Is the Level X Mechanic a Failure?

Discussion in 'TCG News & Gossip Discussion' started by yoshi1001, Jun 3, 2008.

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  1. yoshi1001

    yoshi1001 New Member

    Recently I was making a list of possible changes that might help balance the format. However, the one thing that stood out to me was how poorly concieved the Level X mechanic was. Though it initially seemed like a fair balance, the mechanic has instead led a few decks to heavy use, much to the detriment of decks without a level X form.

    I actually had come up with this idea:

    So what do people think? Do Level X cards need to be rewritten to strip them of their excessive options? I really would like to hear some opinions on this.
     
  2. Pidgeotto Trainer

    Pidgeotto Trainer New Member

    I do not think level x's are overpowered. Some effects that hurt x's more would be okay though, but I don't think the game is weaker because of the x's.
     
  3. Cyrus

    Cyrus Iron Chef - Master Emeritus

    Yoshi has some good points, but there is one VERY significant thing about Level X's that make them balanced:

    You cannot directly evolve a stage one into a level x, or RC a basic into a level x.

    Many games have been lost because what would have been an early game "rush" hand was instead *******ized by nailing a Level X instead of the necessary regular Pokemon. Want an Infernape? Well TOO bad, 'cause you're stuck with Infernape Level X!
     
  4. ShadowCard

    ShadowCard Active Member

    Restrictions on cards preventing their effects from being extended to pokemon-ex worked. However, most of those attributes which hindered pokemon-ex didn't work. Attacks that did extra damage if the defending was pokemon-ex still didn't do enough damage, pokemon with Safeguard-esque abilities weren't strong enough to keep from being vulnerable from non-ex pokemon (Only Wobbuffett in Sandstorm was popular but wasn't played when rereleased in PK).
     
  5. SuperWooper

    SuperWooper New Member

    I don't think that the lack of energies and tools that can't be attached to level Xs (and other Lv X hate like Safeguard stuff) is indicative of a failure in the mechanic; rather, it points to balance far superior to that of the ex mechanic. If there was a need for those "can't be attached to god card" clauses, I believe that they would have shown up by now - that they haven't means to me that the level X mechanic is inherently balanced.

    Patriarch made a good point when he brought up the fact that Lv X guys don't have a suffix attached to their names, putting them under the 4-of-a-kind restriction with their cousins. This really limits their usefulness because there is no getting out of the fact the thickest Lv X "line" you can run is 2/2.

    I think the Lv X thing is under control. They're restricted where it's needed (Garchomp Lv X's attack text), and free to maneuver where they should be (special energies, etc).
     
  6. BigChuck01

    BigChuck01 New Member

    Why would you need anti-level x cards. The majority of level Xs are terrible.

    List of current Lv. Xs that SUCK:

    Infernape Lv X
    Torterra Lv X
    Darkrai Lv X
    Dialga Lv X
    Electavire Lv X
    Palkia Lv X
    Honchkrow Lv X
    Lucario Lv X
    Glaceon Lv X
    Garchomp Lv X
    Porygon Z Lv X

    List of decent Lv Xs:

    Empoleon Lv X
    Magmortar Lv X
    Leafeon Lv X
    Cressalia lv X

    List of good Lv Xs

    Gardevoir Lv X
     
  7. TheDarkTwins

    TheDarkTwins Active Member

    I am not sure that breaking in down to 3 categories is how I would do it Chuck. I think I would change it to 4 different categories. I think a few of the Lv. X on your "suck" list dont deserve to be there. I am thinking that Lucario, Honchkrow, Glaceon, Garchomp, Infernape, Electivire, Palkia, and possible Darkrai, could be on a level below good but not at dont waste your time with them. Now, I am not saying I would play with them but there is clearly a difference of playability between Porygon-Z Lv. X and Lucario Lv. X.

    Drew
     
  8. Lucario EX

    Lucario EX Moderator<br>Fanfic Contest Host

    Objection! Dialga Lv. X is playable! So are most of those, actually...

    Luck-based cards are not automatically bad cards. So you flip tails sometimes. You flip heads sometimes too. What about Riolu? It was considered a better starter in Mario than Machop, and their attacks were similar. Riolu required a coin flip, and did more damage because of that. Machop did more than half as much damage, but did not require the flip. On average, Machop would do more damage, so why was Riolu considered to be better if coin flips are so terrible?

    Lv. Xs could use a few more restrictions IMO, but have several more than EXs built in.
     
  9. BigChuck01

    BigChuck01 New Member

    How did talk of Mario get in to this discussion? "Riolu is a better opener than Machop". Awesome, thats like saying Shaqs a better free throw shooter than Ben Wallace.
     
  10. Mystery Thing

    Mystery Thing Administrator

    The only huge problem with the Override vs Extend is that it would make so many of the LvXs literally unplayble. Moreso than some already are.

    Garchomp, Porygon-Z, and Gardevoir would be instantly useless, as they would have no damage-causing attacks. I mean, sure, Bring Down can still be downright nasty, but if you've got a 40/70 Pachi sitting on your Bench, your pretty little Gardie is unuseable. What you would see is it just being thrown out of decks.

    It's a tricky balance, for sure...
     
