Introducing the Paris Mulligan System into Pokemon

Discussion in 'TCG News & Gossip Discussion' started by LegendaryLugia, Feb 27, 2011.

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  1. LegendaryLugia

    LegendaryLugia New Member

    For those of you who don't know what the Paris Mulligan is, it's a mulliganing system whereby if a player is unhappy with his/her hand they can shuffle their hand into their deck and draw a hand with one fewer card than the one they just shuffled in. They can do this as many times as they like. Introducing this system, I think, would be hugely beneficial to the game as games would be decided less by who had the best opening hand, which is a problem, along with others, that's plaguing the game at the moment.

    Thoughts?

    LL
     
  2. baby mario

    baby mario Front Page Article Editor<br><a href="http://pokeg

    It would probably increase donking, more than anything.

    Player A gets as ok hand with 1 starting Pokemon - they probably won't risk the optional mulligan

    Player B runs a deck with donking capabilites - they now have 2-3 chances to get the opening hand they need for the FTW.
     
  3. LegendaryLugia

    LegendaryLugia New Member

    What about introducing it post-BW ruleset?
     
  4. drpokey

    drpokey New Member

    I think it's a great rule
     
  5. baby mario

    baby mario Front Page Article Editor<br><a href="http://pokeg

    Dunno . . . would have to see how the game changes and what the rotation is. You will still have speed decks around (Zekrom, Chillaccino, even Donphan) plus Pokemon Catcher.

    I can see it being ok if Pokemon was a game where 'good start' means you have your deck set up and working in 2-3 turns. All the while 'good start' means instant win though . . . seems bad. Even if set up decks DID rule post B&W (which I doubt), it would only take one new donk deck to come out and then there would be problems.

    I don't know anything about MTG (I heard it's a good game and everything, but it just doesn't appeal to me), but I bet it isn't dominated by decks that win in 1 or 2 turns with a good starting hand.
     
  6. PheonyxXx

    PheonyxXx New Member

    This works great in Magic because its impossible to win turn 1. In pokemon, I don't see it working. Both games use different mechanics, it just doesn't really seem feasible.
     
  7. Blue Blur

    Blue Blur New Member

    Nah, you'd get people doing it all the time; and it would prolong the tournament further.
     
  8. LegendaryLugia

    LegendaryLugia New Member

    But post-BW ruleset and in the next format (which I predict will be GS-on), when there's virtually no chance of a T1 donk, do you think it'd be better?
     
  9. Scubadude

    Scubadude New Member

    Its what you use in other turn based games like magic and naruto . But in pokemon it would be terrible I got a keepable hand you didn't so now your minus one . Now the chance of you having a keep-able hand decreases again . It works in other games because its much slower then pokemon where you can keep a hand of turn 1 play and resource not in this game.
     
  10. Raen

    Raen New Member

    I don't think the Paris system would work for Pokemon, but I would like some kinda of optional mulligan. Maybe a system where each player has 1 optional mulligan, and their opponent gets to draw a card if they opt not to take their mulligan?
     
  11. baby mario

    baby mario Front Page Article Editor<br><a href="http://pokeg

    The possibilities for a great opening hand are far more in Pokemon than in MTG which doesn't have the powerful (and cost-free) draw/search.

    Even in HGSS-on, if I get Zekrom (or any free retreater), Collector, 2 [L] and one other Energy, I can do 120 damage. I can even do that if I go first, thanks to the the new B&W rules that let me play Collector. OK, that is a bit of a god hand but it's not THAT improbable and there are other combinations of cards that work as well. Do you really want to give me 3 chances to draw that? Even if I mulligan twice that still gives me 5 cards plus my draw for the turn to pull it off.

    The thing is that having a bad opening hand is only a PART of the problem. It's quite possible to have a decent opening hand and STILL lose because of what your opponent draws (this has happened to everyone). If you give optional mulligans you INCREASE the chances that one player will draw into a T1-2 win.
     
  12. Jaeger

    Jaeger New Member

    5 Cards where you need to draw 4 certain cards...I'll take those odds. I think the thing we need to reword would be 1 mulligan. My hand is sort of good not bad but playable, do I get rid of it or do I keep it?
     
  13. kwisdumb

    kwisdumb New Member

    How would you handle having to have a Pokemon in your opening hand, though? It works in other games because you can have an empty board, but I dunno how well that would translate to Pokes. I suppose you could make a rule in which, if you choose to mulligan, you have to reveal, draw one less, and then if you don't see a basic Poke in the 6 card hand, you automatically have to reveal and draw one less? What happens when you just never see a Pokemon, though? Again, you can't have an empty board so...

    Maybe, in line with the rules we have now, you could have one optional mulligan per game, you have to reveal, and your opponent draws a card? And then you can't mulligan from then on, unless of course you hit no basics, in which your opponent can keep drawing cards, etc?

    Good discussion to have.
     
  14. Elite_4_Allen

    Elite_4_Allen New Member

    I've seen it work in the Naruto CCG, but I think in that, you can only mulligan until you have four cards in your hand or something.
    I think it would be a good rule to have in this game, but I doubt it will be put into effect.
     
