Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

illegal attacks/steps during a turn, pt. 2

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Ledyba said:
As a Pokemom who is learning the game and makes LOTS of mistakes and forgets the simplest of things - I made a personal choice (not knowing anything about this ruling) to not ask to replay a mistake that I caught or an opponent kindly pointed out to me and offered to allow even when I forgot to draw my card.
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Thanks for the feedback. :thumb:
Good to hear from the newer players. It's hard to look at the game from new eyes after being around for a while.

Just a note, drawing a card at the beginning of your turn is a mandatory action and you have to do it. It can't be forgotten. It may be, if you miss it until the end of your turn, that you don't get to use that card until your next turn. But draw it you must. There are cases where it is to a player's advantage to "forget" to draw a card. They may be running low on cards in their deck. Or they may want to keep their hand size down to impact some game effect that depends on hand size.
In any case, it is different than forgetting to do an optional action and has to be done. If it is realized later, then the card needs to be drawn then.
 
I have a question about a different part of the original post, the 'if an action is mandatory part'.
I remember reading the OP last year and we have used the rule-of-thumb successfully at home.

Now it's a little tougher at league, with new players misplaying left and right. When is it too late
to go back and do mandatory actions? I can see maybe 'draw a card' should be resolved that turn
if it is remembered, then it 'expires'. Maybe a backup for burn flips lasts the duration of the turn.
But it seems maybe 'forgot to draw a prize' is good for practically the duration of the game if it
can clearly be established the prize was forgotton. I'm not looking for hard and fast rulings here,
but does anyone have guidelines for these?
 
a turn, maybe two if it can be determined for certain.
Past that it kind of "expires".
Although something like drawing prizes should always be corrected if possible no matter how far back.
 
Oh, one more, while I got y'all here. :rolleyes:

Someone mentioned rules from other games, and immediately the Chess rule came to mind. Is it
true that once you drop the card, it is played? Is this a guideline?

Can I "attach energy....no...here instead" as long as I didn't let loose of the card? I think probably so?

Can I "Warp Point...no...nevermind" if I don't drop the card? I think probably not, since verbal declarations
carry weight?
 
let go = played is a guideline as far as I'm aware. Judges vary in how strict they are with that one.

The best advice I can give is that you as an individual should make your plays as though let go = played was the rule. Don't infer the opposite that because you have not let go then a card isn't yet played. Think, communicate, then Do.

The reason why let go = played is a guideline is because unless the judge sees what happened it can too easily turn into a he-said-she-said, in addition to let go = played being used by rules-lawyers and as a slow play tactic. Or worse as a means of entrapment: 'do you know what this card does?'
 
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For me Ledyba, that's a normal way of running league. I make announcements all the time. Sure, people come to league to play - occasionally even I get to play, but when there are things that the players need to know, I inform and educate them. That's what makes a strong league. I realize not all league leaders or league owners have the same time schedule, or possibly aren't that good with teaching others, but anyone can share this with others - even you for example. As a parent, you need to teach your children, that's more or less a given, but whenever you see such a situation comes up in league, feel free to help others out as well. You'll get a good reputation as a person looking out for others, and you'll earn their respect as well.
 
For those asking for this to be put in the Compendium LvX...... it already is!

Here it is:
Once you have declared an attack, you cannot leave the attack step without your opponent's permission. If you declare an "illegal" attack (e.g., you don't have the proper energy required to perform the attack), you may ask your opponent's permission to back out of the attack step. If he or she says "yes", you can go back and take any actions that you could have taken prior to the attack step. If he or she says "no", you may either select an attack that is legal or you may pass. (Mar 14, 2007 POP Announcement, POP Professor Forums; Mar 15, 2007 PUI Rules Team)
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It is in the middle of the "*Attacks in General" section found here: http://compendium.pokegym.net/compendium-lvx.html#16
 
But it still is not rock solid on how the question is to be answered when asked to a judge, which is a GREAT part of the discussion here.

Vince
 
stuff like this I fence sit a bit. I'll say something like "I can tell you what the rule is without having to make a rulling. Would you like me to do that?"

So what happens when I have to get off the fence? Easy. As a judge I can't enforce a take back. But while on the fence I can most certainly allow them.
 
