Life without Claydol?

[SPARTA]

nothin but the dog in me."

Sit, Heel, Roll Over, Beg.
BEG
BEG

Good boy.

When is everybody gonna understand that we don't NEED Claydol or Uxie or any insane draw staple? We use them b/c they make our decks quicker and incredibly consistent. If they were axed most decks would still match up accordingly, but wouldn't have the draw/set up speed. The world won't end if we don't have a draw staple and If u have a deck that depends on said staple you should rethink deck strategy.

True enough, and I am glad you pointed that out. But for this format, Claydol and Uxie have almost been a necessity due to the weakness of raw draw cards we have been getting recently, which as we can see will be changing quite soon.

And yes, as we see in Scizor you don't NEED a draw staple, but you must admit that spending 2-4 spots for consistent draw the entire game is usually well worth it in decks that can afford the space, and that 1 slot spent on Uxie can really come in handy sometimes.

 

[FLCLFANMAN]

Sit, Heel, Roll Over, Beg.
BEG
BEG

Good boy.



True enough, and I am glad you pointed that out. But for this format, Claydol and Uxie have almost been a necessity due to the weakness of raw draw cards we have been getting recently, which as we can see will be changing quite soon.

And yes, as we see in Scizor you don't NEED a draw staple, but you must admit that spending 2-4 spots for consistent draw the entire game is usually well worth it in decks that can afford the space, and that 1 slot spent on Uxie can really come in handy sometimes.

Absolutely a extra deck slot can be used to optimize draw, hence these cards make our decks more consistent. I just kinda get annoyed when some people think the sky's going to fall if we lose Claydol. Trust me, it wont. There would still be strategy if this kind of draw power didn't exist.

Although its true we've not had a slew of Steven-esque supports (except Cynthia's) its not necessarily a bad thing. A decline in draw power could lead to the resurgence of other decks that can't be played b/c of the current draw options cough*darkwing duck* cough.

In my perfect world, draw cards would be balanced and usable to the point where you aren't obligated to run them. But since I live in this world, I might as well play in it :lol:

Its true

 

[SPARTA]

An excellent point, in fact I was wondering if the people who decide how the game would be run were using this to see what would happen if the entire format were dependent on Pokemon for draw by making nothing but terrible straight draw and only having gopd shuffle and draw, with the obligatory discard and draw

 

[FLCLFANMAN]

An excellent point, in fact I was wondering if the people who decide how the game would be run were using this to see what would happen if the entire format were dependent on Pokemon for draw by making nothing but terrible straight draw and only having gopd shuffle and draw, with the obligatory discard and draw

I'd like to see that too. This would also show the level of commitment players have to the game. Usually when a game cycles out/ bans abusable staples and replace them with balanced versions, alot of people quit since they can't speed through the game. Those that do stay/join show their dedication and increase their skill level by playing in these slower,strategic metas.

This is all speculation though. I don't know if Nintendo is ready to slow down a fast paced game marketed towards kids.

 

[SPARTA]

I'd like to see that too. This would also show the level of commitment players have to the game. Usually when a game cycles out/ bans abusable staples and replace them with balanced versions, alot of people quit since they can't speed through the game. Those that do stay/join show their dedication and increase their skill level by playing in these slower,strategic metas.

This is all speculation though. I don't know if Nintendo is ready to slow down a fast paced game marketed towards kids.

To be fair Nintendo doesn't make this game, they simply own it. Cards are made by PCL, Pokemon Card Laboratories, and the actual tournaments are run by PUI and POP.

And again, this is speculation, but it does make sense, seeing as how they have done things like this in the past (for example, they saw at a tournament in Japan that Absol SW was wrecking the format, so they printed Claydol GE to have a way around it. Even Baltoy allows you a way around Absol). PCL takes a genuine interest in the game, and would appear to try to keep things "balanced" with cards.

 

[FLCLFANMAN]

Oh I see. Well even in your example it seems like PCL did more harm than good. Sure you stop hand control decks, but you inadvertantly advertise the greatest draw engine in the games history.

Despite this, I do give them credit for trying to counter what they see as problems in the meta. Some games ignore problems/complaints cough* Duelmasters*cough

So I'm guessing Mesprit(LA), Glaceon x (MD) and AMpharos (PT) was their response to the Claydol/Uxie Shenanigans? :biggrin:

 

[SPARTA]

Possibly, though Uxie seems more a complete and total "death to hand control" card.
I genuinly believe they didn't think Mesprit would be as good as it was, I mean its a basic with a one use power and a (P)(P) attack to make it really only good in Psychic deck, it seems like it wouldn't be THAT good.
As for Ampharos, I don't think it was a counter just for Claydol, but an anti power card in general. Combined with Ampharos SW, you can't use supporters without stopping your powers.