  15. Tagrineth

    Tagrineth New Member

    For Pokemon to support optional mulligans, because of the need for a basic in the final opening hand, the related rules would have to be far too complicated for the average player.

    If anything, I would've liked to see it be simply "one time, during setup, if you do not like the hand you are given but have at least 1 basic, you can put it on the bottom of your deck and draw a new hand. your opponent may still draw 1 card if you do." Once you use your one optional mulligan, forced mulligans due to no basics would still apply, you just get one shot to replace a dead start hand. Seems to me like arguably the simplest way to handle it for this game too, especially since my method would not require an additional shuffle.
     
  16. Jaeger

    Jaeger New Member

    ^Obivously wouldn't work, makes Underground Expedition BROKE!!!
     
  17. Regis_Neo

    Regis_Neo Moderator

    This is what they have in like MTG right?

    I dunno, it could be ok...personally I don't see it likely increasing the chances of a donk, as you need a set number of specific cards to pull it off, and each time you're mulliganing in this fashion, you're losing 1 card as well. So say most decks need a min of 4 cards or so to pull off a donk, you have 3 chances; after that, if you don't get it, you're left at a severe card disadvantage and more likely to lose to an opponent who has a set card advantage over you. So it's a matter of weighing the risks as well, especially if your opponent doesn't have just 1 basic they're showing; you can go all out to build up say a Machamp with take out with the 4 needed cards, but then you have no hand and better pray your opponent doesn't draw into their evolutions or else it's probably game over for you.
     
  18. DarkBlade

    DarkBlade New Member

    It's kinda stupid IMO. >.<
     
  19. z-man

    z-man New Member

    I don't know what there is to be done with the Mulligan system in this game. Paris Mulligan, in my opinion, is the best system we have so far. I would say that we should do a single Paris Mulligan if the player has a pokemon but does not like his or her hand, and have our current mulligan system minus the part where the opponent draws a card. I have always had a heavy distaste for the card-drawing mechanic. I dislike giving people rewards for their opponents' luck. Even so, I can see how removing it would be a terrible idea. People would be encouraged to run 1 Sableye and a bunch of other stuff... especially under the BW rules. Not giving the opponent a reward would make the Sableye player at a very big advantage due to their heavy use of metagaming (go look up the game theory term if you don't understand). That just cannot be done. The problem with mulligans in our game is that turn 1 donks are possible and there is a required state of the game before we begin. Paris Mulliganning works in magic because the beginning state is decided by the players. There are no requirements to begin... only shuffle and draw. After that, the players can decide if they have a good or a bad hand. Because of this, we would need one or more mulligan systems in place to deal with our game. The one in place right now works fine... but it allows for some really bad hands that players are forced to keep. The way games play out, there are two types of opening hands: playable ones, and Horsee + 6 water energy ones. Playable ones will, within a turn, allow players to basically draw a whole new set of cards and continue the game. The second kind of hand... not much to say. The big difference between our game and games that are successful with this mulligan style is that our opening hand isn't as important as theirs. With Magic, the opening hand sets the tempo of the game. A player who opens well will dominate. A person who opens okay will be in the game. A person who opens garbage will not have a game to play. Pokemon doesn't work that way. Our hands are either playable or garbage. There is very little inbetween. Our opening hands do not set the tempo of the game... they only decide if you play the game, or if you lose the game. Because of this, Paris Mulligans would only be useful to stop those garbage hands. Decks can abuse it heavily, such as Uxie donk post-BW. Uxie Donk will be able to get very picky with its hands. That deck barely has bad starts, so it will be able to get the best hands it can find. What I'm basically saying is that enacting a Paris Mulligan system will give some decks advantages over others. Other games need this mulligan style more because the opening hand is one of the most important thing in the game. Yugioh (which to this day, I feel should have a Paris Mulligan system) is basically decided when the players draw their opening hands. We just don't have that as Pokemon players. Once again, we have good and bad opening hands... other games have amazing, great, good, eh, bleh, and ick hands. Big difference


    Now then, something that we used to do a lot here in Vegas was a format where we got to pick our starter pokemon and then draw 6 cards to start the game. This system worked somewhat well, but seemed to favor set-up decks. Aggressive decks (SP) couldn't survive that format.

    The system we have right now is imperfect, but it is one of the best systems that I have seen. As for Paris Mulligans, they wouldn't hurt the game too much... and they'd definetly cut down on those painful moments where you start with Unown Q and a hand full of pointless cards. Even so, I think it may not be a very good idea in the longterm.
     
  20. Shino Bug Master

    Shino Bug Master Front Page News Editor

    As brought up previously, i'd like to highlight the improbability of Paris Mulligan working in Pokemon due to it's already exsisting force mulligan. In Magic, you maintain the deductable mulligan until you lack ability to do so, an obvious penalty. However, in Pokemon, a force mulligan would overrule Paris Mulligan, if you get 6 cards in hand with no Pokemon, you'd get another chance at a 6 card hand. This would allow decks to run almost no basic Pokemon and rework their entire hand set-up to near perfection, while stalling out game process and generally no simple solution. You could have one mulligan overrule the other, but then you are needlessly complicating the system.
     
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