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As a general rule, when I'm called over about rewinding some game action, I always inform the players that since the action was legal and was taken, I cannot rewind it, however the opponent has the option to allow it.
I'm do not offer advice about whether they should or not. I just state what their options are.


I do this for Entering the Attack Phase and I do it for energy placements that they want to take back.

I do not feel I am offering advice, merely making players aware of options.
 
I do not feel it is up to the judge to decide how the players choose their moves. If the judge as Steve A. PokeDaddy posted initially replys by going through the game state and clarifying with the players where they are at, stating the ruling, verbatum as it is in PokePop's post from the compendium, etc. it is then up to the player to choose their moves. If player A attacks illegally and player B chooses to say no, then it is no and player A has to live with that, and for that matter, so does player B. Just as with any other move made during the course of the game, it is the player who is playing the game, not the judge. The judge is not playing the game, therefore should NOT be telling the players what to do and not do. I understand some of the concerns with players feeling guilty for saying no, but that is part of the game and life for that matter. We all have to learn to be able to say no and accept no for an answer in life. My son has been on both sides of the table with this issue. It is not easy to swallow when the opponent attacks, doesn't have the needed energy to maybe make a move that will give them the game and then lose the game because of it, maybe costing them a prize, a trip, and award, but it happens. We all make mistakes and have to live with them. They must learn that it is part of the game. I feel that once a judge steps in and starts telling players that they should give players take backs etc. for subjective reasons, then they are interfering with the legitimacy of the game. For a judge to become subjective about a players game in this manner leads to inconsistency in judging. It then becomes too personal. I feel it is not the judge's job to do this. I feel they should be guiding the players by clarifying their game state, re-stating the rules as necessary, getting acknowledgement from the players that they understand, answer question about the rule if necessary, show the rule in writing, and then let the players decide what they will do.

I saw this scenerio this past weekend, and Steve A worked it fabulously. I'm not saying it is easy....but it has to be consistent!! I strongly feel this should not be a matter for a judge to choose whether the player should or should not allow the take back or anything else for that matter. It's the players who are playing the game who should be making the choices not the judge!
 
mumsascrappa: I don't think I saw a single judge or other person say that the judge should encourage a player to give a takeback. At most, the discussion is between making them aware of the choice or not making them aware.
Did I miss someone's post that advocates pushing the takeback?
 
Thanks PokePop.

Just a note, drawing a card at the beginning of your turn is a mandatory action and you have to do it. It can't be forgotten. It may be, if you miss it until the end of your turn, that you don't get to use that card until your next turn. But draw it you must. There are cases where it is to a player's advantage to "forget" to draw a card. They may be running low on cards in their deck. Or they may want to keep their hand size down to impact some game effect that depends on hand size.

In any case, it is different than forgetting to do an optional action and has to be done. If it is realized later, then the card needs to be drawn then.
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This is exactly why I'm glad to know that there is a ruling on this matter. I had run into this situation - I had forgotten to draw at the beginning of my turn - when I realized it just as I had started to say "I will attack with... oh crud, I forgot to draw." I needed an energy card to use a different attack on the card and had hoped to draw one - that's how I knew I hadn't drawn yet.

My opponent allowed me to do so at that point in the game and the card I drew completely changed the nature of my ability to play that turn.

My opponent was willing to allow the do-over. I had to make a choice - if I took the do-over I could now evolve my active pokemon. Doing so would allow me to KO their active pokemon and dominate the rest of the game which was near the end- My win- Or choose in the same SofG to continue my interupted "I will attack with..." to it's orginial conclusion knowing that my Pokemon (that I could now save by evolving, etc) would get KO'd instead.

I chose to do the orginial attack and get KO'd. I lost the game. Why? My mistake - I need to learn to do things in order - we don't forget hard lessons!

As an adult, as a parent I lead by example. I was playing a 9 year old. How else do I teach her or any child SofG rather than how to play cut-thoat or if I ever say "yes, in the SofG, I'll get my tush kicked - don't trust it - always say no!".

Also, since there was time, I reconstructed those last few hands and showed my opponent how things could have been differnet - IF I had played correctly to begin with. That was a real attention getter for them too! I don't mind saying I was "wrong" in front of my kid or other kids and correcting myself. How else do they learn how to self correct?

