LC's vs BR's
- Thread starter JandPDS
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gradientraptor
New Member
I'd really like to see an expansion of cities as well. We basically don't have anything all summer leading up to Nationals. Seems like a great time to capitalize on considering the attention given to children and teens.
ShadowCard
Active Member
LCs are definitely better than BRs. With so many more LCs, players do not all need to descend onto a few events on the weekends, creating very large events for the CPs offered.
LCs enable OP to find/train new people.
LCs, because they can be run by TOs, have a more flexible schedule. This makes tournaments more accessible for different players and venues.
LCs, because there are more of them and run by more local TOs, enable TPCi to identify and fix account errors faster.
LCs enable OP to find/train new people.
LCs, because they can be run by TOs, have a more flexible schedule. This makes tournaments more accessible for different players and venues.
LCs, because there are more of them and run by more local TOs, enable TPCi to identify and fix account errors faster.
Agreed with on all points... however areas without League Challenges suffer.... More Leagues need to be approved for League Challenges, especially those in areas with low # of League Challenges.
AyameHikaru
Active Member
Hmmm, guess so far I'm the only person to not favor LC's over BR's.
My main beeves (yes that is a valid plural of beef) are as follows:
1. Too much time.
Leagues are a 2-3 hour block. That's just not enough time to run anything bigger than a 16 person (per division) tournament, and even 16 is pushing it. You've got time for maybe 4 rounds (allowing 38 minutes per round including round flipping and a 30 min reg) before you're outside your normal time slot. With Battle Roads, they were 99% of the time on weekends so time wasn't near as much an issue. Sure, you can move your registration time to before your league is supposed to begin, but what about the families that have events before league? They're used to you starting at a particular time, so when you don't they are faced with the options of come late and watch, or ditch another event to get to yours on time.
2. Creates an exclusionary feeling for those not playing and ties up LL/LO
This is something I noticed with my own league. Yes, we announce things beforehand and yes, it's only one day a season, but oftentimes I have people come to my league only once or twice a season. If they come on a LC night, their night is shot. Anyone without a legal deck and/or urge to play and/or entry fee is left off by themselves in a kind of corner of shame. It's my responsibility to help them feel included, but how do I do that while manning the computer or judging? I can't devote any sizable chunk of time to them without risking neglecting my tournament. I can ask (quietly) any player who might be comfortable not playing to go and keep them company instead, particularly professors, but it's not enough. It's a pity throw and they know it. My kids that like playing with older cards? Guess what, you gotta play with no one but your siblings for the umpteenth time. Sorry, can't trade. No, none of them can trade either, we're all busy. They might have a minute or two between rounds but the second pairings go up you're gonna be ditched. Well you can play in the tournament next time, if you want. Too late now.
3. It's not the purpose of a league
Before anyone gets mad at me, I'm very well aware that leagues can and do run tournaments often. Some leagues are tournaments every week. But the true purpose of a league is to create a friendly, warm environment in which people can play and discuss Pokemon. It's meant to bring people together. Tournaments flipped as fast as we possibly can, that take up the weeknight and often go late, that are paid entry for most players, don't create a good environment. If it's someone's first time at league? Totally off-putting. So glad you came!
TL;DR: BR's were an 'extra'. LC's are an 'instead of'. I'm not fond of the difference.
My main beeves (yes that is a valid plural of beef) are as follows:
1. Too much time.
Leagues are a 2-3 hour block. That's just not enough time to run anything bigger than a 16 person (per division) tournament, and even 16 is pushing it. You've got time for maybe 4 rounds (allowing 38 minutes per round including round flipping and a 30 min reg) before you're outside your normal time slot. With Battle Roads, they were 99% of the time on weekends so time wasn't near as much an issue. Sure, you can move your registration time to before your league is supposed to begin, but what about the families that have events before league? They're used to you starting at a particular time, so when you don't they are faced with the options of come late and watch, or ditch another event to get to yours on time.
