How to make a deck most invulnerable as possible against E.R

Discussion in 'Cards: Strategy and Rulings Discussion' started by guilleg33, Aug 1, 2016.

  1. guilleg33

    guilleg33 New Member

    This is a big deal. I play old formats only and i have this prolem any time y play with my friends. All decks shows a big weakness against energy removal or super energy removal.

    How can i build my deck stronger against those annoying trainers? I need another soution apart of No removal gym. No removal gym is an unfair card, there must be another solution.


    FREAKAZOID175 Member

    Energy Removal itself is a pretty cheap card. No Removal Gym is literally designed to balance Energy Removal's effect, and is probably your best and most "fair" option.

    The only other options off the top of my head would be to run either Dark Vileplume and prevent both players from playing any Trainer cards, or Chaos Gym to make the game, well, chaotic!
  3. BJJ763

    BJJ763 Trading Mod Supervisor Staff Member Trader Feedback Mod

    Off to a more appropriate forum.
  4. guilleg33

    guilleg33 New Member

    i see... so stadium cards are the most efficient way to prevent them... but i insist: there must be another way to counter them. not the card itself but the card's effect. Low attack cost, or poison/burn. A way to cause damage even if your pokemon is short of energy. Maybe
  5. MegaVelocibot

    MegaVelocibot <a href="

    Zero-Energy attackers were not a thing until Diamond and Pearl. if I remember correctly. The Team Rocket's set's Dark Gloom can Confuse their Active Pokemon 50% of the time (and yours the other 50%), Drowzee does the same for Sleep, and Recycle Energy will give you reusable Special Energy cards.

    Then, there's Slowking...
  6. guilleg33

    guilleg33 New Member

    oh slowking... its maybe one of the most broken cards from all time in my opinion.

    i have a grass-type deck healing archetype, something like an "improved" Venucenter. With slowking... and even with slowking its not safe at all against energy removal though. No removal gym or dark vileplume are good but they affect yourself....
  7. MegaVelocibot

    MegaVelocibot <a href="

    Ah, so you wanted a one-sided monopoly on Energy Removal cards? Could try Muk to disable your own Pokemon Power, then something to pull it out of play. Super Scoop Up from Neo Genesis, or Scoop Up with a Pokemon-recycling card like Recycle for the discarded Muk.
  8. ShadowCard

    ShadowCard Active Member

    Could be why even in Standard format, with pokemon requiring less energy to do heavy damage, we still do not see these cards reprinted in these forms. Everything is a coin flip or restricted in what it removes.

    I take the opposite opinion: No Removal Gym is not strong enough. Any player using SER will be prepared and willing to discard 2 cards to set you back 2 turns. If you are playing a format where (S)ER are legal, Item Finder is probably legal as well as NGR, Trash Exchange, and Time Capsule so the loss of 2 cards isn't as huge of a set back as it appears. It is equivalent to using Ultra Ball, discarding your lone supporter, then playing VS Seeker to get it back. Some Powers and attackd also make the discard beneficial, like Typhlosion's Fire Recharge or Feraligatr's Riptide. Dark Slowbro's Reel In is an option but unlikely to see play.

    If the card does not outright prevent the removal, it doesn't hinder it enough. Ecogym gets you the energy back but you're still 2+ turns set back. Your options are Chaos Gym and Slowing's Power, Mind Games. Ecogym looks better if you are trying to save your Dark and Metal energy.

    Besides that, you could "deal with it" by playing cards that are not hurt by removal. Options off the top pf my head:
    a) Big Basic Pokemom - These are the Haymaker pokemon: Hitmonchan, Electabuzz, Magmar (Fossil), Lapras (Fossil), and Scyther (Jungle). Also Erika's Dratini even though it isn't so big. All don't need more than 2 energy cards for GOOD attacks. Hitmonchan is the exception but F for 20 is good considering so many basics have 40-50 hp. Ecogym should be preferred here because it lets you get your Rainbow energy back if removed.
    b) Baby Pokemon - Elekid doesn't need energy to do 20 damage on a flip; Magby for 1 energy does 10 damage and shuts off Powers; Tyrogue for 1 energy does 30 damage on a flip. Stadium choice doesn't matter so much here.
    c) 3 Pokemon in Neo Revelation have the Legendary Body Power that says Removal doesn't affect them while they are active. No Removal Gym or Chaos Gym preferred here to protect benched pokemon
    d) Play Raindance - 4-1-4 Blastoise, some Lapras and Ditto. Use Ecogym. When they use Removal, Raindance the energy back into play and keep going.
    e) Play Feraligatr - Energy in the discard is exactly what Feraligatr likes! They're just helping you do more damage. You still need to keep 3 water energy on it though maybe use the Totodile with Rage and have a Recall ready. So, No Removal Gym is probably the way to go here because this deck is heavy on the trainers.
    f) Play KingdraCenter - Use Genetic Memory to Mud Slap all day. Use Recycle Energy so it doesn't matter if they remove it. In fact, play Pokemon Center to heal Kingdra and remove your energy yourself! (re-attach it before you attack) You don't need a stadium to protect you from removal here so you're probably playing some other stadium like Broken Ground Gym or Rocket's Minefield Gym to trap the opponent's active in place or to soften up new bench pokemon so you can target them with Mud Slap.