It was then that I personally decided not to "do" do-overs or draw cards I forgot. But now I know I have to draw a card if I forget to do so and then remember or I'm reminded to do so.

THOUGHT: If I find myself in this situation again - (I don't forget to draw very much anymore) I think when I draw my card that I'll leave it face down on the table behind my bench so it won't complicate finishing my turn. After finishing my turn then I will add it to my hand and see what I missed! At least at league level.

PERSONAL OPINION: Now, "forgetting to draw" to keep your hand low for the effect of a card to work - etc - I'm sorry - that's plain cheating in my book. I understand making the cards "work together" but there is a certain order or sequence that is suppose to naturally occur not one that occurs through maniputlated methods.

I understand proving it was deliberately done maybe next to impossible. However, I've found that folks who do things like this do them over and over and a pattern can eventually be established and it can be stopped. We have a few in our league with just such a reputation - they are constantly monitored.

Thanks again,
Ledyba
 
Ledyba said:
THOUGHT: If I find myself in this situation again - (I don't forget to draw very much anymore) I think when I draw my card that I'll leave it face down on the table behind my bench so it won't complicate finishing my turn. After finishing my turn then I will add it to my hand and see what I missed! At least at league level.
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That would be a good way to handle it.
 
Personally I remember the days when pokemon wasn't so cut throat. It was more a game for kids to learn and have fun, and if a game came around where an "illegal attack" was made you just took it with a grain of salt and continued your turn as if no attack was made.
This phase junk is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. Pokemon has one turn, where you can do all these things. Allowing the player the liberty to conduct those specific things in his/her turn is how the game was first started. Now you want to change it, get it more technical, more strict. It's like Po-ke-oh now. And with all the restrictions and guidelines yu-gi-oh made the game died out pretty quick. Just trying to point out where I think the game is heading.
 
skarmory777 said:
Personally I remember the days when pokemon wasn't so cut throat. It was more a game for kids to learn and have fun, and if a game came around where an "illegal attack" was made you just took it with a grain of salt and continued your turn as if no attack was made.
This phase junk is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. Pokemon has one turn, where you can do all these things. Allowing the player the liberty to conduct those specific things in his/her turn is how the game was first started. Now you want to change it, get it more technical, more strict. It's like Po-ke-oh now. And with all the restrictions and guidelines yu-gi-oh made the game died out pretty quick. Just trying to point out where I think the game is heading.
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Skarmory777 -

Do you judge?

If you do, how do you respond to a player who raises their hand, calls for a judge and says: "My opponent just declared an illegal attack? What happens now?" Now let's just say that the event is Pokemon US Nationals.... What would you do?
 
Ledyba, good posts! Like PokePop said, sometimes we forget about the newer players and fail to see things through their eyes.

skarmory777, I respectfully disagree. Phases are essential to Pokemon. Like PokeDaddy suggests, it makes judging more straighforward.

Certainly, judges should NOT encourage take-backs. That violates at least two judging ethics - 1) don't give advice, and 2) don't encourage side-stepping the rules.

PokePop, I think what's needed is a section in the official POP Tournament Rules about take-backs in general, perhaps in the SOTG section. But then again, that's kind of a paradox because take-backs side-step the rules.

I read SOTG much like Ledyba. You live and learn from your mistakes. You don't rely on the tender hearts of your opponents to help you win.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

PokePop said:
As a general rule, when I'm called over about rewinding some game action, I always inform the players that since the action was legal and was taken, I cannot rewind it, however the opponent has the option to allow it.
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That's close to what I do. If I'm asked, "Can we rewind?", I ask why. If the response is, "because my opponent gave me a take-back," I say "yes," and then verify that the rewind is valid and that if any rules were violated, I consider assessing a penalty.

At no point do I offer a take-back as an option when called to rule, UNLESS the players bring up the option. That's where we're a bit different.

And I agree Mike, offering the take-back option, in the current state of the rules, is NOT giving advice. I just personally feel that offering the take-back option is something judges shouldn't get involved with. JMO.
 
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Yeah, I judged. I still have the ability to, but I've been focusing more on playing. I still think these phases are pretty dumb.
 
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