2. Creates an exclusionary feeling for those not playing and ties up LL/LO
This is something I noticed with my own league. Yes, we announce things beforehand and yes, it's only one day a season, but oftentimes I have people come to my league only once or twice a season. If they come on a LC night, their night is shot. Anyone without a legal deck and/or urge to play and/or entry fee is left off by themselves in a kind of corner of shame. It's my responsibility to help them feel included, but how do I do that while manning the computer or judging? I can't devote any sizable chunk of time to them without risking neglecting my tournament. I can ask (quietly) any player who might be comfortable not playing to go and keep them company instead, particularly professors, but it's not enough. It's a pity throw and they know it. My kids that like playing with older cards? Guess what, you gotta play with no one but your siblings for the umpteenth time. Sorry, can't trade. No, none of them can trade either, we're all busy. They might have a minute or two between rounds but the second pairings go up you're gonna be ditched. Well you can play in the tournament next time, if you want. Too late now.
3. It's not the purpose of a league
Before anyone gets mad at me, I'm very well aware that leagues can and do run tournaments often. Some leagues are tournaments every week. But the true purpose of a league is to create a friendly, warm environment in which people can play and discuss Pokemon. It's meant to bring people together. Tournaments flipped as fast as we possibly can, that take up the weeknight and often go late, that are paid entry for most players, don't create a good environment. If it's someone's first time at league? Totally off-putting. So glad you came!
TL;DR: BR's were an 'extra'. LC's are an 'instead of'. I'm not fond of the difference.
ShadowCard
Active Member
In response:
1) league challenges do not have to occur in the league's time slot. If your league is a Wednesday evening, you can schedule it on a Saturday morning. It doesn't even have to be in the same venue so you are not restricted to the league venue's availability. It would be the same thing with a BR anyway. There is no difference here.
2) "It's my responsibility to help them feel included, but how do I do that while manning the computer or judging? I can't devote any sizable chunk of time to them without risking neglecting my tournament."
You are confusing the roles. As TO, you are supposed to be manning the computer or judging, if that is what you choose. That takes priority over any league responsibility because you are the TO. You are not the LO on duty at the time. As LO, you should have an assigned LL who works to help the player feel included in any league activity occurring at the same time as the tournament. That LL should not be tied up with tournament operations because that is not his role.
Again, you can schedule them in a different time block than league. If you don't have someone else who can be LL, then there should be no league that day so you can focus on the tournament. If players come not realizing that the LC is that day and don't have a legal deck, invite them to stay and play if there is room but no league points should be awarded because the schedule says it is a tournament day. It would be this way if the LC was a BR instead: if a BR takes place on your league day, the TO informs any players in the same situation that there is no league but they are welcoming to stay and play for fun, space permitting, but no league points should be awarded because it is not a league time.
If there is a concern about losing league time, the league calendar does provide between season weeks that can be used for league challenges. Double point days can also be used to offset lost league time if you must schedule during the same time as league.
3) "League Challenge" is only a name. Do not confuse "league challenge" as being a league activity. Players who attend only a league challenge do not get credit for being at league. It is a sanctioned, premier tournament. It should not be someone's first time at league because it is not league.
tl;dr: LCs are NOT an "instead of." They are just like any other sanctioned, premier challenge.
1) league challenges do not have to occur in the league's time slot. If your league is a Wednesday evening, you can schedule it on a Saturday morning. It doesn't even have to be in the same venue so you are not restricted to the league venue's availability. It would be the same thing with a BR anyway. There is no difference here.
2) "It's my responsibility to help them feel included, but how do I do that while manning the computer or judging? I can't devote any sizable chunk of time to them without risking neglecting my tournament."
You are confusing the roles. As TO, you are supposed to be manning the computer or judging, if that is what you choose. That takes priority over any league responsibility because you are the TO. You are not the LO on duty at the time. As LO, you should have an assigned LL who works to help the player feel included in any league activity occurring at the same time as the tournament. That LL should not be tied up with tournament operations because that is not his role.
Again, you can schedule them in a different time block than league. If you don't have someone else who can be LL, then there should be no league that day so you can focus on the tournament. If players come not realizing that the LC is that day and don't have a legal deck, invite them to stay and play if there is room but no league points should be awarded because the schedule says it is a tournament day. It would be this way if the LC was a BR instead: if a BR takes place on your league day, the TO informs any players in the same situation that there is no league but they are welcoming to stay and play for fun, space permitting, but no league points should be awarded because it is not a league time.
