comparing hitmonchan to this isn't really fair. Haymaker's entire strat was to take prizes from turns 1-6 and use weakness and low costing hard hitting attacks to its advantage. As for neo-on, losing a Round because you started with a baby and they started with tyrouge, made every person cringe. And even then tyrouge was something that could go into any deck so it was perfectly fine to put in 1 tyrouge on the off chance that you win t1. Mario on the other hand is clunky at best. sure it has tyrouge's off chance to win t1 and thats fine. No one really complains on how broken riolu is. The gripe most people have with this deck is that machamp is in here just because he's fighting and you can make a cool sounding deck name using MA and RIO. Now sure his attacks aren't bad, but thats not why the deck is a questionable choice at best. The reason why people don't like it is because its inconsistant(which is the total opposite of what haymaker was). The reason why its inconsistant is because not only are you building up lucarios with limited draw, your also using 10+ spots on the machamp. People complain about donk wins by mario only because if the person got tails, chances are, they probably would have been in good position to win.
Mario: Why?
- Thread starter desert eagle
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comparing hitmonchan to this isn't really fair. Haymaker's entire strat was to take prizes from turns 1-6 and use weakness and low costing hard hitting attacks to its advantage. As for neo-on, losing a Round because you started with a baby and they started with tyrouge, made every person cringe. And even then tyrouge was something that could go into any deck so it was perfectly fine to put in 1 tyrouge on the off chance that you win t1. Mario on the other hand is clunky at best. sure it has tyrouge's off chance to win t1 and thats fine. No one really complains on how broken riolu is. The gripe most people have with this deck is that machamp is in here just because he's fighting and you can make a cool sounding deck name using MA and RIO. Now sure his attacks aren't bad, but thats not why the deck is a questionable choice at best. The reason why people don't like it is because its inconsistant(which is the total opposite of what haymaker was). The reason why its inconsistant is because not only are you building up lucarios with limited draw, your also using 10+ spots on the machamp. People complain about donk wins by mario only because if the person got tails, chances are, they probably would have been in good position to win.
Sandslash7
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Even if the luck skill ratio was 80-20 Skill-luck, that still could have happened. There is almost no way to accuratly find a luck-skill ratio at all. So basically that was just nonsense. (becuase it is nearly impossible to quantize a luck factor for anything as complex as Pokemon)
Plus, you're now saying that the guy who won didn't have the skill to make it to worlds.
PokePop: Indeed, I remember those days.
Besides, isn't the T1 win one of the best ways you can win? Seriously, who WOULDN'T take a chance at that T1 Candy-Pidgeot-DRE on a weak Feebas start. Or even just go for the T1 Blastoise ex 2x NRG Rain + Holon's Electrode + 1x NRG Rain? Or T1 Mentor + Great Ball Psychic NRG on Solrock for the KO? Or the infamous T1 Candy-DRE-Ape d0nk?
See my point? T1 wins happen all over the place. It's just becuase Mario has to flip, suddenly those wins mean nothing.
In fact, those wins should mean more, becuase they were against bad odds.
It seems like there are actually 2 things wrong with Mario, from my perusing of this thread. T1 wins with Riolu, and Machamp. Some of you say it's Machamp, some the T1 wins. Which is it? Both? 1/the other? Make up your mind.
SHPanda said:
Well, that sure sounds like Mario, except the game might take a few more turns.
KingGengar
New Member
There it is. The key to the whole thing. The chance of that happening in "real life" should be "atrociously low."
"Real life" meaning that, in the world of certain player, such things should not, *cannot*, be.
"Atrociously low" meaning that (1) how atrocious to have such a thing happen to you, never mind doing it to someone else; it's a matter of manners, and class, now, and (2) the odds of such a thing happening to you should be as getting hit by lightning, almost nil. In other words, Riolu should be banned.
Keep in mind, he's talking about LUCARIO, not Machamp! So, the diss is now on Lucarilutions, Ramen Truk, etc because whether or not that is the main strategy, Riolu does it there TOO!
So, it's not really about Machamp because we have *two* Machamps, PK and DP, and PK may be the better in this environment. And it's not really about Lucario because the authors of the article use it also quite a bit.
Wow...
Wow...
I didn't realize that was the issue. No more cool sounding names.
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desert eagle
New Member
The difference is that with Oak and non-supporter stuff, you can consistently get wins like that, while with Mario, the chance is miniscule and you need some crazy luck to pull it off even once-twice in a tournament, let alone FIVE times.
Edit: Especially since this grinder win is one of the main arguments the pro-mario group likes to use. Lucarilutions is only slightly less capable of winning T1, yet I've never heard of a Lucarilutions player winning T1.
Edit 2: "Scrub" means you argue against the BEST way to win and don't play it. People who are arguing that "Blissey is too cheap" right now are scrubs, since it is the most effiecient winning card at the moment. If winning T1 was the most consistent and effiecient strategy, I would play it NO DOUBT. The chances of this mario T1 are so low that unlucky players like me will never hit it, meaning we will never play it.