    You could try a deck I think was called Kabulix. Use Steelix with the Onix with Rage. 2 Fighting energy, just Tackle and heal. They aren't going to OHKO you without a fire pokemon. Then, if you have enough damage, attach a Recall and Rage. If they have a fire pokemon? Kabutops (Neo Discovery) is water type. Attack a F and Slash for 20x2 or go for the Hydrocutter flip. Kabutops is weak to grass, which Steelix is resistant to, so this deck guards its weaknesses very well, has high hp pokemon that are easy to heal, and the attacks cost 1-2 energy so removal is less effective. If removal does get the better of you for a few turns, you're healing so you can take it.

    Personally, I like Erika and Sabrina pokemon in to counter removal because her pokemon are low-energy. They are usually low damage but do different things. I like Erika's Gloom to Dream Dance or Vile Smell, and then discard a Recycle Energy with Celadon City Gym to remove the special condition and then do it again. Unfortunately, both Erika and Sabrina pokemon usually have low hp as well. Blaine can accelerate energy into play both with his trainer and with his Growlithe.

    Sabrina's Psychic Control could give you access to your opponent's removal but I don't see that deterring them from using their own. It just enables you to possibly play more than you would normally be allowed to play.

    I used Pokepedia to make sure I got all this card info correct.
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2016
  9. guilleg33

    guilleg33 New Member

    ecogym will not help in case of removaling, because the card says "energy you may discard in attacks..." so i assume that if the opponent takes it out form a pokemon with a trainer, you canĀ“t return it to your hand using ecogym...

    I dont know, Rain dance is maybe the perfect example of the perfect old deck, its preety unbeteable as Do the wave. But if you compare with current deck, there have nothing to do. The best option is get the no removal gym, but i find preety unfair get a no removal gym per deck.
  10. ShadowCard

    ShadowCard Active Member

    In context of the decks, Rain dance and Haymaker were there at the same time as (S)ER and those pokemon were present before No Removal Gym so they would have had to dealt with it. You're right that Wigglytuff/Muk would have had to deal with it too but I don't know how they would have done so.

    Feraligatr became popular during a time when removal was not in format.

    KingdraCenter and Kabulix were also popular during a time when removal was not as crippling. Kabulix was concerned about matching weakness/resistance of popular decks. KindgraCenter was about being big and digging in its heels.

    Prediction: once you introduce No Removal Gym in your decks, your opponents will quickly think around it with their own stadiums or relying more of Item Finder, NGR, and Time Capsule.

    It covers removal trainers.
  11. MegaVelocibot

    MegaVelocibot <a href="

    Energy Absorption on Mewtwo (Promo) was also useful in times of heavy S/ER.
  12. guilleg33

    guilleg33 New Member

    wow, if ecogym covers trainer its just ridiculus. I have another deck, 100% thunder with many recoil and its the only deck i play ecogym but in previous matches i used that deck, i didnt take in account removal in the effect of ecogym. Its just too good.
  13. MegaVelocibot

    MegaVelocibot <a href="

    Ecogym indeed covers Trainers.
  14. vaporeon

    vaporeon Moderator

    To be honest, the best way to avoid it is to just play in Standard. You won't have to worry about unfair cards. If you must insist on playing in Unlimited, you can make a rule where no one can play Energy Removals. Another thing you can do is just play Blastoise or like cards.

    Base Set days of Pokemon were really dark times. The Wild West. I don't know the card pool you have available to you but if you don't play Standard, I can say for sure you'll have a much more fun time with the game.
  15. ShadowCard

    ShadowCard Active Member

    Surely, you jest! :rolleyes:
  16. MegaVelocibot

    MegaVelocibot <a href="

    Instead of worrying about unfair cards, you will simply know they are there.

    Oh, come now, Darkness didn't come around until the Neo era.

    Jesting aside, I preferred the pre-Neo game environment. Pokemon often did not get Knocked Out every turn, and there was a greater amount of time for the board state to develop. It certainly had its weaknesses, but for what it's worth, I can appreciate the effort being put into trying to find solutions to these problems.

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