Help for someone getting into MTG?

[Marril]

I don't play Standard, you loon. That's different from not playing Magic. There's a reason I don't consider things like filter lands or storage lands when suggesting duals—they're heinously inefficient compared to painlands, fetchlands, shocklands, real duals, and so on. Painlands are (relatively) efficient. They don't come into play tapped, they don't require turns of charging up, they don't bounce other lands, they don't deplete themselves, or any of the other downsides in random Standard-useable-only duals. If you want to toss a Gilt-Leaf Palace into your B/G deck, you're at a tempo disadvantage unless you're playing elves (if you are playing elves, though, you should get four ASAP), compared to using Llanowar Wastes. For some decks, this isn't as bad as it is for other decks. Some decks would rather be a turn behind in mana than take 2-3 damage overall. But this doesn't encompass every deck, and more games are lost due to bad tempo than an extra point of damage or three.

I also never said that you didn't need Tarmogoyf to win a big Standard tournament. All I said was that you didn't need Tarmogoyf to play green. It seems like in your haste to try and make me look foolish, you neglected to read what I actually had to say. Whoops on your part.

You also might want to notice that you don't vote on every base set card. I really don't feel like going on about Magic design and how Damnation isn't going to get reprinted, because it'll be lost on you for the reason that you don't even read what I say. You just fill in what you think I'm saying and work from there. In retrospect, I think this entire reply was a waste of time on my part, but I figured I wouldn't let you negatively impact an impressionable new player as to the validity of the advice of someone who's played for years.

 

[pat460]

I don't play Standard, you loon. That's different from not playing Magic. There's a reason I don't consider things like filter lands or storage lands when suggesting duals—they're heinously inefficient compared to painlands, fetchlands, shocklands, real duals, and so on. Painlands are (relatively) efficient. They don't come into play tapped, they don't require turns of charging up, they don't bounce other lands, they don't deplete themselves, or any of the other downsides in random Standard-useable-only duals. If you want to toss a Gilt-Leaf Palace into your B/G deck, you're at a tempo disadvantage unless you're playing elves (if you are playing elves, though, you should get four ASAP), compared to using Llanowar Wastes. For some decks, this isn't as bad as it is for other decks. Some decks would rather be a turn behind in mana than take 2-3 damage overall. But this doesn't encompass every deck, and more games are lost due to bad tempo than an extra point of damage or three.

I also never said that you didn't need Tarmogoyf to win a big Standard tournament. All I said was that you didn't need Tarmogoyf to play green. It seems like in your haste to try and make me look foolish, you neglected to read what I actually had to say. Whoops on your part.

You also might want to notice that you don't vote on every base set card. I really don't feel like going on about Magic design and how Damnation isn't going to get reprinted, because it'll be lost on you for the reason that you don't even read what I say. You just fill in what you think I'm saying and work from there. In retrospect, I think this entire reply was a waste of time on my part, but I figured I wouldn't let you negatively impact an impressionable new player as to the validity of the advice of someone who's played for years.

And I dont think YOU read what I post. I didn't only say storage or filter lands. I also mentioned the dual lands from Lorwyn, which are dueal lands. Painlands are only good in some cases, and in standard they are bad. I have also played Magic for years, staying current, playin both standard and extended. You obviously arent staying current with Magic, or you would know about the Lorwyn duels, as they are a staple in type two and are rapidly becoming a staple in type 1.5. Painlands are not good in either format compared to them because of the first part of their name; pain. The burn you do to yourself is bad, especially in type 1.5 which you supposedly play. Im just trying to make sure that a new player isn't influenced by a "player" that isn't current with the game, and playes a different format than the player is trying to start. And, i never even mentioned bouncelands, as they arent legal in type 2, further prooving that you arent current with magic. If they were, that would be four blocks, a core set, and coldsnap, in one format.

And, if you want to play competativly, and you weant to play green, you need tarmargoyf or your chances of loosing are MUCH higher.