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Nu Gundam
New Member
Maybe I didn't pick my words properly (as the term "atrocious" was a bit too far), but I never said anything ill about the Lucario line as I also played around with Lucario as well. I was only responding to Prime's comment about how we should give props to Mario because it T1 "donk'd" 5 times as I felt commending a deck for pulling off such feat is bad. Way to put your words into my mouth.
Sandslash: I never implied that the grinder winner does not have skill, but I was shocked at the amount of luck that person had when I heard about it.
Aaron :X
Kant: If you play this game any amount of time, you will donk someone T1 and get donked t1. It happens to everybody. True, sometimes it only happens in league or some other non premier event, but it happens.
As 'Pop said....t1 or t2 "donks" were a staple play "back in the day" of haymaker, etc. Many people cringed when they had a lone basic start going 2nd. The 'chan or tyrouge (which was splashed into MANY decks...they were in mine!!) for the oppo....OUCH.
Keith
As 'Pop said....t1 or t2 "donks" were a staple play "back in the day" of haymaker, etc. Many people cringed when they had a lone basic start going 2nd. The 'chan or tyrouge (which was splashed into MANY decks...they were in mine!!) for the oppo....OUCH.
Keith
Articjedi
Active Member
Considering the number of familiar faces at top cuts at nationals and worlds. I'd say that skill figures pretty well into it.
Oh and pokepop, haymaker wasn't built to get a T1 win. It was built to ko your opponents basics before the bigger stuff came up. It didn't win turn one unless your opponent was dumb enough to build their deck in such a way that haymaker could ko them on the first turn with a donk double pluspower. Those victories were rare, they didn't happen five times at a major tournament. Even Erika's jigglypuff didn't win on the first turn as often as it simply koed on the first turn.
Trapper on the other hand, did try to win on the first turn. If you wanted to hear complaints about cheap decks, that was it. It completely took skill out of the game and made it depend on the first guy to start the game. That deck was hated by everyone, noob, scrub, and elite.
I don't see anyone hating on the other lucario decks in this thread. But people claiming that mario is a good deck because someone got five T1 wins at a grinder is simply appalling. The same goes for the people that claim mario is bad because it gets T1 wins. It doesn't dig at the real reason why mario is a poorly built deck, and it all centers on that massive, clunky machamp line. It's like you're running two decks. One to support lucario, the other to support machamp. Back in pre-neo, players hated these types of half-aggressive decks because they couldn't work both ways.
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3 quick questions for you.
1) how many times have you vs'd Mario in a Premier? (last year and this)
2) (HONESTLY) how many times have you lost to it.
3) How is this not a Top Tier Deck. Just because you guys don't like the machamps doesn't mean the deck isn't a competitive deck.
KingGengar
New Member
Mike: no problem. I was pretty sure that wasn't what you meant, but it was too good to pass up ;-P
T1 donks didn't only happen in the beginning of the game. Does anyone remember Tyrogue and flipping 2 heads to KO the baby and win the game on T1?
T1 win isn't anything special. When we could use rare candies on T1, we had them every now and then. WHy make something special out of something... not so special?
LOL, I love the response to Big Red's questions. "I've never lost to Mario at a premier event in my entire life!"..."but I've never actually played against it at those tournaments either... LOL
T1 win isn't anything special. When we could use rare candies on T1, we had them every now and then. WHy make something special out of something... not so special?
LOL, I love the response to Big Red's questions. "I've never lost to Mario at a premier event in my entire life!"..."but I've never actually played against it at those tournaments either... LOL
It would be interesting to see the same answers to those 3 Qs from all the contributors to this article. Chad/Scizor (a big opponent of Mario), has never faced one in a premier event! It just shows you that different areas do have different metagames.
What I have observed in areas, judging/running events is this. First week or so of a series of events, certain decks do well. Players see these decks, either in action ag'st them, at the same tourney as them or read about it online. They say, Hey! that was a pretty good/awesome deck/combo. I can build that. I'll try it next week. Then, the deck gets played more and more. Before you know it, it becomes a staple in that region. Is it any surprise that Mario became a staple in the region KG played? (NC, SC and east TN) Yet...Mario, bc of the online publicity....moved on elsewhere and still won tourneys. So, ppl cannot say....it is due to the "weak metagame" or any other lame excuse that is out there.
Look at Flariados aka the Bug (as the Silvestros called it). Steve and John Silvestro tested the heck out of that deck, played it and did well with it. I recall the 1st time I saw it, in NC or SC states (March 2006)....John S won with it. John is like family to me, but besides that, the combo was great. My son enjoys decks with status effects anyway, so I built one for him and John was kind enough to give me some pointers too. My son played it quite abit, never having quite the success John and Steve had with it...but he loved the deck. he always seemed to have trouble with LBS in 2006. He finally figured it out and went on to finish a crushing 9th in the 2006 grinder (SRs) He was one of the last 4 unbeatens, then ran into his worst match up in next to last rd and then, got his 1st really bad start in the last rd, to miss out.
