Important ruling discussion.

Discussion in 'Cards: Strategy and Rulings Discussion' started by BANGINBOX, Mar 21, 2004.

  1. BANGINBOX

    BANGINBOX New Member

    hey,

    I would like to have these questions answered befor the next tournament. I really haven't seen any of the following answered before.

    1) could I strike and run for "zero" even though I have room on my bench? Under this same ruling would come this question.... If I use dual ball and flip 2 heads, do I have to search for pokemon for the empty spaces on my bench?

    my guess on both would be NO. "up to" refers to 1 and above. also, with dual ball that would be considered "discarding" your trainer.

    2)could I use delcatty's "Energy Draw" power to draw Zero? This is very important to the functionablity of some Blaze decks.

    My guess would be NO. again, "up to" refers to 1 and above.

    3) If I have a Wynaut that is paralyzed with 4 damage counters on it. Could I still use its "poke-power" to evolve into wobbuffet and remove all damage counters?

    My guess is NO. To my understanding ALL poke-POWERS get shut down by special conditions.

    could someone please help me with these.
    jimmy
     
  2. yoshi1001

    yoshi1001 New Member

    3) Only if the power says it stops working.
     
  3. Cyrus

    Cyrus Iron Chef - Master Emeritus

    Dunsparce: I don't know if "Up to" means 0 and above (0's a number too!), or 1 and above. I really don't know, but you might be able to just switch out with it, I suppose. I mean, there's always the technicality of "I don't have anymore basics in my deck".

    Dual Ball: Yes, you would HAVE to search for every heads you get, at least by the TAM printing. Again, there's always the possibility of not having any in your deck, so I'm not entirely sure if you'd just leave the card in your hand, or discard it.

    Delcatty: See Dunsparce.

    Wynaut: You couldn't evolve.
     
  4. BJJ763

    BJJ763 Trading Mod Supervisor Staff Member Trader Feedback Mod

    And i would allow 0 to be a valid "up to" amount.
     
  5. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    BJJ's got it.
    Zero is a valid number for all "up to" effects.
    If it says search for each heads, you have to search for each heads. No dumping.
     
  6. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    Regarding Dunsparce, can you search your deck and play none?

    In a situation where time is critical and you have a full bench, I'd say that a Strike and Run attack where you choose to search your deck (merely to see what you have left) might be viewed as Stalling by some judges, especially if you did it time-after-time just to draw out the time.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Dual Ball places the basics into your hand, not your bench. Also, regarding this card, I'd think that if you get 2 heads AND there are at least 2 basics, you'd have to get them both. But, if there's only one, you can retrieve only it (like the ruling about Bill where there's only 1 card left). Furthermore, if it's been shown that there are NO basics left in your deck (ie., a previous Fast Ball revealed there are NO basics left in your deck), then you COULDN'T even play a Dual Ball because the effect CAN'T be achieved (because there's a current ruling that prevents attempted actions that won't produce the desired effect).

    Anyway, I see some contraversy in the current ruling that forbids "dumping" cards when no desired effect is achieved. I'd say that dumping an energy card for Energy Draw, then choosing to draw 0 cards could easily fall into this "no dumping" ruling. I say that in order to be consistant in the rulings, either:

    1. The "up to X" ruling is changed to "1 up to X."

    or

    2. The "no dumping" ruling is changed to allow dumping if you can pay the costs, although dumping is usually the COST. Many other TCGs (that have action payment costs) allow cost-payment-dumping with the option NOT to take the effect. Nevertheless, that's a more advanced strategy that could make Pokemon more complicated for it's youthful-intended customers.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2004
  7. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    No, the dumping that is not allowed is where you are told to do something, not just given a choice to do something.

    "Up to" texts give a lot of choice in how much of something you get and zero is included in that choice.

    Where dumping is forbidden is where you are told to get a specific (non-zero) amount and trying to choose zero.

    I don't see any discrepancy in these two classes.
     
  8. Clefable73

    Clefable73 New Member

    Are the answers that people coming up with in this post from the compendium or are they just figuring on these rulings. Sometimes unless it says so directly in the compendium judges wary on the side of caution. If at all possible could you reference your answers, this is a very important question.
     
  9. Adv1sor

    Adv1sor New Member

    Take a look at this post:
    http://www.pokegym.net/showthread.php?t=3916

    Here, there are rulings on throwing away trainer cards.

    The general theme seems to be that you have to have a chance of success or at least a valid target.

    So, in answer to your questions, I would say,

    I say that you do have to search in each case but you don’t have to find any basic pokemon, even if there are basics in your deck.


    I say that you can draw zero cards. It says, “up to 3.”

    I would say that you can evolve into woffuffet using Wyanaut’s power since it doesn’t say that it is shut off when Wyanaut is paralyzed.

    My two cents worth, along with the reference.
     
  10. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    There are specific answers to questions about some Trainers that you can find in the Compendium EX that support these answers, but my answers come specifically from hours-long discussions of these issues with MT Jimmer and his discussions with and directives from USA TCG General Manager Kenji Okubo.

    PUSA has specifically said that you cannot just dump any Trainer because you want to get rid of it and have also specifically said that "up to #" includes 0 as a valid choice.

