teddiursa
    Put Dark Ursaring on the Basic Pokémon
    Weakness: {F}
    Resistance: {P} -30
    Retreat cost: {C}{C}
    {C} Provoke Look at your opponent’s hand. If he or she has any Baby Pokémon and/or Basic Pokémon there, you may put any number of them onto your opponent’s Bench (as long as there’s room). Then, your opponent looks at your hand. If you have any Baby Pokémon and/or Basic Pokémon there, your opponent may put any number of them onto your Bench (as long as there’s room).
    {C}{C} Battle Frenzy For each Pokémon in play (yours and your opponent’s), flip a coin. For each heads, this attack does 20 damage to that Pokémon. Don’t apply Weakness and Resistance for this attack.


    This card however was banned:

    Team Rocket’s Meowth
    Pokémon card
    LV. 11 #52
    {C}
    40 HP
    Basic Pokémon
    Weakness: {F}
    Resistance: {P} -30
    Retreat cost: {C}
    {C} Miraculous Comeback Flip a number of coins equal to the total number of Pokémon in play. This attack does 10 damage times the number of heads. Then, Team Rocket’s Meowth does 10 damage times the number of tails to itself.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2003
  13. Dendrobatida

    Dendrobatida New Member

    Thanks, Doug. That's what I was looking for. Just couldn't find it anywhere, for some reason. I dunno what all these other posts are about :). Just to throw a wrench in it, though (for sheer sake of fun of debate), point #4 states in parenthesis "except for costs". I recognize that it probably refers to energy costs and requirements for the attack [e.g., "you must discard all fire energy attached in order to perform this attack"], but given that, is the shuffle back in part of the attack an attack cost, or simply an effect of the attack like a rapid spin sending something back to the bench? I doubt it's actually a cost, but hey, fun with debate!
     
  14. Prof. Douglas Zuver

    Prof. Douglas Zuver New Member

    Pokemon Updated Floor Rules
    B. Pokemon Rules for Team Play
    "Paying for Effects
    Many Pokemon Powers, Attacks, and Trainers have costs that go with
    playing or using an effect.

    For example, playing a Professor Elm or a Time Capsule doesn't let you
    play any more Trainers that turn, using Entei's Howl ends your turn,
    and so on. These costs are always applied to the person playing the
    card (not necessarily the one using the effects from the card).
    This means that when you play Professor Elm, whether you shuffle
    your hand back into your deck or allow your teammate to do so,
    you cannot play any further Trainer cards that turn."

    So, "cost" in this case is refering to big stuff like
    "You can play only one Supporter card each turn."
    These are things that really become unbalanced
    if you can pass them to your partner.

    Otherwise, with Elm, you could say my partner cannot play any
    more trainers this turn...
    Well, really, since it is YOUR turn I guess he can't...:lol:
    Then you happily play a dozen more trainer cards yourself.
     
  15. Dendrobatida

    Dendrobatida New Member

    Aww, c'mon, what's the problem with a little imbalance? :)


    Anyway, Stephanie and I have been running Gatr/ other water at leagues for a few weeks now, and it's been working swimmingly (pun intended). We haven't been splitting the effect of the attack, but we find that when she goes first, and I second, she has the option of juggler'ing for me, then downpouring out of my hand, then using the energy in my discard to riptide for 60 or so. Then, on her next turn, she uses the water in her discard. Kind of eliminates the need for parasect, which is nice. Besides, on my turn, I get rid of water with abandon, retreating mantines without care, etc, because I know she can just put it back in my deck for me (and do some nifty damage, too). It's a pity we can't split the wording of the attack, but even without splitting it works pretty darn well.
     
  16. dkates

    dkates New Member

    A little imbalance? Not much, other than that it makes people play fewer different deck types. A lot of imbalance, however, is an issue. Sneasel and Slowking are the obvious examples -- had to be banned from Modified before their set was.
     

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