How many techs and decks were built in FL just to counter the Silvestros and "donkados"?? I know R-gon was one of the decks....there were others. Many people didnt care for the Bug due to the flippy nature of some of the cards used (ER2s, SSUs, Reversals) Did anyone ever doubt that Flariados was a top tier deck? I didnt. Yet, if you got t2'd by the trick of the Bug....yeah, you were ticked off...but realized that was part of said deck. Same with Mario....it gave you the ability to T1 or T2 someone, but also allowed for some staying power and comeback ability.
Many people say Kricket is a legit deck right now, tier 1 or 2. I've built it and played it. Ag'st a set up stage 2 deck, if they get anything going....you have a difficult time mid to late game.
I completely understand the argument agst Mario too.....it combines 2 differing types of play. Speed/rush w/ Lucario and a set up w/ a stage 2 line. Even KG told you and agreed with you....it shouldn't work, but it does for him and many others! (I dont even play Mario, I just know it is an effective deck.) I have never said Mario is BDIF....and I dont recall KG saying that either. He just says it is a good deck that he likes alot!
Keith
What I have observed in areas, judging/running events is this. First week or so of a series of events, certain decks do well. Players see these decks, either in action ag'st them, at the same tourney as them or read about it online. They say, Hey! that was a pretty good/awesome deck/combo. I can build that. I'll try it next week. Then, the deck gets played more and more. Before you know it, it becomes a staple in that region. Is it any surprise that Mario became a staple in the region KG played? (NC, SC and east TN) Yet...Mario, bc of the online publicity....moved on elsewhere and still won tourneys. So, ppl cannot say....it is due to the "weak metagame" or any other lame excuse that is out there.
Look at Flariados aka the Bug (as the Silvestros called it). Steve and John Silvestro tested the heck out of that deck, played it and did well with it. I recall the 1st time I saw it, in NC or SC states (March 2006)....John S won with it. John is like family to me, but besides that, the combo was great. My son enjoys decks with status effects anyway, so I built one for him and John was kind enough to give me some pointers too. My son played it quite abit, never having quite the success John and Steve had with it...but he loved the deck. he always seemed to have trouble with LBS in 2006. He finally figured it out and went on to finish a crushing 9th in the 2006 grinder (SRs) He was one of the last 4 unbeatens, then ran into his worst match up in next to last rd and then, got his 1st really bad start in the last rd, to miss out.
How many techs and decks were built in FL just to counter the Silvestros and "donkados"?? I know R-gon was one of the decks....there were others. Many people didnt care for the Bug due to the flippy nature of some of the cards used (ER2s, SSUs, Reversals) Did anyone ever doubt that Flariados was a top tier deck? I didnt. Yet, if you got t2'd by the trick of the Bug....yeah, you were ticked off...but realized that was part of said deck. Same with Mario....it gave you the ability to T1 or T2 someone, but also allowed for some staying power and comeback ability.
Many people say Kricket is a legit deck right now, tier 1 or 2. I've built it and played it. Ag'st a set up stage 2 deck, if they get anything going....you have a difficult time mid to late game.
I completely understand the argument agst Mario too.....it combines 2 differing types of play. Speed/rush w/ Lucario and a set up w/ a stage 2 line. Even KG told you and agreed with you....it shouldn't work, but it does for him and many others! (I dont even play Mario, I just know it is an effective deck.) I have never said Mario is BDIF....and I dont recall KG saying that either. He just says it is a good deck that he likes alot!
Keith
KingGengar
New Member
lol... just on the subject of deck promotion, I noticed once or twice someone commented that he (or she) didn't like "join us." Here's the inside scoop on that:
I'm a big horror movie buff, and "Evil Dead 2" is one of my faves. In that film, the demon tells Ash, "Join Us." 'nuff said.
I'm a big horror movie buff, and "Evil Dead 2" is one of my faves. In that film, the demon tells Ash, "Join Us." 'nuff said.
That's exactly the response I was expecting. How in the world can you say a deck is crap unless you've played against it in AT LEAST 2 Premier events, and beaten it every time you mu with it; Answer: YOU CAN'T! As for the response to 3) I have read every post in this topic, including the beginning. All that you guys keep saying OVER and OVER again is that Machamp isn't the best partner for Lucario. Now that may even be a valid point but for a MARIO deck *and I'm going to say this real slow for you* It-is-MAchamp-and-LucaRIO. If you were to team it with Blissy it's not Mario anymore is it? No, I believe you call it Ramen Truk.
Point made.
TY
P.S. If you don't like Mario.....DON'T PLAY IT!
Rainbowgym
Active Member
LOL and Ramen Truk isn't even the best way to play Lucario to be honest.
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