    People need to be able to extrapolate these kinds of rulings.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2004
  11. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator


    Correct except that Dual Ball does not have the "up to" text, so you have to do what it says, if you can.
     
  12. Adv1sor

    Adv1sor New Member

    Have we had this conversation once before? :)

    The text says search your deck. I do not believe that you are compelled to find anything.
     
  13. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    Wrong. It also says show it to your opponent and put it into your hand.
    You can't 'pretend' to not find anything.
    If you do, you're cheating and if an Opponent calls a Judge and finds that there is a Basic in your deck, you could get penalized.
     
  14. Adv1sor

    Adv1sor New Member

    Energy Search is worded the same way PokePop.

    This doesn't quite get to the question though. Can, "don't find any" = "none to be found?"
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2004
  15. NoPoke

    NoPoke New Member

    You can play Dual Ball even if you KNOW it will FAIL.

    However,

    if you play Dual Ball and there IS a basic in your deck then you MUST take a basic.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2004
  16. BJJ763

    BJJ763 Trading Mod Supervisor Staff Member Trader Feedback Mod

    That's me - master of back to back Tails....
     
  17. Adv1sor

    Adv1sor New Member

    Back to what Clefable73 posted in this thread...
     
  18. NoPoke

    NoPoke New Member

    LOL tell me about it... I picked up quite a reputation as master-of-tails when playing Star Wars TCG. (At UK Nationals a couple of years back I missed completely with 15 dice rolls :( )

    That said I did roll four heads for a win at Comic Con last year ;)
     
  19. NoPoke

    NoPoke New Member

    == ENERGY SEARCH (Fossil; Expedition; EX:Ruby/Sapphire)

    Q. If you use an Energy Search and don't find any Basic Energy, do you still discard the Energy Search?
    A. Yes, you would still discard it. (Jan 15, 2004 PUI Rules Team)

    Q. If you use an Energy Search and don't find any Basic Energy, can you then play another Energy Search even though you know it will fail?
    A. Yes, you can search for energy cards even if you know you won't find them. They exist as legal cards, therefore they can be searched for. (Jan 15, 2004 PUI Rules Team; Jan 22, 2004 PUI Rules Team)

    == FAST BALL (Skyridge)

    Q. When using Fast Ball, if the very first card you turn up is an evolution, do you still have to shuffle your deck?
    A. If FastBall pulls an Evolution Card as the first revealed card, the deck is not shuffled as there are no as there are no "other revealed cards" to shuffle back in. (Jan 15, 2004 PUI Rules Team)

    == ENERGY RECYCLE SYSTEM (EX:Dragon)

    Q. With Energy Recycle System, do you have to shuffle 3 energies in or can you do only 2? Or what happens if you only have 2 in your discard pile; can you shuffle the two in or not? The card doesnt say "up to" like some other cards do.
    A. Well, since it does not say "up to", it's either shuffle in exactly 3 Basic energies or you can put 1 Basic energy into your hand. If you only have 2 Basic energies in the discard pile, then 1 to your hand is the only option available. (Jan 22, 2004 PUI Rules Team)

    == POTION (Base Set; Expedition; EX:Ruby/Sapphire)

    Q. The Expedition and Ruby/Sapphire versions of Potion says "remove 2 damage counters", but the original version said "remove *UP TO* 2 damage counters". Which way should we play the card?
    A. You can only play Potion if you have 1 or more damage counters on that Pokemon. Zero counters will not allow you to use Potion. (Jan 15, 2004 PUI Rules Team; Jan 22, 2004 PUI Rules Team)


    and an older ruling that maybe argues the opposite case....

    == SLEIGHT OF HAND (Sabrina's Mr. Mime - Gym: Heroes Expansion)

    Q. Say I'm using Sabrina's Mr. Mime Sleight of Hand, I shuffle 3 cards from my hand into the deck. I search for 3 basic energy cards. When I search, what happens if there isn't 3 basic energy cards. Do I only get the number of basic energy cards left?
    A. That's correct. (Apr 26, 2001 WotC Chat, Q104)

    Q. Sabrina's Mr. Mime's Sleight of Hand attack reads "Choose up to three cards from your hand and put them on top of your deck. Then search your deck for that many basic Energy cards. Show these cards to your opponent, then put them your hand. Shuffle your deck afterwards." Can we simply keep putting cards back into our deck and not draw energy if there is none left?
    A. No you cannot, but we will check that answer with R&D first. (Aug 24, 2000 WotC Chat, Q32)

    Personally I'd get this one wrong as I'd say that you can use the attack even if you know there are no basics in the deck. Maybe R&D forgot and never got back to TC?
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2004
  20. Prime

    Prime Content Developer<br>Blog Admin<br>Contest Host

    Tell me this, how is your opponent to know that there is a basic energy or pokemon in your deck with you search for it? If you search and tell them you don't have any, they can't take apart your deck and make sure you don't. So you flip two heads with dual ball, just tell your opponent that there isn't a basic left in your deck and they cannot do anything. Now a pickle would happen if later on, you layed one down, but you could always say you had that in your hand.

    Okay, so if you don't have to get them out if you search for them, why even search?
     

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