 

[FLCLFANMAN]

Possibly, though Uxie seems more a complete and total "death to hand control" card.
I genuinly believe they didn't think Mesprit would be as good as it was, I mean its a basic with a one use power and a (P)(P) attack to make it really only good in Psychic deck, it seems like it wouldn't be THAT good.
As for Ampharos, I don't think it was a counter just for Claydol, but an anti power card in general. Combined with Ampharos SW, you can't use supporters without stopping your powers.

I see. Well put.

I guess it works out since it doubles as solid Claydol hate :thumb:

 

[octillery49]

After your Uxies get power sprayed a few times, come back here and tell me that Uxie is better than Claydol.

I know!!!! Everybody's worried about Amphy locking there Claydols, but Power Spray kills uxie even worse. Plus a well built G deck is a better deck than Amphy any day.

 

[Magnechu]

Okay, anyone that doesn't play Claydol in 90% of their decks this format is an idiot. G decks don't need it (usually) because they can run off Uxie and Cyrus and they don't have the room for Claydol. Generally, though, everything else runs it. I can think of maybe one decent deck that doesn't run it besides Toxicroak (Palkia still runs Claydol though).

The Supporters this format SUCK. Period. Cynthia's is the ONLY good draw card, Felicity's is mediocre at best. And Cynthia's is bad. When in combo with 2-2 Claydol and 2 Uxie, 3-4 Cynthia is good though to get around power lock. I'm not sure what this "Volkner" card does, but I'm sure it will replace Claydol. Every format needs a draw engine and hopefully that will be next years. But, this year, Claydol is the way to go. And if you don't play it, you're going to be left in the dust.

 

[FLCLFANMAN]

Okay, anyone that doesn't play Claydol in 90% of their decks this format is an idiot. G decks don't need it (usually) because they can run off Uxie and Cyrus and they don't have the room for Claydol. Generally, though, everything else runs it. I can think of maybe one decent deck that doesn't run it besides Toxicroak (Palkia still runs Claydol though).

The Supporters this format SUCK. Period. Cynthia's is the ONLY good draw card, Felicity's is mediocre at best. And Cynthia's is bad. When in combo with 2-2 Claydol and 2 Uxie, 3-4 Cynthia is good though to get around power lock. I'm not sure what this "Volkner" card does, but I'm sure it will replace Claydol. Every format needs a draw engine and hopefully that will be next years. But, this year, Claydol is the way to go. And if you don't play it, you're going to be left in the dust.

Lolwut?

Volkners is more of a Steven's advice than a Claydol backup.

The real Claydol backup is Snorlax Lvl X if we ever get him. He's a Claydol that can actually attack

and every format DOES NOT need a draw card. Like I said earlier, we use them to make are decks more efficient (and in some cases playable). If these draw cards didn't exist gameplay and strategy would still be important.

 

[Scipio]

Okay, anyone that doesn't play Claydol in 90% of their decks this format is an idiot.

See, this is what I dislike about some people. Not just you Magnechu, but certain others who go around calling people who don't conform with their views "Idiots". You know who I'm talking about.
So you're saying that most of the Dutch Cities winners have been idiots? Most wins were without Claydol and with Uxie and Unown R. You're saying that these persons are idiots?

What is it with some of you and just flaming everyone who doesn't conform to your view and your view only?

 

[Naki Feralkin]

Volkner's Philosophy allows you to draw cards until you have 7 in your hand? And you can discard a card before you use the draw effect.

I'd say with Uxie's, he's good enough for me.

 

[SPARTA]

See, this is what I dislike about some people. Not just you Magnechu, but certain others who go around calling people who don't conform with their views "Idiots". You know who I'm talking about.
So you're saying that most of the Dutch Cities winners have been idiots? Most wins were without Claydol and with Uxie and Unown R. You're saying that these persons are idiots?

What is it with some of you and just flaming everyone who doesn't conform to your view and your view only?

Because our view is right and has been proven. Almost every deck that has down well during BR's, Cities, and last format (even when we still had good draw AND power lock was more prominent), and it would be idiotic to assume things are going to change when... one more deck has the ability to power lock and cause a problem (SP decks).