 

[Marril]

You realize I use painlands only in one of my Legacy decks and none of my Vintage decks, I hope. Again, this is because I put tempo above a point of damage or two, since I don't run the tribes required of the Lorwyn tribal lands to come into play untapped. I also use shocklands for this same purpose. In general, if you can afford to spend a few life for a tempo advantage, you should take it.

And when did I ever say bouncelands (Ravnica?), lair lands (Planeshift), filter lands (Odyssey), comes-into-play tapped lands (many, many blocks), or whatever, were in Standard? "Standard-useable-only duals" refers to the fact that a vast majority of these types of duals are only playable in lower-power formats. Nothing more. I'm willing to accept that, okay, fair enough, I forgot about the Lorwyn duals because they're of exceptionally little use to me and the majority of my opponents would rather do things like Polluted Delta into Underground Sea than toss out a Secluded Glen that only comes into play untapped in the unlikely (given the format) event they have a Faerie in their hand. But when you start insinuating that I don't even play Magic because of this, you just come across as a complete loon. I think I've had enough of your silliness in thinking you know what I'm talking about, at any rate. Start posting intelligently or stop posting.

 

[dogma]

Damnation will get rotated out and will probably never be reprinted. Wrath of God will probably be in every base set until the end of time. If they really wanted white to be an engine of destruction, they'd reprint Armageddon.

Also, at Regis_Neo: I've linked to him already, but this guy's articles are pretty good for people who are either new to the game or don't want to spend a lot of money, yet still want to be able to win at casual tournaments. He does things like smoosh together Tenth Edition starter decks, and decks based around cheap rares. Good reading for you.

You're almost certainly right about Damnation... but until it goes, Standard White is quite subpar. It's worrying for one card to have such an effect on a colour. Apparently White will be changing focus in coming sets... that should be interesting. There are calls to reprint 'geddon but that would just be insane.

Because I don't play Standard, I tend to think of White as WW too... apparently it doesn't cut it in the standard environment. Which is a shame really, given that White hasn't got anything else left which is decent and unique. As a splash colour though, it's still pretty cool.

Regis_Neo: http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/expansion/elvesvsgoblins (there are decklists at the bottom of the page). I would recommend looking around the M:TG site itself (though if you're starting off, the articles won't make much sense to you.)

Tarmogoyf debate: Yay, another thread bringing that one up. Again. And, on a non-M:TG site. (In case you're wondering, but yay I meant nay ).

Dual-lands: there are a few rather nice cards in Morningtide. Mutavault being one of them... otherwise, this discussion over who said what about dual-lands isn't exactly helping someone understand how to play M:TG. Regis_Neo, if you're trying to follow the conversation, it's basically about cards in recent sets which let you tap for more than one colour mana. Think maybe the holon special energies from EX Delta Species (FF, GL and WP), which let you do something similar in Pokémon. Obviously that would be ridiculously overpowered, so the cards have drawbacks. Different drawbacks have been used over the years, but really, it depends on whether any of the blocks in Standard feature a strong-multicolour theme. If it does, a good dual-land is a given. Otherwise, not so much. That's about all you really need to know, except maybe knowing why certain cards are good or not.

d

 

[pat460]

You realize I use painlands only in one of my Legacy decks and none of my Vintage decks, I hope. Again, this is because I put tempo above a point of damage or two, since I don't run the tribes required of the Lorwyn tribal lands to come into play untapped. I also use shocklands for this same purpose. In general, if you can afford to spend a few life for a tempo advantage, you should take it.

And when did I ever say bouncelands (Ravnica?), lair lands (Planeshift), filter lands (Odyssey), comes-into-play tapped lands (many, many blocks), or whatever, were in Standard? "Standard-useable-only duals" refers to the fact that a vast majority of these types of duals are only playable in lower-power formats. Nothing more. I'm willing to accept that, okay, fair enough, I forgot about the Lorwyn duals because they're of exceptionally little use to me and the majority of my opponents would rather do things like Polluted Delta into Underground Sea than toss out a Secluded Glen that only comes into play untapped in the unlikely (given the format) event they have a Faerie in their hand. But when you start insinuating that I don't even play Magic because of this, you just come across as a complete loon. I think I've had enough of your silliness in thinking you know what I'm talking about, at any rate. Start posting intelligently or stop posting.

