Infinity Engine

Discussion in 'Deck Help and Strategy' started by Dendrobatida, Oct 11, 2006.

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  1. Dendrobatida

    Dendrobatida New Member

    I'd like to present several versions of a deck engine I've been tinkering with, one that is legal now, and one that will be legal when the next set is released. You'll see the basic strategy is the same, though the execution of the combo differs slightly. What I'm mostly interested in is seeing what everyone here thinks would be the ideal hitter for the second version of the deck.

    Here's the basic concept: You hit really hard every turn , and never get knocked out. In fact, unless your opponent can do more than 110 damage in one turn, they will, hopefully, never take a prize.

    First, the currently-legal list:

    2 pidgey d
    2 pidgeotto d
    2 pidgeot POP2
    2 spearow
    2 fearow d
    2 wingull
    2 pelipper d
    2 Rayquaza d (power blow)
    2 Mewtwo d
    1 Rayquaza *
    4 Holon's Castform
    Total: 23

    3 Holon Mentor
    4 transciever
    2 scientist
    1 adventurer
    4 TV reporter/Bill's Maintenance/etc.
    4 Celio's Network
    3 Briney
    4 windstorm
    Total: 25

    12 Lightning Energy
    Total: 12

    TOTAL: 60

    By first seeking out your fearow d, you should be able to set up fairly quickly. Your bench should consist of a pidgeot, a pelipper, and a fearow. The active will be rayquaza d (there is nothing better in the format currently that works here. Next format, though...well, keep reading...) . Load energy onto that rayquaza to your heart's content. Each time it takes damage, drop another one on the bench, drop the mewtwo, trans the energy to the new one, and use pelipper to pull back the damaged one. Activate pidgeot. Pick up the damaged rayquaza, and stick it into the deck. Grab it again with fearow for the next turn, and attack with the newly activated rayquaza. When you get an opportunity, pick up the mewtwo d. The briney's will help with this if you get behind a turn. Using this repetition, you should be able to maintain a consistent battery of refreshed rayquazas.

    They are, however, more vulnerable than you'd like, and the mewtwo is not the ideal way to manipulate the energy. All of that will come in the next format, with the real infinity engine. That looks like this:

    4 Mareep d (or 3 in rayquaza version)
    3 Flaafy d (2 in rayquaza version)
    2 Ampharos d (Unnecessary in the rayquaza -ex d version, which then opens up space for trainers)
    2 Ampharos (UF)
    2 wingull
    2 pelipper d
    2 spearow
    2 fearow d
    2 pidgey d
    1 pidgeotto d
    2 pidgeot (POP2)
    3 Ho-oh ex. Or rayquaza -ex d. Or (Your input here. It can be any high-hp basic)
    Total: 27

    2 Holon Mentor
    4 transceiver
    2 scientist
    2 adventurer
    4 Celio's Network
    3 Rare Candy
    4 Windstorm
    2 Copycat/Steven's/etc. (draw of your choice)
    Total: 23

    2 Fire
    2 Water
    2 Grass
    2 Fighting
    2 Electric
    (for Ho-oh)

    OR

    10 lightning
    (for rayquaza)
    Total: 10
    TOTAL: 60

    Again, fearow will be vital to setting up adequately. Fortunately, since you'll be essentially brineying something each turn, you have a few turns to stall before you get going. Here, your bench, which will be tight, will have 2 ampharos (1 of each type), the pelipper, the fearow, and the pop2 pidgeot. Your active will be your main attacker. Let's say it's the ho-oh -ex version. You have 3 basic energy on there, for 70 damage a turn. Not bad. Opponent hits you for 100. You swap ho-oh down with pelipper, activating pidgeot. Transfer the energy from ho-oh to pidgeot. Pidgeot away the ho-oh. Grab it again with fearow (it's delta, because of the ampharos d), and retreat pidgeot. Transfer the energy back up to ho-oh, attach another, and hit for 90. Repeat (Didja get all that?).

    With rayquaza -ex d, you do not need the delta ampharos, since fearow can grab it anyway. This frees up a good amount of space, both in the deck and in the bench. It does not have the damage ceiling ho-oh does, but it also doesn't have a weakness, and can hit the bench.

    A third option in the ampharos d version would be to run three major ex'es, perhaps one ho-oh, one rayquaza, and one (insert additional type here, maybe a mew -ex...to diversify types). That way, you could address various weaknesses you might encounter, fearowing for the appropriate pokemon each time.

    About 20 test runs or so of the new version (with proxies) has it set up completely around turn 4 or so (3 with the rayquaza ex version...thank god for fearow). From there, it's mighty hard to beat. It's obvious weaknesses are things that hurt/shut down powers and things that mess with the bench. Pelipper offers that free retreat, though, and pidgeot can cure what ails any pokemon you've got out there (hard to rebuild if you have to recycle the amphy though).