I mean really, idiots might be a strong word for those who don't use Claydol in most of their decks, I would more describe them as...
...
...wait.
...proven over two formats with no alternative, continuous, reliable draw power given to us
No, never mind, idiot works just fine.

 

[amphy#1]

Because our view is right and has been proven. Almost every deck that has down well during BR's, Cities, and last format (even when we still had good draw AND power lock was more prominent), and it would be idiotic to assume things are going to change when... one more deck has the ability to power lock and cause a problem (SP decks).

I mean really, idiots might be a strong word for those who don't use Claydol in most of their decks, I would more describe them as...
...
...wait.
...proven over two formats with no alternative, continuous, reliable draw power given to us
No, never mind, idiot works just fine.

Everyone does not play the same, nor do they think the same or have the same stategies as some people do. Yes we all know how good Claydol is, but it is not for everyone. Some decks don't need him, and some can't work without it, and most people rely on it to much, to the point to where that if they don't have something like a Claydolish draw engine than it is'nt good. What about the people who can't aford or borrow Claydol? Why would you call them idiots? I agree with you we do need better draw stuff, but can't you say somthing nice like "Claydol works well not only for me, but for most players. It would be wise for you to consider it too. If you don't use him then I wish you the best of luck."
See... Its not that hard to be nice. I know you like to get to the point in your post sometimes, but even people who post whom you've never met have feelings too and no pokemon player shall be called a idiot (mabee some yugioh players).

 

[Scipio]

Because our view is right and has been proven. Almost every deck that has down well during BR's, Cities, and last format (even when we still had good draw AND power lock was more prominent), and it would be idiotic to assume things are going to change when... one more deck has the ability to power lock and cause a problem (SP decks).

I mean really, idiots might be a strong word for those who don't use Claydol in most of their decks, I would more describe them as...
...
...wait.
...proven over two formats with no alternative, continuous, reliable draw power given to us
No, never mind, idiot works just fine.

Like I said, go and take that up with all CC winners here, barely any Claydol. What you're doing is plain insulting. You don't HAVE to agree with someone if his views clash with yours, but they do have a right to say whatever they want as long as there is logic in it.
Simple fact is that there are plenty of decks who don't need Claydol to preform well. Heck, we even saw Claydol-less Kingdra winning a CC here.
Let's look at the Top 10 CC decks, shall we?

Dusknoir - Has been proven to work perfectly fine without Claydol. 1-0
Kingdra - Really likes Claydol if it doesn't donk. 1-1
Regigigas - Can use Claydol but is often seen working without it. 2-1
Machamp - It uses Claydol? Really? Winning lists don't seem to do so. 3-1
Tyranitar - Yeah, he really likes Claydol. 3-2
Gengar - Has no need for Claydol since Uxie works perfectly for him. 4-2
AMU - Most obvious deck here to not need Claydol. 5-2
Torterra/Sceptile - NEEDS Claydol to stay consistent. 5-3
Magnezone - Appreciates Claydol definitely, find it hard to imagine it without it. 5-4
Scizor/Cherrim - Uses no draw pokemon to begin with, so no Claydol. 6-4

Would you look at that, 60% of the top decks were PERFECTLY FINE without Claydol. Don't try to tell me that that is just my meta now.
Sure, they CAN use Claydol. They ALL can as its just a good card period. But when 6 out of 10 top decks can work perfectly fine without it, I don't think 90% of the decks suddenly NEED Claydol, do they now?
Donk decks don't need Claydol. So most SP decks and Rampardos won't have a need for it either. Thats 2 more potentional tier 1 decks who don't require Claydol.

Yeah. Idiots huh?

And oh, nitpicking about last format, but until Claydol we didn't have great draw. Too often did that Absol horribly ruin games...

 

[butlerforhire]

Volkner's is not on the same level as Claydol. If I remember right, it basically is Cosmic Power in a Supporter, which means you can only use the effect 4 times per game in most circumstances, usually not in succession either unless you draw into all of them at once, and it also means you are using up your Supporter for the turn, hindering your ability to play that critical Bebe's or Roseanne's, etc..

I think everyone should enjoy their time with Claydol now while it is still around and worry about next format once it arrives.

 

[Ardoptres]

Gengar should use Claydol.

Scizor/Cherrim? You might as well include the SW Magmortar starter deck.