If you play 1.5 and are staying current, then you would know that the lorwyn duels are becoming staple becuase many decks are starting to play the creature thats make them come in untapped. And, painlands are bad in 1.5 because of the many decks that focus on high amounts of damage early game. You would just be helping them along by burning yourself for a colored mana. I am posting intelligently, and I realize you are as well, so I think there is no reason for insults on that matter. I also noticed that you mentioned nothing of tarmargoyf in your post. Admitting that you need it to play green competativly in standard of you want to do well?

 

[Marril]

Not sure when I ever said painlands were great in Legacy. All I said is that one of my decks uses them. As well, as I said, pretty much all of my opponents don't care to run tribal creatures—or very many creatures at all, for that matter, outside of the odd decks that don't need Lorywn duals anyway.

As for the Tarmogoyf issue, I thought we settled it. Maybe in your haste to try and look like a big shot, you missed this fact? As I said, though, post intelligently or not at all.

 

[Regis_Neo]

You're almost certainly right about Damnation... but until it goes, Standard White is quite subpar. It's worrying for one card to have such an effect on a colour. Apparently White will be changing focus in coming sets... that should be interesting. There are calls to reprint 'geddon but that would just be insane.

Because I don't play Standard, I tend to think of White as WW too... apparently it doesn't cut it in the standard environment. Which is a shame really, given that White hasn't got anything else left which is decent and unique. As a splash colour though, it's still pretty cool.

Regis_Neo: http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/expansion/elvesvsgoblins (there are decklists at the bottom of the page). I would recommend looking around the M:TG site itself (though if you're starting off, the articles won't make much sense to you.)

Tarmogoyf debate: Yay, another thread bringing that one up. Again. And, on a non-M:TG site. (In case you're wondering, but yay I meant nay ).

Dual-lands: there are a few rather nice cards in Morningtide. Mutavault being one of them... otherwise, this discussion over who said what about dual-lands isn't exactly helping someone understand how to play M:TG. Regis_Neo, if you're trying to follow the conversation, it's basically about cards in recent sets which let you tap for more than one colour mana. Think maybe the holon special energies from EX Delta Species (FF, GL and WP), which let you do something similar in Pokémon. Obviously that would be ridiculously overpowered, so the cards have drawbacks. Different drawbacks have been used over the years, but really, it depends on whether any of the blocks in Standard feature a strong-multicolour theme. If it does, a good dual-land is a given. Otherwise, not so much. That's about all you really need to know, except maybe knowing why certain cards are good or not.

d

There we go, a bit more english here. Thanks again! The Elves/Goblins deck does sound rather fun, but it's not exactly currentish...but it does have a lot of neat stuff it sounds. I'll have to keep it in mind.

Also guys, please try not to debate over some weird, expensive cards that I'm not likely to get; remember, I'm only going to try this casually, I don't need expensive decks lol. Everyone plays the game differently, and I'm sure you can do just fine with or without X card here, and Y card there.

 

[Articjedi]

In that case keep it simple, just buy a theme deck, go through the commons bin at your local card shop for additional cards that you think you might need (go through the wizards site database for ideas, there's a ton of cards), then go from there.

 

[Marril]

Make sure to root through the uncommons bin too. You can occasionally find some really good deals (for instance, I had a run of finding $2+ uncommons for 50 cents each for about a week), and it'll help bring you up out of the "peasant Magic" bracket a skosh.

Also, see if you can find a card shop that has a "three for a dollar" rare bin. It might take a very long time to go through it all, but again you can sometimes find some really good rares for cheap that way.

 

[Articjedi]

Of course there's always ebay for the chase uncommons, which should still be fairly cheap.

 

[Lord Broly]

So what kinds of decks are they using these days? I'm thinking of using
either Red or Black or a Hybrid of the 2. Anything good in those colors?

