ZAKtheGeek
New Member
I don't know what your point is. You're asking how to try a card. What do you want??
Island Hermit...Why aren't you playing it?
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I want to know "how" to try a card and keep your objectivity, which is exactly what my post asks. "How" has been placed in question marks to emphasize the point. Do you believe that if you merely try a card in a deck, that you can assess correctly whether it is a good card? You try it for a while, and then you just feel whether it is good or not?
Look: People believed that the sun revolved around the earth for thousands of years. It just felt right. What you feel proves very little. Somebody else can try Hermit in exactly the same deck as you, and have a different feeling about how well it works. If that happens, what are we to do?
What I want to know is exactly how to "try" the card. Give me a recipe: step 1, step 2, ... step N, that in the end is going to tell me whether Hermit is "good" or not. If you want to skip telling me what steps 1 through N-1 are, then at least tell me Step N (and I can just guess at the prior steps).
Look: People believed that the sun revolved around the earth for thousands of years. It just felt right. What you feel proves very little. Somebody else can try Hermit in exactly the same deck as you, and have a different feeling about how well it works. If that happens, what are we to do?
What I want to know is exactly how to "try" the card. Give me a recipe: step 1, step 2, ... step N, that in the end is going to tell me whether Hermit is "good" or not. If you want to skip telling me what steps 1 through N-1 are, then at least tell me Step N (and I can just guess at the prior steps).
Let Fire Fall
New Member
how about we stop argueing about it.
play it if you want, theres no reason there should be a 10 page topic on this. No offense but get a life.
play it if you want, theres no reason there should be a 10 page topic on this. No offense but get a life.
ZAKtheGeek
New Member
I don't think you can properly evaluate a card without playing it. On-paper is no substitute for actual game situations. So.
1. Put a couple Hermit in a deck where it seems like it might work.
2. Play the deck.
3. See if using the card helps your deck function, ie, helps you win.
Conclusion: if it helps you, it's probably good. At least in that one deck.
I think there's a name for this process. Playtesting, or something...
1. Put a couple Hermit in a deck where it seems like it might work.
2. Play the deck.
3. See if using the card helps your deck function, ie, helps you win.
Conclusion: if it helps you, it's probably good. At least in that one deck.
I think there's a name for this process. Playtesting, or something...
How do you know whether it "helps" your deck? What is the decision mechanism? I want to know exactly. For example, an exact mechanism would be: Following 50 games, you flip a coin; if it lands heads, then the card helps; if it lands tails, then it doesn't help.ZAKtheGeek said:
Once again, how can we make this objective, such that another experimenter can repeat the experiment and come to the same result with some degree of certainty? Note that flipping a coin doesn't yield repeatable results. Please supply a mechanism to decide.
Absoltrainer
Active Member
toby said:
The way to playtest and understand the results of that playtest is:
-Play a deck you won't auto win or easily win against. Make it a deck that will be a challenge to beat or even an near auto-loss deck (depending on what you are trying to tech in / playtest)
- Play at least 3 or more matches against that deck.
- Afterwards consider how many times you won
- Consider how close you where to winning when you loss
- Consider if the card you added aided in those wins and nearwins
If the card obviously helped you beat or stand more of a chance against a certain deck then the playtest showed that it is useful the keep the card in. If the card did not help or you did not use it as much or as well as you thought you would then reconsider it.
Skull Bash
New Member
If LFF knew how to spell Arguing, I'd agree with his post.
Seriously, run what you want, the fact that there's 10 pages on this is rediculous. This should be locked just because you all have no life.
Seriously, run what you want, the fact that there's 10 pages on this is rediculous. This should be locked just because you all have no life.
ZAKtheGeek
New Member
If you read closely, you'll see I did give you a fairly precise criteria (criterium?): it helps you win. Consider what the card gives you, and how much easier or more difficult it would have been to win without that effect.
I read plenty closely. It is you who can't comprehend. I'm asking for an exact formulation of how to decide. I'm looking for a formulation that forces the same conclusion (based on whatever evidence is collected) regardless of who the experimenter is. That is, I want precise way of interpretting the data. I don't want: see if it helps. What does see mean? If you see if it helps, and then I see if it helps, I want the conclusion to be the same. What forces us to see and come to the same conclusion?ZAKtheGeek said:
Look. During the day, you witness the sun floating across the sky. You see the earth rotating. I look at the sun, and I see the sun revolving around the earth. Whose seeing is correct? Unless you can provide a formulation of decision-making that forces the same conclusion, it absolutely doesn't matter what data are collected. Without this formulation, playtesting is completely useless. I'm looking for a figure-of-merit. Do you understand that?
Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:
What does consider mean? I'm not looking for some general way of playtesting. If you consider and then I consider, do we necessarily come to the same conclusion? What forces us to conclude the same thing? If we aren't forced to conclude the same thing, then what makes your conclusion valid? If it isn't valid, why should I listen to your conclusion, or you listen to mine? If we needn't listen to one another, why debate the issue? We can't possibly get anywhere if we don't consider in exactly the same way. Do you know what a figure-of-merit is?Absoltrainer said:
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Professor Elm
Active Member
I tested out 2x Island Hermit in my Ledian d/Arbok d/Quagsire d and it has proven to be quite useful overall. I really like it, I just wish other people would try it out. Being able to know your prizes REALLY comes in handy sometimes.
Running 3 or 4 is not something I suggest though cause they will just become dead weight if you don't have any prizes to flip.
Running 3 or 4 is not something I suggest though cause they will just become dead weight if you don't have any prizes to flip.
Chromecatz
New Member
^^ uh
if you dont have prizes to flip then the game is over lollll
if you dont have prizes to flip then the game is over lollll
ZAKtheGeek
New Member
Well, dude, it's a complicated game. You're just not going to get anything much more specific than that. If that's what it takes to prove to you that a card is "good," then pretty much all cards are going to be mysterious in their utility to you.
Absoltrainer
Active Member
toby said:
consider means to think carefully about, esp. in order to make a decision; contemplate.
Well in this case to think carefully about, esp. in order to make a decision; contemplate how the card in your opinion helped or hurt you deck.
There is not number formula to decide if a card is good for a deck or not.
I guess we should just give up, then. We should say pi is 3, because we don't have the foggiest notion how to compute it. That's what you're arguing, right? If we don't know what the answer is, then we should just throw our arms up and believe in something, right or wrong. It's better to believe something which might be false, then find ourselves in doubt, right?ZAKtheGeek said:
Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:
And what good is that? People have opinions about all kinds of things. Why should I believe my opinion about whether the card is good in preference to somebody else's opinion? Let's suppose I try out Heaven's Gate, and in my opinion, it seems pretty good for me. My freinds and family have a different opinion: they say it is a dangerous cult. Now, what am I to do? Should I trust my opinion, simply because I generated it?Absoltrainer said:
How do you know that? It's very difficult to know that something does not exist. Are you quite sure you want to make that assertion? A thousand years ago, you might have well asserted that viruses don't exist. Okay, prove to me that there is no formula to decide if a card is good for a deck or not.Absoltrainer said:
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Absoltrainer
Active Member
toby said:
You don't have to be able to be able to compute something in order to believe in it. Hypothosis are computed. They are educated guesses. Use the Scientific Method
Problem - does the card work or not
Hypothosis - it will
Experiment - play several games
Observe - how well did I do in those games
Conclusion - I did well therefore the card is good in my deck
No computing there. You now have your self a theory that the card is good and help your deck.
toby said:
Well first of all you should not be a conformist just because other think differently. If you think your opinion does not matter then you have self esteem issues. Who say that the opinions of others are right. Who says you have to believe what other belive. If no one cared about opinion then everyone would be the same and netrual. If a card in your opinion seems good to you use it. Don't give in to peer pressure and let other tell you how to play If someone says that a card is a dangourous cult then you tell them " uhhh no I like the card and it helps me win so I want to use it." It all depends on the subject really. I mean your families opinion it a lot more important in disision making if it is a personal or family issue, but this is a game, if you like a card then use it, if it helps you use it, if ypu don't like it then don't use it, I don't see how that is hard to understand
toby said:
OK I assume there is no formula because I have never seen , heard of, or used it before. I never said I was right did I? Did I say that I proved that there was one. I assumed it. I also used the scintific method to try and check.
Problem - Is there a formula
Hypothosis - no
Experiment - search pokegym and internet for any kind of pokemon formula
Observe - found none
Conclusion - are none
Theory - are none
Theorys are not always right. Laws are always right theorys are subject to change.
Now you could say, hey the Scientific Method is a formula, in that case I would be wrong as I explained how the SM could be used to see if a card is good or not.
Now you say 1000 years ago people assumed there where no virusus, Well that was there theory and later they found out that their theory was wrong.
In this case you don't need a formula to calculate if a card is good or not. You playtest and if you win with that card and if that card is an assest then use it. Just use the Scintific method. Find the card you want to use, guess if it will help or not, play with the card in your deck, observe how it helped or hurt your deck, conclude if you should keep it of not.
ZAKtheGeek
New Member
I'm only giving up based on your ridiculously precise standard. I'm sorry, but I doubt very many people need to be so thoroughly convinced that a card is good that only a specific mathematical formula for success (and satisfaction of it, of course) would be good enough.
Can I prove that well that Hermit is "good?" No. Can anyone prove that well that any card is good? I doubt it. Like I've already said. So it's a pretty useless standard you're trying to hold me to.
What are you talking about? What is this belief in this case, again...?
Absoltrainer
Active Member
PSYCO829 said:
I go with what works
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