If there is a concern about losing league time, the league calendar does provide between season weeks that can be used for league challenges. Double point days can also be used to offset lost league time if you must schedule during the same time as league.
3) "League Challenge" is only a name. Do not confuse "league challenge" as being a league activity. Players who attend only a league challenge do not get credit for being at league. It is a sanctioned, premier tournament. It should not be someone's first time at league because it is not league.
tl;dr: LCs are NOT an "instead of." They are just like any other sanctioned, premier challenge.
Bigbowlr1037
New Member
I prefer battle roads. In my area I could hit 4-6 BRs within an hour if I wanted. LCs I have 1 I can go to and id have to skip my league to play in it which I don't always like doing. I went to 2 LCs this year whereas I was going to 3-4 BRs in the fall and 3-4 BRs in spring. I wouldn't mind having BRs in spring and fall again because it gives me something to do other then States and Regionals. Bring back BRs for the places without a lot of people playing in them. My league has pretty much become 2 pokemon guys, and a few former pokemon guys playing DC or Street Fighter
To me there is no question BRs were much much better than LCs.
With BRs you got the big tournament feel in a local location, now the big tournament feel is all gone. There was also most people from the area at every BR, now with LCs there are so many of them that you will never see all your friends at one LC.
Winning a BR often meant something, but winning a LC just means you can beat a bunch of 5 year olds.
I will admit that I am out of the game right now and have actually never been to an LC, but I do say that what I loved about the game was what happened at a BR, now that is gone. That is a shame.
With BRs you got the big tournament feel in a local location, now the big tournament feel is all gone. There was also most people from the area at every BR, now with LCs there are so many of them that you will never see all your friends at one LC.
Winning a BR often meant something, but winning a LC just means you can beat a bunch of 5 year olds.
I will admit that I am out of the game right now and have actually never been to an LC, but I do say that what I loved about the game was what happened at a BR, now that is gone. That is a shame.
You had me agreeing with you, but lmao dude
Mystery Thing
Administrator
This is exactly why LCs are better - or, more accurately, what you just described is exactly why BRs weren't working. They weren't ever supposed to have a "big tournament feel," and their intent wasn't to have "people from every area." They were supposed to be the most basic, friendly, entry-level premier tournament where people can be eased into competitive level tournaments without having to worry about being crushed by people rushing them from outside for the CP. But with how few there were and how much people were wanting the CP from them, they almost instantly became too bloated and too cut-throat for what they were.
I'm not saying you're wrong in wanting that "big tournament feel," but BRs were never intended to be where you find that experience, and the switch to LCs alleviated that problem.
I never thought i would ever agree with you but i do on this statement.
Charranitar
Member
My only real beef with league challenges is how Pokemon has gone about approving Leagues to run League Challenges. This has left St. Louis, one of the largest Pokemon communities in the United States with just 2 League Challenges per a block, resulting in what I believe to be less League Challenges for us last season than there were Battle Roads in past seasons (since Battle Roads didn't have to be connected to a league). I would much prefer them to separate League Challenges from the invite structure and make City Championships a year round thing.
I would really like to see them expand City Championships into 3/4 blocks across the year, adjust the invite structure to compensate (perhaps raise it by 50-75 points), and then do best finish limit of 2 for each block of City Championships.
Basically the season could look like:
Fall: City Championships + Fall Regionals
Winter: City Championships + Winter Regionals
Spring: State Championships + Spring Regionals
Summer: City Championships + National Championships
The reason I would like to see more City Championships is for the prize support. For me, the opportunity to win a box of cards for first place, paying in $10, is much more attractive to me than paying in $5 and getting a promo, and maybe some packs if I'm lucky. I don't think there is a better tournament block than City Championships as far as entry fee/prize payout goes. They're very well done, and provide good incentive to get out and play.
I would really like to see them expand City Championships into 3/4 blocks across the year, adjust the invite structure to compensate (perhaps raise it by 50-75 points), and then do best finish limit of 2 for each block of City Championships.