 

[dogma]

...the problem with M:TG is that it's just such a vast and varied game, it's hard to be able to know where to start. There used to be some good articles on the official site, but don't know how helpful that is for someone to start off.

Once you know the basics, going through the sites, looking through uncommon bins and stuff is all good. But how do you know what you're looking for? (I'm still really bad at this, unless I know it's a specific card I need for a particular deck). And I don't really play to win - I much more enjoy pulling off a bizzarre combo, or doing random things. So for me, those bins are rather good because I can get cheap cards which do what I want them to do. For 'good' decks - those that win and that's the only thing you care ahout, the most powerful cards have a hefty price tag attached to them as well.

I would honestly get a starter deck and play with someone. The Elves and Goblin one has the advantage of having two decks at a higher player level, tweaked so that two people can play with them and learn something about the game.

Lord Broly: I haven't played M:TG in ages, so wouldn't have a clue. Never played Standard, although the official site should have decklists (have a look in M:TG forums too). http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mf183 (and the rest of the columns) are an analysis of the current metagame. Don't know what's hot in Vintage/Legacy - got grown-up things like work and business school to think about :frown:

 

[Articjedi]

In standard? I haven't really kept up since ravnica rotated.

 

[Lord Broly]

Ok so which format is which?

Like what is...

Type 1
Type 1.5
Type 2

 

[Marril]

Type 2 (or Standard) is basically Modified.
Type 1 (or Vintage) is basically Unlimited.
Type 1.5 (or Legacy) is Type 1, but with bannings instead of restrictions for powerful cards.
Type 1.X (or Extended) is basically a bigger Type 2 that includes more blocks.

 

[pat460]

Type 2 (or Standard) is basically Modified.
Type 1 (or Vintage) is basically Unlimited.
Type 1.5 (or Legacy) is Type 1, but with bannings instead of restrictions for powerful cards.
Type 1.X (or Extended) is basically a bigger Type 2 that includes more blocks.

Just to add to this:
type 1: most expensive

I dont recomend this format. WAAAAAAAYYY too much money required. I recommend types 1 or 1.5, because they have the most OP and arent rediculously high priced like 1.

 

[Marril]

Type 1 isn't really that expensive unless you want Power Nine cards, which a whole lot of players don't actually have. Really, once you've bought all the dual/fetch lands you need (as well as Force of Will if you're playing blue), Type 1/1.5 is moderately cheap. At any rate, Type 2 will wind up costing more in the long run, after a bunch of block rotations force you to keep buying new cards.

 

[Lord Broly]

Ok so what would I look for if I wanted to go for Red or Black?
And what kinds of decks would they be?

 

[pat460]

Type 1 isn't really that expensive unless you want Power Nine cards, which a whole lot of players don't actually have. Really, once you've bought all the dual/fetch lands you need (as well as Force of Will if you're playing blue), Type 1/1.5 is moderately cheap. At any rate, Type 2 will wind up costing more in the long run, after a bunch of block rotations force you to keep buying new cards.

If you dont buy power 9, your playing 1.5 lol

 

[dogma]

Type 1 isn't really that expensive unless you want Power Nine cards, which a whole lot of players don't actually have. Really, once you've bought all the dual/fetch lands you need (as well as Force of Will if you're playing blue), Type 1/1.5 is moderately cheap. At any rate, Type 2 will wind up costing more in the long run, after a bunch of block rotations force you to keep buying new cards.

I agree that if you're going to just build up one deck, then yeah, costs are reasonable, but if you're like me and want to try lots of different ideas, it does get expensive, even without power 9.

If you dont buy power 9, your playing 1.5 lol

Well, there are other very decent cards which are banned, but yeah, you kinda have a point :tongue:

Ok so what would I look for if I wanted to go for Red or Black?
And what kinds of decks would they be?

Well as I don't play standard, I can only repeat the colour breakdown I gave in an earlier post:

Red - Burn
Black Discard/Sacrifice for effect X. Look around M:TG sites (including the official one)