Just an idea about Teir SSBB

Discussion in 'Electronic Games' started by Absoltrainer, Feb 2, 2009.

  1. Absoltrainer

    Absoltrainer Active Member

    We all know about the accepted offical Smashboards/GameFAQ teirs, but what about making out own teir system based on Pokegym Tournaments and how certain character do on them?

    Just thought it would be a neat experiment. The way it would have to work is that when a character is used in a tournament, his/her win ratio is recorded and compared to others on the gym. Now I know that some people are better players and use certain character (diddy might be number 1) but I think it would be a fun experiment.

    What do you guys think
  2. Varna

    Varna New Member

    "Accepted" is a bad term to use. "Popular" is what you're looking for.

    It might be fun to track some sort of win/loss record for characters, sure, but don't expect them to have any real bearing on the characters themselves. Far too many variables involved and way too small of a player sampling to give any useful results.
  3. vaporeon

    vaporeon Moderator

    Well, Tiers are a bad thing period as they ruin games. But it would be cool to have something like that here though. I have the best Sonic here. Chompy's Diddy is the best here.
  4. Tagrineth

    Tagrineth New Member

    ...ruin games?

    You do realize that tiers are derived from actual play results in the game, not the other way around, right?
  5. Varna

    Varna New Member

    A concept itself is harmless. It is the people that carry out that concept that cause damage. I'm pretty sure that is what he was referring to.
  6. charmander rox

    charmander rox New Member

    Well, it's a great idea, but we have far too few people.

    If the best person just happened to be able to own with Sonic, and the next person owns with Mr. Game and Watch, and the next person owns with Pikachu, and the next person owns with Yoshi, and then we finally arrive to someone who mains Wolf, the tiers will look... odd.
  7. vaporeon

    vaporeon Moderator

    What I mean is that Tiers ruin games. Because a Tier list is made only means that people will play the high Tier character and not the rest of the characters and will only focus on those characters, not that there's nothing wrong with that.

    I just hate it when people base things on tiers and use it as a crutch but, you can't tell people how to play I guess. People just base them based on game play. If people only play Meta Knight and find all his glitches, yeah but they only keep the high tier characters high, they never touch the lower tier characters. To me, Sonic is anything but low tier but its not going to change because people rather figure out how to make Snakes up tilt more broken.

    Its the reason why I say tiers ruin games. They are one-sided and favored to the high tier characters.

    On a side note, I think we should have a win/loss record here for everyone based on the character they use.
  8. Tagrineth

    Tagrineth New Member

    Again, tier lists are derived from actual results, they aren't purely academic.

    And people DO play low-tier characters. ChuDat is famous for breaking into top cuts of Melee tournaments with low-tier characters and even more or less singlehandedly pushed Ice Climbers up a tier with his discoveries and techniques.

    Even without a "tier list" people who don't think for themselves will look up tournament results, see who wins the most, and pick that character. Doesn't matter if there's a "tier list" that gives them that information right away.
  9. Varna

    Varna New Member

    Pretty much exactly what I said. The concept is not the problem, it's the mentality of the ones who carry it out.
  10. vaporeon

    vaporeon Moderator

    Yeah. I don't have a problem with tiers but the people who follow them and act like they are the game. In Pokemon, yeah I can see a Tier list be even the every Pokemon I use I can make them good. Now in Smash where you have full control over your character, tiers should not exist because anyone who mains Yoshi can beat a Meta Knight main. I've done it. I just think tiers should not be the main focus of the game. Its just like the OU players in Pokemon.
  11. Tagrineth

    Tagrineth New Member

    But they do exist, and again, they're derived from actual results, they aren't just from people going "Hmm, meta knight has more tricks and advantages than yoshi, he should be higher tier".

    A Yoshi main CAN beat a Meta Knight main, but the odds are not in the Yoshi's favour, and on average, Yoshi doesn't win many tournaments.

    Not all characters in any given fighting game are created equal.
  12. Nukada

    Nukada New Member

    There is a specific difference between tiers in fighting games like this, and tiers of the pokemon games.

    While the pokemon games tiers are completely backed by numbers, the fighting game genre is not.

    If these tiers are established and 'everyone' is playing with the high tier characters, you can bring up a character from a lower tier, and your opponents won't have a clue what to do, which then screws up what is considered a tier.
  13. vaporeon

    vaporeon Moderator

    Thats why, because people don't play Yoshi. If one Yoshi player had to play Meta Knights in a tournament, chances are that Yoshi Player is going to lose just like a if a tournament was played with all Yoshies and 1 Meta Knightm chances are he will lost. The Tier list is very flawed because of that. People look at the list and see High tier Character and play that character. The characters are not judge the way they should be.

    Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

    Yeah. Although I hate ****** with a passion, they have hard core data about their Tier list. While I can still fight Pidgeot in Ubers and win, the same thing applys. People will have a hard time fighting lower tier character if all they play is high tier characters.
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2009
  14. dragonspy900

    dragonspy900 New Member

    Just to point it out, Yoshi is considered as a viable counter for meta knight which is close to 50/50 I believe. We can't make a tier list due to we don't have enough data to place characters at.
  15. vaporeon

    vaporeon Moderator

    I don't know the counters at all. I just play who I want. But if they are going to make a tier list, they should test all the characters. Do a test tournament. Sonic vs Meta Knight. Yoshi vs Snake, Link, vs King Dedede. 2 character tournaments or something to get the most data because the tier list sucks now.
  16. Varna

    Varna New Member

    And that is precisely why they are inaccurate and unreliable at best. They are doing exactly the opposite of what is required of a true Tier list. Results cannot have any bearing on a character's overall potential. You can look at tournament results all day long, but this will never prove "[x character] is better than [y character]". I would go as far to say that their definition of "Tier" is completely mixed up with what should be labeled as "Metagame".

    These "Tier" lists cause themselves to stagnate, skew, and become completely wrong over a short period of time. Most people that adhere to the list will play only those characters which are on top, with few exceptions. This causes those characters to be rated "higher" than others simply due to seeing excessive amounts of play, which degrades the list into a popularity rating rather than an actual measure of a character's potential. The flaw of the system lies in the fact that this data should never be used, else the list becomes something different than what was intended. It becomes a graph showing the victory percentage, on average, of all the characters that were used in the tournaments that were reported. If you'd like some familiar terms, this is what can be represented as the "Metagame", which is entirely different than the "Tiers" of one. If they referred to this list as the "Meta list" instead of the "Tier list", and did not take it to be an absolute measurement of character potential, but rather as a resource that can be used to study the nature of the game and possible trends within it, then they would be correct.

    In order to make a true "Tier" list, you need to account for all variables involved with a character and it's possible surroundings (stages), as well as any randomization that occurs within. This is not an easy task, nor a short one. It cannot be "who won more tournaments", nor should it even include them. That is not a representation of the character at all, as then you are adding in the player as another variable, which changes everything.

    When you put the player into the equation, this entire system loses it's purpose. As an example of what is required of the player, Smash contains an element of fighting (I consider it to be primarily a Party game, with elements of the fighting genre). The reaction times, thought processes, and knowledge base of the player have an utmost importance in the final outcome of the game. You cannot make a comprehensive and accurate "Tier" list and apply it to anyone but the player from which you obtained the data with this variable being so important and volatile. The only good the list will do is show you which character is better in that particular player's hands.

    The concept of "Tiers" is valid, but it's execution is thus far not sound and has been carried out in the wrong manner. You can acceptably say "Meta Knight has such and such good moves, and awesome priority", but you cannot ever soundly say "Meta Knight is better than [character] no matter who uses them", which is what the creators of the list have tried to do. Due to the importance of the player variable in a game such as this, you cannot arguably ever compile a universal "Tier" list that will have any use.
  17. vaporeon

    vaporeon Moderator

    And you just said what that tier list is. Until everything is tested, the tier list will just be a meta list like Varna said.
  18. Tagrineth

    Tagrineth New Member

    You're still interpreting tier information wrong, because generally in a fighting game that is considered "balanced" overall (not many actually achieve this), the tier list isn't meant as a didactic "top tier will always beat bottom tier" list. In fact, one way to measure balance in a fighter is in how well the bottom tier can stack up against the top tier, on average.

    Lemme bring in a different example here. Guilty Gear XX, in all of its incarnations, is to date arguably the most balanced fighter of all time. Different versions have shuffled the tiers around - and Eddie stopped being "god tier" in XX/Slash, funny enough - but if you ask a GG pro about his honest opinion, they'll generally answer that while yes, it's easier to learn Eddie or Millia and murderface someone with them, the lower tiered characters like Bridget, Venom, and others can still compete on a consistent basis and do still come out on top frequently... but it's arguably more difficult to learn how to play the lower tiered characters well enough to compete, and the person playing Bridget is going to have to work much harder to beat Eddie or Potemkin than a person of similar skill playing Millia would. At that level though you're still bringing your A game or losing horribly though lol.

    Only severely unbalanced games have really didactic tiers that rigidly define who will win and who won't. Offhand, Marvel vs. Capcom 2 and yes, Smash Bros.:Melee are two popular games that both fall victim to this pretty badly - the higher tiered characters are in their place because they really do have massive advantages over the other characters. Unfortunately, not much can be done after the fact to fix the brokenness of Fox's Shine or of Sentinel's... um... everything.

    edit: and for the record, I don't think SSBB's tier lists are valid yet, the game definitely hasn't been out long enough. People are still discovering new ways to play and new approaches to characters, it'll probably still be a while before a truly accurate tier list is developed for it. I mean, remember when people thought Wario was one of the best characters in the game? That really wasn't very long ago. People have also recently discovered some neat stuff Samus can do, and she's till now been stuck near the bottom of SSBB's "tiers"... and she may move up soon as people master new techniques.
  19. vaporeon

    vaporeon Moderator

    We're not interpreting the Tier List wrong. The Tier List comes from tournament ranking and all the tournaments are being played with Meta Knight and Snake along with a few other selects for characters, which are also somewhere around high and the list won't change until low tier characters start beating high tier character.

    The list should be have real data in it and not just what won tournaments. To me, the list is just what character won tournaments and how their glitches work in fighting. its no real data. It should be tested based on how the character works on basics and then everything else. They have Pokemon Trainer listed as low tier when he has everything the other fighters had in one. Speed, Power and spammable attacks. The list is wrong.

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