Basically the season could look like:
Fall: City Championships + Fall Regionals
Winter: City Championships + Winter Regionals
Spring: State Championships + Spring Regionals
Summer: City Championships + National Championships
The reason I would like to see more City Championships is for the prize support. For me, the opportunity to win a box of cards for first place, paying in $10, is much more attractive to me than paying in $5 and getting a promo, and maybe some packs if I'm lucky. I don't think there is a better tournament block than City Championships as far as entry fee/prize payout goes. They're very well done, and provide good incentive to get out and play.
BRs - i show up, judge, and leave
LCs - wait for store to give me a date (oh same as 2 others in the area), wait for the LC cards to arrive (just did last week for this week's LC *whew*), update the store computer with latest version of TOM (messes up things but luckily the person updating all of Tom Shea's laptops was in attendance and was able to solve), discover that JAVA has been deleted (luckily another dad would get it to work though now to execute TOM have to follow a 2 or 3 step process which i'm hoping will work this weekend), upload the file (and hope there's no issues that can't be resolved). I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this LC has no surprises.
LCs - wait for store to give me a date (oh same as 2 others in the area), wait for the LC cards to arrive (just did last week for this week's LC *whew*), update the store computer with latest version of TOM (messes up things but luckily the person updating all of Tom Shea's laptops was in attendance and was able to solve), discover that JAVA has been deleted (luckily another dad would get it to work though now to execute TOM have to follow a 2 or 3 step process which i'm hoping will work this weekend), upload the file (and hope there's no issues that can't be resolved). I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this LC has no surprises.
Mainejuggalo
New Member
I preferred the higher level of competition at battle roads. People just don't seem to like the LC's as much at our league.
TheRolesWePlay
New Member
The only really major complaints I really have about LCs is the sheer number of them, it's difficult to keep up with all of them, and while as a player I'm not obligated to be there, there are still needs for the staff to be present and for them to be organized.
I just imagine that the organizers have a lot of time eaten up by them is all, especially since we may be seeing more VG events in the coming year.
On a more positive note, they do make good events for those wanting to just have fun and experiment with deck ideas without high stakes, so that's always a great.
I just imagine that the organizers have a lot of time eaten up by them is all, especially since we may be seeing more VG events in the coming year.
On a more positive note, they do make good events for those wanting to just have fun and experiment with deck ideas without high stakes, so that's always a great.
ShadowCard
Active Member
Something else to point out...
LCs have the potential to offer more prizes than BRs did for equivalent numbers. PTOs were never allowed to adjust the prizes to consider higher-than-expected/target attendance. It was top 4 at 4/4/2/2 and that was it. A LC TO is able to add to that and not just in packs: gift certificates/cards, card sleeves, other pokemon product, VG items. Yes, it is probably not for free like BRs but more players have the chance to walk away from the event with more than they would have had it been a BR. Some organizers give a pack to all players. At LCs, you can award prizes beyond 4th place. At BRs, with 33+ players in an age division, it was 4 packs for 1st place for 33+ players playing 6 rounds?
None of that is LC specific. That is organizer specific. The (P)TO who would have run your BRs would have stumbled across the same issues. You just never saw them.
In events I have played in--LCs make it possible for me to play while the only thing I could do in BRs was judge--I see more of a variety of decks but that might be because attendance is lower--16 in a division instead of 33--that they are more noticeable. If anything, players are more willing to experiment in LCs.
But the need for staff should be seen as a good thing. As I said in my first post, it creates opportunities for new people to step into staff roles. Some (P)TOs use the same judges for all of their events. There was little opportunity for anyone new. LCs create opportunities to find new people and the smaller size of LCs mean they can start in events that are easier for someone on their level to handle. Of course, TOs have to find new people and people have to be willing/interested in being on staff. Some amount of staff support from TPCi would be helpful for that *nods*.
I run two LCs a season. For one of them, it is a location that could never get a BR for scheduling reasons. LCs are more flexible. For me, yes, it is an increase in time "eaten up." However, as I said before, LCs mean I can also play more. Playing in a BR was always tricky for me to do.