  11. Tyson

    Tyson New Member

    Hahaha nice! I agree with Chuck, most every Lv. X is terrible. It's hard to get them out, even the basic ones. Not like you'd ever use the basic ones haha.
     
  12. Phazon Elite

    Phazon Elite New Member

    The difference is that, at the time, Riolu did a better job of countering opposing starters than Machop. Riolu OHKOed Castform 50% of the time, while Machop 2HKOed it all the time. Plus, if you wiff the flip, you just evolve to Lucario next turn and kill it that way.

    In contrast, there's no real reason to use Dialga in a serious deck for the same reason people hate Porygon Z (a much more feasible comparison): all the card does is flip, and there's a 1/4 chance of getting the desired effect. Furthermore, there's no skill in hoping your opponent flips coins as to miss their entire next turn. If you were to win a tournament because of making people skip turns, you would do so by dumb luck - not skill.

    A certain amount of coin-flipping is acceptable. If you expect that people will run a 50 HP fighting-weak starter, and you know of a deck which can kill that thing T1 half the time (nearly guaranteed kill on T2) while still doing good against most of the other expected decks, playing said deck is certainly a viable option. Playing it under this set of circumstances can be considered a "smart play."

    Again, though, Dialga X is not a Metagame counter like Riolu was. It has just as much of a chance to skip the rest of your turn as it does to skip your opponent's entire turn. No matter which player's turn is skipped, you do nothing but make yourself look foolish by even trying such a stupid stunt - and as stated earlier, people will attribute any victory to pure luck, not your skill.

    That, in a very poorly organized nutshell, is (IMO) why Chuck stated that Dialga X is bad. It makes the player look like an idiot (again, IMO).
     
  13. chriscobi634

    chriscobi634 New Member

    it seems for a deck to be good it needs to have a Lv. X. Look at how these decks had Lv. X and dominated for some time:

    Inferncatty last yeat at Spring Battle Roads. It had Infernape Lv. X

    Lucario/Blissey at Fall Battle Roads. It had Lucario Lv. X

    G/G dominated States and Regionals. Gardy Lv. X is almost broken

    Now Empoleon/Omastar is highly played in these Spring Battle Roads. Empoleon Lv. X is a very good addition to the bench hitting and disruption.

    So ever since the fall Battle Roads for this year the top deck has had a Lv. X.
     
  14. edwarpy

    edwarpy New Member

    Nope! Love the LvX! You have to go active to level up, great! Premiere Ball to make it happen again, ++.
    LvX tins so the bonus is available to the average player, ++ (loved it when Darkrai got tinned). Don't
    have to spend $300+ dollars for a competitive 6-8 EX deck, ++. Having to spend $?? to get six LvX
    fairies next year, --. Now we're back where we started with EX....

    Spreading the LvX love, ++, why doesn't every power Pokemon have one...
     
  15. Steve=0

    Steve=0 New Member

    We have Milotic and Luxray(In next set) to counter LvlXes!
     
  16. pikachu*

    pikachu* New Member

    AMU anyone.

    Cresselia is used in Arithmetic, Azelf, Mesprit and Uxie are used in AMU, Mewtwo shall be fairly used to counter AMU. Palkia is used in Empalkia, Dialga is used in Venusaur/Dialga, Darkrai can be used in any, dark deck.

    So yeah.
     
  17. bullados

    bullados <a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?

    A Level X card is only as good as the card that it Levels Up from. All of the LvX cards have great effects, but all of them have to be played from, and use, their previous level's abilities.

    Gardy lvX is considered "good" because SW Gardy is AMAZING, and PK Gardy is certainly "better than average".

    Leafeon lvX is only considered "above average" because neither of the Leafeons are particularly great, even though the LvX has one of the best abilities in the game (energy accel).

    Dialga lvX is only considered "bad" because none of the Dialgas get anywhere close to even "above average" status.

    BTW, I'm still looking for somebody to break Garchomp lvX. I know it can be done, I just don't really know *how* to do it yet...
     
  18. The Phenom1993

    The Phenom1993 New Member

    I never really liked Lv.X pokemon and IMO they are a failure.
    First of all you can only be allowed to have 4 of Lv.X and normal pokemon combined in a deck, which could hurt sometimes. Then not being allowed to level up benched pokemon and not being able to rare candy them isn't nice either.
    At least they have some good points too. They can use attacks from their original form(or previous stage), the only count as 1 prize, and they have some nice attacks and powers.


    But if look a bit back when Ex were in their prime you could see that almost every deck had an ex pokemon, and lots of decks had multiple of them, some even exceeded 4 or 5 ex. Lv.X are rarely played and when they are only 1 is played.

    Personally i would love to see Lv.X go away and introduce either pokemon ex back, or something similar
     
  19. flariados

    flariados New Member

    Look at electivire with the lvx and SW fails because you can only run 2-1-1 of them with the 2 being the DP ones your energy accelerator goes away if it's prized and your lvx is also useless somtimes because it can be prized.
     
  20. BigChuck01

    BigChuck01 New Member

    How could I have forgotten about Empalkia and VENUSAUR/Dialga? I withdraw my previous posts.
     
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