    Any suggestions for the deck overall, or more specifically alternatives to ho-oh, rayquaza -ex d, etc. are super-duper welcome. Feel free to tinker with it, and playtest it. Because of the myriad steps during each turn, the need to manage your energies, the potential in the ampharos d version to use almost any pokemon you'd like, and the complexity of the combination, it's a boatload of fun to play. Competitive? We'll see.

    I'm also working on (and would love input on) a version that runs fossils, jolteon -ex, and no energy. That'd be more for fun, but since fossils count as delta pokemon while in play, pelipper can swap them. (I haven't asked, but I'll betcha fearow can't grab them from the deck).

    Cheers,

    Jake/Dendro
     
  2. bulbasnore

    bulbasnore Administrator Staff Member

    Might be fun to try Crawdaunt EX, a stage 1 compromise between Ray EX, Basic, & Amphy Stage 2, since we're going for Powers here, provides a nice defensive move, and still has the 'attack with stored energy' theme.

    Good to see those Windstorm. Who will have 3/3 Cessation/Mysterious?:eek:

    I think you're right about the Fossils, they Body that makes them ∂ Pokémon in the deck, applies to, well, Pokémon, and, as you are saying, Fossils in the deck are Trainers. Worth asking though, you never know when PCL has an exception.
     
  3. Dendrobatida

    Dendrobatida New Member

    Crawdaunt has the flashy energy conservation goodness attack, but being a non-delta stage one, it needs the ampharos d to allow fearow to regrab it each turn (that's critical for the recycling part) and for pelipper to swap it out, and it it needs to be basic to not compromise hitting each turn. A stage one would miasma (can I use that as a verb? I just did!) the deck, at least on (my) paper. Haven't tested it yet, though. Where would you find the space for the line?

    Oh, also, note that in the ampharos d version, you really need only one copy of your main hitter. Above I have 3 ho-oh ex listed. You really only need 1. 2 would help avoid prize badness. 2 and a tech something else would be spiffy (the other rayquaza -ex?)
     
  4. moza

    moza New Member

    Wait, are you sure you aren't venusaur?:p
     
  5. ADAM

    ADAM New Member

    best deck idea ever. congrats! i knew someone would find potential with peliper d. why not take advantage of hermit when the next set comes out. or buffer piece...mmm buffery...
     
  6. Flaming_Spinach

    Flaming_Spinach Feature Editor

    I don't particularly like the deck. It seems like too delicate of a balance to me.

    I'm not sure of how you'd do to any deck that hits the bench. ie. Megalix, Raieggs, and Flariados to name a few.


    It's definatelly an interesting deck, but I just don't see much potential with it.





    PS. There's only 1 INFINITY, and this aint it.
     
  7. Prime

    Prime Content Developer<br>Blog Admin<br>Contest Host

    Jake, jake, jake, your daughter hasn't seemed to slow you down one bit. Always with those weird ideas. But you know, I've been on the other side of the table from a few of those "weird" ideas. Good luck with it Jake, I'm sure you'll make it great.

    EDIT: Actually, here's an idea. Rayquaza EX δ out of Dragon Frontiers. It has an attack for LC that lets it snipe anything for 20-30, but 50 if it has a body or power. If your behind in prizes, all C costs go away, making it able to do 70 for LL and snipe anything for just L. So you just snipe, snipe, snipe, when it gets close to die, shuffle it back into the deck and go get another and (hopefully your down on prizes) put 1 energy and keep sniping (not taking prizes). Then when your ready, just start KO'ing things. Jolteon EX might work (I doubt it) or something else.
     
  8. ADAM

    ADAM New Member

    a link? or explaination?
     
  9. Dendrobatida

    Dendrobatida New Member

    Matt, you'll note that rayquaza ex d is the one to which I refer in the second list. Hence, I'm likely to agree with your assessment (given that it agrees with mine :p). Great minds think alike, eh?

    Flaming Spinach: Not sure what to do with your post....not much substance in there. I tried adding a 2-2 line of "flaming spinach thinks this sucks", but I found I didn't have room. Likewise with the tech "Some stuff pwns this". I tried the "Flaming Spinach copyrighted the word INFINITY and didn't tell anyone" strategy on apprentice, but it lacked late-game comeback ability. I value your opinions, but given that I'm going to play this because I think it looks like a heckuva lot of fun (personal taste), I posted it in the deck help and strategy forum in order to get other's input on the decklist (help) and how they might play it (strategy). I'm not really looking for a rating of the idea. One of the things we're trying to cultivate here is an atmosphere of mutual assistance and positive reinforcement. I'm an old hand at this, so flame away on me...I think, though, that we're all looking for board members to be a little more constructive in this forum with their comments, particularly if the posters are younger/newer to the game. I will keep in mind that you feel it has balance issues...though that's pretty vague, I think I might be able to suss out some sort of constructive critique from that and see if I can address it, if I find it becomes a problem.