LCs have the potential to offer more prizes than BRs did for equivalent numbers. PTOs were never allowed to adjust the prizes to consider higher-than-expected/target attendance. It was top 4 at 4/4/2/2 and that was it. A LC TO is able to add to that and not just in packs: gift certificates/cards, card sleeves, other pokemon product, VG items. Yes, it is probably not for free like BRs but more players have the chance to walk away from the event with more than they would have had it been a BR. Some organizers give a pack to all players. At LCs, you can award prizes beyond 4th place. At BRs, with 33+ players in an age division, it was 4 packs for 1st place for 33+ players playing 6 rounds?
Basically, LCs are giving you an insight into everything a (P)TO experienced when running BRs for you! :wink:
None of that is LC specific. That is organizer specific. The (P)TO who would have run your BRs would have stumbled across the same issues. You just never saw them.
It is interesting. LCs have the same CPs as BRs but the players don't descend on them like they did BRs. I think the BFL is wrong for them. Having BFL=6 for all LCs, which was 6 seasons this year (would be 8 events next year unless the number of seasons is greatly reduced), enabled players to go to as many early LCs as possible and then discontinue playing in the later LCs when they reach BFL. A BFL on each season's LC would mean a player would instead have to spread out their gameplay across more of the year, ensuring their attendance and competition. Instead of 6 1sts in Chespin, make it 1 1st in Chespin-Chesnaught. However, maybe it is a good thing that you can squeeze in all of your LCs early on? If the more-competitive players rush to get to BFL early and then stop coming, it leaves open a niche for less-competitive players to then start earning CPs and prizes that they would have had less chance of earning if they had to battle those players whose primary reason for wanting to play in the LC is the CPs.
In events I have played in--LCs make it possible for me to play while the only thing I could do in BRs was judge--I see more of a variety of decks but that might be because attendance is lower--16 in a division instead of 33--that they are more noticeable. If anything, players are more willing to experiment in LCs.
An interesting contrast to what Charranitar said that there are not enough LCs in his area.
But the need for staff should be seen as a good thing. As I said in my first post, it creates opportunities for new people to step into staff roles. Some (P)TOs use the same judges for all of their events. There was little opportunity for anyone new. LCs create opportunities to find new people and the smaller size of LCs mean they can start in events that are easier for someone on their level to handle. Of course, TOs have to find new people and people have to be willing/interested in being on staff. Some amount of staff support from TPCi would be helpful for that *nods*.
Some organizers have more free time on their hands. LCs being smaller, the organizer doesn't have to devote a large chunk of the day to run them. LCs aren't all run by PTOs like BRs were. If a league has multiple LL/TOs, each one can take a turn running an event so the same TO is not running each LC at the location.
I run two LCs a season. For one of them, it is a location that could never get a BR for scheduling reasons. LCs are more flexible. For me, yes, it is an increase in time "eaten up." However, as I said before, LCs mean I can also play more. Playing in a BR was always tricky for me to do.
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Poke Trainer J
New Member
I didn't like how matches in Battle Roads were Best of 1 instead of Best 2 out of 3 (which were only reserved for players who made Top Cut by going undefeated) to help reduce the game's luck factor while my main complaint about League Challenge was tying against my opponent's due to time constraints. While League Challenge might not have the "big tournament" feel that Battle Roads had it feels more casual than competitive so I guess that's probably a good thing for the game overall since you don't feel pressured into making a possible misplay that could cost you a match.
LCs should not be part of a Worlds invite. Either that, or they shouldn't be treated as easy-going tournaments. Earning over 10% of your Worlds invite by playing in these small tournaments full of casual players is a joke, especially in less competitive areas. The same could probably have been said for Battle Roads.
TheRolesWePlay
New Member
I'll admit my complaints were more nitpicks than anything and concerns of what may happen. Not to mention that leagues are more plentiful here than in other areas, and my PTO tries to balance them so they don't collide with each other and bigger tournaments, which may not be the case for other areas.
All in all though I'm pretty happy with LCs.
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I disagree, while a fair amount of CP can be accumulated you still need to attend quite a few of them to achieve that. It's more rewarding players that take the initiative to play in smaller events as well, plus one still needs to participate in larger events for it to even matter anyway.
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