 

[butlerforhire]

Claydol certainly helps Dusknoir, Gengar, and Machamp. Why do people think that an Uxie drop or two is enough to take a deck with no other draw power all the way through a drawn-out game? Set Up is the initial spark and Cosmic Power just keeps the fire burning. If the Machamp player doesn't get a quick Take Out win, they're going to want Cosmic Power at their disposal. Gengar is best as a swarm deck, and how is that stage 2 swarm going to be achieved without consistent deck cycling? Dusknoir does have Shadow Command on top of Uxie, but drawing 2 is not as good as drawing 2 after drawing whatever Cosmic Power yields (or drawing 2 before Cosmic Power). Claydol can be run as low as 1-1 and still function fine, and you'd be hard pressed to argue that those 2 slots would be better filled with something else in any deck aside from those that are obviously not compatible such as Scizor, or that have specific support outside of Claydol like Cyrus's Conspirary in SP and the Felicity's/Uxie engine of Regigigas (although even in these decks, Claydol is certainly not a hindrance).

 

[SPARTA]

Like I said, go and take that up with all CC winners here, barely any Claydol. What you're doing is plain insulting. You don't HAVE to agree with someone if his views clash with yours, but they do have a right to say whatever they want as long as there is logic in it.

And I have every right to argue it with logic as well, as well as the right to support an insult I feel was justified towards the group I am arguing against.

If you find the insult offensive, feel free to report it to a Mod or Admin, its why they are there. Otherwise go inform someone who actually cares.

Simple fact is that there are plenty of decks who don't need Claydol to preform well. Heck, we even saw Claydol-less Kingdra winning a CC here.

I saw Magnezone/Blissey/Dusknoir/Palkia win a CC here. Winning 1 cc =/= a good deck.

Let's look at the Top 10 CC decks, shall we?

This should be good....

Dusknoir - Has been proven to work perfectly fine without Claydol. 1-0

Wrong, without Claydol you draw two cards per turn with a stage two, and have no way to decrease your hand size without the use of Claydol to decrease hand size and discard less cards.

1-0 for me, ty

Kingdra - Really likes Claydol if it doesn't donk. 1-1

Agreed, 2-0 for me.

Regigigas - Can use Claydol but is often seen working without it. 2-1

Works fine without Claydol, but it has almost no reason not to use it since it allows for more consistant and long term draw, meaning it works better with Claydol.

3-0 for me...

Machamp - It uses Claydol? Really? Winning lists don't seem to do so. 3-1

Machamp is complete and utter trash, a terrible pile of steaming crap with 3 donk attacks and one trash 4 energy attack. This wasn't a top deck at Cities, it was a terrible card that can donk t1, THATS IT.

This deck was not posted here, nor does it exist, still 3-0.

Tyranitar - Yeah, he really likes Claydol. 3-2

4-0....

Gengar - Has no need for Claydol since Uxie works perfectly for him. 4-2

Another terrible steaming pile of trash that donk's and fails. Once again you did not post this.

Still 4-0....

AMU - Most obvious deck here to not need Claydol. 5-2

1/2 good decks that does not use and really cannot use Claydol.

4-1

Torterra/Sceptile - NEEDS Claydol to stay consistent. 5-3

Agreed, 5-1

Magnezone - Appreciates Claydol definitely, find it hard to imagine it without it. 5-4

Well, yeah
6-1

Scizor/Cherrim - Uses no draw pokemon to begin with, so no Claydol. 6-4

The other good deck that does not need, nor can use, Claydol.

6-2

Would you look at that, 60% of the top decks were PERFECTLY FINE without Claydol. Don't try to tell me that that is just my meta now.

I count 75% using it. Even if we count the two complete piles of crap you DARE to call decks, that's 6-4 in my favor, 60% of these decks have no reason not to run Claydol to increase consistency.

Sure, they CAN use Claydol. They ALL can as its just a good card period. But when 6 out of 10 top decks can work perfectly fine without it, I don't think 90% of the decks suddenly NEED Claydol, do they now?
Donk decks don't need Claydol. So most SP decks and Rampardos won't have a need for it either. That's 2 more potentional tier 1 decks who don't require Claydol.

This post falls apart with what I posted above. Your failure is overwhelming.

Yeah. Idiots huh?

Completely, glad we agree

And oh, nitpicking about last format, but until Claydol we didn't have great draw. Too often did that Absol horribly ruin games...

Steven's Advice says hi, you mean we didn't have CONSISTENT draw, which we didn't (not counting Delcatty PK). And we still only have consistant draw in the form of Claydol. I mean really....