    ADAM: I checked out hermit, and I think it has potential in a number of decks. Not sure about this one, though...I'd opt to take that 3rd card with another draw card, or use a copycat instead. Buffer piece, or energy root, would work well if you opt to feature a non-ex attacker.

    Moza: I am positive I am neither the pokemon venusaur nor the user on the boards (Jeremy). Why do you ask?
     
  10. Flaming_Spinach

    Flaming_Spinach Feature Editor

    *sigh*

    You want some substance? How about this:


    The fix depends on what type of deck becomes big in your area.


    Maganium-Steelix: Ho-oh would definatelly be the better choice. Ray d ex is resisted too hardcore by Steelix to be any good. If you play Ray, they will simply send up a Steelix and snipe your Fearows and Pidgeots until you have nothing left to prevent the 2HKO on your Ray. Agro Hooh is the only real chance you have. Dugtrio's a possibility.

    Raieggs: Hard to tell which version would be better. Their Zzzaps plus Curse Stones plus BFs plus Ces. Crystals would make this a very hard match. Dugtrio might be able to save your bench (at least, until they play a Ces. Crystal and Zzzap the same turn).

    Metanite: They CAN reach 110 damage. Ho-oh would at least be able to OHKO their Metagrosses, but they will just OHKO you back (eventhough it may take a turn or two). Buffer Piece would help.

    Gardevoir d ex (yes, it'scoming): They place 1 Seal Marker and defeat everything you setup for. Since there's no way(I can see) that you're going to OHKO them, each Gardevoir will put AT LEAST 2 Seal Markers in play. The only way you have a chance is with Tropius.

    Mewtrick:

    Luarock:


    Basically, you lose to anything with power denial or bench damage. If you're looking for ideas, here's a list of what I proposed,andsome other ideas I didn't get to.

    Buffer Piece
    Dugtrio
    Ho-oh > Ray aslong as you can get the right energies on him.
    Tropius




    I g2g. Will edit or add more later.

    ttyl.
     
  11. Houou_10

    Houou_10 New Member

    Looks very nice.

    However if your opponent plays Giant Stump at any time after T4/T5 you are quite screwed. Yes I'm stating the obvious, but one fairly common card should NOT mess you up this much.
     
  12. moza

    moza New Member

    Jake, Vensuar came up with an idea similar in the fact that it would last forever for the Iron Chef.
     
  13. Dendrobatida

    Dendrobatida New Member


    See? There you go. Edit out your *sigh* and you've got a constructive post free of negative attitude and contentiousness, which is all we're really looking for here on the boards. Much more helpful and bridge-building than the first one. You learn quickly! (for the relevant issue, do refer back to the forum rules for this section, particularly: "Replys must provide HELP or STRATEGY with a positive tone for the deck under discussion. Posts that bash the author or the deck will be deleted. Posts that feature a rating or an evaluation of the decks chance of success will be deleted." Do read the more in-depth version of the rules for examples of this type of post.)

    Houou: Yup. Giant stump is an issue. So's an opponent's crawdaunt -ex. In fact, there's alot of stuff out there right now that hurts this deck, but a deck with certain matchup problems isn't anything new to the format. I do appreciate input on any counters you might have to the problems you mention. Rest assured, all, I'm aware of other cards in the format that might come up to throw the old sabot into my cogs. What I'm looking for is the "help and strategy" to get around them.

    Moza: Link me up. I'd love to take a look.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2006
  14. BigChuck01

    BigChuck01 New Member

    Very interesting Jake. Ray ex d should provide you with an INFINITELY better attacker option next set.
     
  15. DarkMagnus

    DarkMagnus New Member

    Cloyster d. will keep your benched delta pokes from takin damage. cuz i see a sniped out Fearow FTW
     
  16. SomethingElse

    SomethingElse New Member

    won't this be having problems with rai/eggs with zaaping?
     
  17. ZAKtheGeek

    ZAKtheGeek New Member

    Prime, based on the translation I'm reading, Rayquaza reduces its costs by (C), not removes all (C) from its costs.

    So it would cost LLC to do 70, not LL.
     
  18. Articjedi

    Articjedi New Member

    That's only if you're down on prizes, I think you can depend on having prize advantage for most of the game with something like this. Still, I haven't seen a better basic attacker than ray d ex for this. Ho oh just looks like it'll take too long to build.

    No holon castform? I think you can afford a couple prizes early on.
     
  19. Magnechu

    Magnechu New Member

    Jake, you never tackled any of F_S's points lol. I'm curious as to see how you would deal in those matchups, especially Delta.
     
  20. Dendrobatida

    Dendrobatida New Member

    He indicated that he'd edit his post or add more later. I figured I'd wait until he was finished before tackling his suggestions.
     
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